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Featured Jesus as Christ

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Sep 11, 2021.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    What reasons do you have for NOT believing that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?

    What reasons do you have for BELIEVING that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?
     
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  2. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    Lack of evidence
     
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  3. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus retired astronomer

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    The Resurrection and the rest of the Gospels.
     
  4. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    This is not Christianty's doctrine as the OP is about Jesus and not about the religion that grew up afterwards:
    • My intuition.
    • Meher Baba's statement that Jesus was an Avatar in this cycle.
    • The Avatar is God in human form according to Meher Baba
    • The sense of truth I get from a few parts of the Bible.
    • Ramakrishna's story about meeting Jesus in the spirit
    • Jesus lived in India mythology.
     
  5. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    History and the way legends grow over time. The society of the time was *very* superstitious by today's standards and so the legend grew and became a supernatural story.
     
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  6. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    He rejected that assertion whenever someone posed it.

    It would be an absurd theatrical "put-on" for God to walk around pretending to be a human. And it would also be fundamentally dishonest.

    As "the Christ", Jesus was the human embodiment/representation of God's divine spirit of love, wisdom, forgiveness, kindness, and generosity.
     
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  7. AlexanderG

    AlexanderG Active Member

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    1. I've done an examination of how every other religion seems to have started from later exaggerations or fables about an initial mundane set of events. The same goes for folk legends like Paul Bunyan, King Arthur, or Baba Yaga, as well as exaggerated supernatural feats of the founders of martial arts schools, like Morihei Ueshiba who founded Aikido. This is something humans do, with countless confirmed examples illustrating this tendency. By contrast, we have zero examples of confirmed miracles. Simple induction indicates that the Jesus stories arose from such legendary development. Biblical scholarship also tends to confirm that conclusion.

    2. There is a lack of supporting evidence for any of the specific claims about Jesus. In particular, there are no first hand accounts of anything Jesus said or did. The NT is a set of third-hand or many-hand, usually anonymous accounts, usually contradicted by other accounts in the NT, and unsubstantiated by any writings outside of the bible itself. Again, we have many other examples of religious zealots pushing false propaganda, or openly admitting that lying to promote their faith is acceptable, and zero examples of miracles actually occurring.

    3. I would have to sustain an incoherent worldview if the evidence provided was sufficient for me to accept the claims about Jesus. I would of course have to believe in Mormonism, since the accounts and circumstances are much better attested to. The evidence is far, far better for Mormonism (although still terrible). Islam also has better evidence. So do UFO sightings. All of them also make many mutually contradictory claims. So I would have to accept contradictions, and believe in all sorts of strange things.

    4. Separately, everything we've discovered by examining objective reality has yielded explanations that have no need for any god existing. Gods are beyond the realm of demonstration or confirmation, and claims about them are evidently indistinguishable from anything anyone could imagine or post hoc rationalize. Such belief has no justification, and no explanatory utility.

    5. As an internal critique, Christianity is incoherent. Yaweh and Jesus seem like opposite personalities with different goals and values. Free will cannot exist under an omnipotent, omniscient being who created us, nor would such a being derive any utility from our worship and subservience. A being that created a scenario containing hell cannot be omnibenevolent, and should be considered omnimalevolent. The theology is awash in contradictions, tensions, and incoherence that requires a cognitive dissonance I could not sustain. Nor have I heard apologetics that come close to harmonizing these clear problems.

    6. People who argue for "Jesus living as God" consistently make fallacious arguments, structuring their reasoning in a way that we've confirmed does not reliably lead to true conclusions. Given continuous Christian efforts over thousands of years to produce evidence or a good argument, this is a good indication that no valid, sound arguments for these claims currently exist. Belief is therefore not warranted.
     
    #7 AlexanderG, Sep 11, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
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  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Is the Bible, and all that the Bible reveals, not evidence enough?

    What evidence is lacking?
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Where did Jesus reject the assertion that he was God dwelling on earth?
     
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  10. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    1. Miracles having been occurring in the Christian Church since the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. There are numerous accounts and testimonies of such miracles.

    2. John 5:31. 'If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true'. Jesus intentionally chose a close group of apostles, who were to be his primary witnesses. It is their witness that is recorded in the New Testament, and I can see no contradictory statements. Maybe you could be specific in pointing some out.

    3. Once again, specific references are required to support your views on Islam and Mormonism, given that they fall outside the canon of scripture accepted by the Church. So what do you find so hard to believe about Jesus, in particular?

    4. As an atheist, you have no objective reality. Objectivity is for God alone.

    5. Is it wrong that a holy God should require his people to be holy?

    6. You might have convinced yourself, but not me! This argument of yours can only be applied to those poor souls who have failed to accept the need for faith in matters of God.
     
  11. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Since Jesus walked the earth, how many times has God walked on earth as a man, as Christ?
     
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Is superstition the same as faith in God? What evidence from the Bible suggests the followers of Jesus were superstitious?
     
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    No. It's confirmation bias. A non-christian (maybe a theologian or so have you) would have to come to the same conclusions after reading and/or studying the bible... they'd also have to conclude historically and objectively there is the supernatural for it to be taken as true/fact apart from scripture and other like testimonies. They also have to test the testimonials to know if it is true and line up but since jesus and the apostles (and witnesses) are not living, that's impossible to do.

    There seems to be a good enough historical evidence that a jesus existed (I assume) but not so much of god or a creator. They both need to have some form of existence to know they have anything to do with each other.
     
  14. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    When he was directly accused of claiming deifying himself he responded; "You say that I am". Not, "I am". He also pointed out several times that he was not "his father".
     
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  15. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Why would anybody care about convincing you?
     
  16. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    The two are not the same, but I do believe that faith in a deity is one form of superstition. But there are other types of superstition than that.

    Why do you limit it to evidence from the Bible? Evidence from other writings at the time show just how superstitious people were at the time. The eagerness of those in the Bible to believe rather unusual things (as I see them) is quite consistent with their being superstitious.
     
  17. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Any actual proof of the existence of a deity. Any proof that the Bible is a reliable exposition of what happened. Any basis to accept the Bible while rejecting all the other 'Holy Books' that tell stories that disagree with the Bible.

    And no reason at all to actually believe those testimonies.

    Why limit yourself to a collection of writings selected specifically to present a viewpoint? Why not consider all the other writings of the time that told wildly varying stories, which were often also accepted by the early believers?

    The claims that he was divine.

    I disagree. Objectivity comes from observation. There have been no observations of deities by reliable witnesses, so deities are (in my view) not objective.

    Depends on the specific rules. What God declares to be Holy may or may not be good.

    I do not agree that faith is a good thing. I find it to be a dereliction of our duty to think for ourselves.

    Zero. The same number of times (as I see it) since before Jesus walked the Earth.
     
  18. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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  19. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    It all comes down to how you define God

    People in agony might cry out "my body hurts". This proves that "my body" is not who I really am. So, who am I? Clearly you are the witness who knows "I am not the body". This witness is called Consciousness in Advaita. And Consciousness is God.

    The moment you realize this, you realize that in reality you are not the body, but the Witness = Consciousness = God

    Jesus has said, according to the Bible "I and my Father are one". Meaning, Jesus was aware that He is not the body, but He is the Witness (hence coincidentally (or not) Jehova Witnesses got their name).

    So, Jesus knew that He is in reality the Witness, Consciousness and also called God.
    Hence Jesus lived as God (in this Awareness) amongst men on earth
     
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  20. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    Uncounted times. Per Meher Baba, God becomes man as Avatar in a cycle of 7. The ones we know are Zoroaster, Krishna, Rama, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad (in spite of Islamic theology) and Meher Baba said he was the 7th in this cycle.

    Meher Baba outlined the reasons for the Avatar, the Christ to take birth:

    The Avatar appears in different forms, under different names, at different times, in different parts of the world. As his appearance always coincides with the spiritual birth of man, so the period immediately preceding his manifestation is always one in which humanity suffers from the pangs of the approaching birth. Man seems more than ever enslaved by desire, more than ever driven by greed, held by fear, swept by anger. The strong dominate the weak; the rich oppress the poor; large masses of people are exploited for the benefit of the few who are in power. The individual, who finds no peace or rest, seeks to forget himself in excitement. Immorality increases, crime flourishes, religion is ridiculed. Corruption spreads throughout the social order. Class and national hatreds are aroused and fostered. Wars break out. Humanity grows desperate. There seems to be no possibility of stemming the tide of destruction.

    At this moment the Avatar appears. Being the total manifestation of God in human form, he is like a gauge against which man can measure what he is and what he may become. He trues the standard of human values by interpreting them in terms of divinely human life...
     
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