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jesus and paul are polar opposites...

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by waitasec, Aug 30, 2011.

  1. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    yes the context was the last supper?
    we have established he was speaking to his apostles...
    not the sheep...

    in luke jesus is laying out the guide lines for those who wish to follow him
    and in corinthians paul is pretty much adding his personal subjective understanding for those who never met jesus...

    do not judge others vs. judge others righteously...
     
  2. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    but we are not talking about galatians.
    we are discussing corinthians...the stick in the wheel.
    it is irreconcilable
    paul was just improvising it seems.
     
  3. javajo

    javajo Well-Known Member

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    I look at the whole of Paul's writings and in context. I'm sure people can find sayings of Jesus and twist them to seem irreconcilable. Lets look at the first placed and greatest of Paul's Epistles, the Book of Romans. Romans 2:

    1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
    3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

    He goes on to say in chapter 3:

    23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    I believe it means, basically, we don't judge since we are all guilty. But all may be freely justified by grace through faith in Christ. So nobody can boast or be self-righteous or need judge others about their salvation on this earth. What takes place later in Heaven or in civil matters and other matters among believers is something else.
     
  4. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    Jesus words about not judging others were said during his 'sermon on the mount'
    He was speaking to a wide jewish audience. Some were his disciples, some became his disciples and some were already his close followers along with his 12 apostles. Matthew chapters 5-8 is the Sermon on the mount as recorded by Matthew. Luke Chapter 7 records small portions of the sermon on the mount.

    Paul was speaking about annointed christians who would eventually be ruling in heaven as kings.

    Two very different audiences and two very different contexts.
     
  5. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    if paul is writing to one church and says believers are to settle disputes while jesus says don't even go there. the reason i picked corinthians is because that is where i found the inconsistency...
    paul said settle disputes in house?
    where as jesus said there shouldn't be any?
    jesus was a radical, paul was mediocre.

    "If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly..."

    "14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? "
    call me crazy but passages like these are rather self righteous...
     
  6. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    so when he said do not judge others, who was that intended for?
    his followers or his followers?
     
  7. Villager

    Villager Active Member

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    '"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." Jn 7:24 NASB

    Did Paul contradict Jesus? Did Jesus contradict himself? The word krino has the same range of meanings and values that it has in English. It has negative value in the sentence "He put people off with his judgmentalism" and positive value in "He failed because he lacked judgment." In Jesus spoke of judgement in Mt 7:1 he was using a play on words, the first krino referring to human criticism, or finding fault, the second to the final judgment of God. A good translation, again using a play on words, would be:

    "Do not find fault, in case fault is found with you."

    But Jesus' command is indeed to 'judge with righteous judgment'. His followers are to be on their guard, to be vigilant, to watch, because there exist false teachings like those of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

    So there is a difference between thinking oneself better than another and recognising wrong, wherever it may occur. The Christian is of course primarily concerned with wrong deeds and thoughts in his or her own life.
     
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  8. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    **sigh**
    the context of that passage was in response to this question:

    “How did this man get such learning without having been taught?”

    who is this man? jesus. in other words jesus is righteous...anything he does is godly...not his followers
    jesus specifically says not to judge others. period.
     
  9. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    those words apply to the other sheep.... not the little flock who would be given seats in the kingdom of God to rule the nations.
     
  10. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    who are the other sheep?

    jesus told his followers not to judge
    he told his apostles they would sit with him in judgement of others...




    so who was on 1st and what was on second
    :rolleyes:
     
  11. javajo

    javajo Well-Known Member

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    I don't know...Third base! :)
     
  12. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    gotcha... :D
     
  13. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    you and me and everyone else who has the prospect of living forever on earth ;)
     
  14. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    why are we under a different standard...?

    does matthew 25:34-46 doesn't apply to you and me and everyone else who has the prospect of living forever on earth?
     
  15. javajo

    javajo Well-Known Member

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    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another...(Mathew 25)

    There he goes judging others, what a double standard. What would Paul think of him? :sarcastic
     
  16. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    its not a different standard. Its a different destination and a different type of responsibility is given to annointed ones. They will sit as judges over people of the earth when they are in their heavenly position.

    Please remember Pauls words were not about condemning the sins of others. It was about working out differences and issues between 'each other'
     
  17. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    it is a different standard if it is a different destination and responsibility

    pauls words implies his arrogance
     
  18. javajo

    javajo Well-Known Member

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    3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
    5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
    6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
    7So then neither is he that planteth (Paul) any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
    18Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
    20And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

    21Therefore let no man glory in men. 1 Cor. 3

    Oh, there goes that arrogant Paul...:rolleyes:
     
  19. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    i was thinking about the passage where unbelievers are referred to as wicked, evil and unclean ... clearly paul was an elitist by comparing himself as superior to unbelievers
     
  20. javajo

    javajo Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I know. I was just goofing around a bit. I don't know if you want to know what I think about that. Paul taught that we were all wicked, evil and unclean, etc. but through no merit or goodness or great work or righteousness of our own, we have been made new creations in Christ by trusting in Christ. We're not better than others, just forgiven and given his righteousness. Now we have Christ living in us, empowering us and helping us not to be like we once were. So, not because we are better, but because we could slip, we avoid people and places that would cause us to stumble. Its like if I was a junkie and got clean, I'm not better than them, but it would not be wise to go hang out in the alley with them right away. Or if I had a business partner, I would not want an unbeliever who may not follow the same guidelines as I who may have some unscrupulous business practices and such.
     
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