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jesus and paul are polar opposites...

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by waitasec, Aug 30, 2011.

  1. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    i don't get it...
    did jesus say that you are to judge your neighbor or not?
     
  2. javajo

    javajo Well-Known Member

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    Well, Jesus did say:

    Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. John 7:24

    Both Jesus and Paul said not to judge people pertaining to sin and the law and eternal life. But we HAVE to judge in matters of earthly civil law, which is what Paul was saying. And he wanted them to suffer loss rather than go to court and to set up the least among them to judge and keep it amongst themselves. Paul said:

    Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. 1 Corinthians 4:5
     
  3. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    Jesus was speaking about sins and personal preferences and the like. If my neighbor wants to color his hair purple with poker-dots, who am I to judge him? Or if my neighbor wants to disobey Gods laws regarding certain matters, who am I to judge him?

    We do not pronounce judgment on each other because our judgments are worthless. It is God who judges all people.

    Thats what Jesus was talking about. Our only responsibility toward each other is to show love and respect for each other.
     
  4. the-jesusist

    the-jesusist Emmanuel

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    “Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you” (Matthew 6:5-6). I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. (1 Timothy 2:8) Which are you? You cannot be both. Jesus said how and when to pray. Paul said "I desire". Which is more important, what Jesus said, or what Paul desired?
     
  5. javajo

    javajo Well-Known Member

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    Why can't you be both? Jesus said where two or three are gathered in his name he will be in the midst of them. We pray privately and corporately and it is Biblical. Besides, Jesus, who is God, inspired the epistles of Paul, they were God inspired, God's Word, Jesus' Word. We can understand them together in harmony.
     
  6. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    Jesus is speaking directly to his 12 apostles....not to all the disciples. Only his 12 chosen ones were offered positions in the heavenly kingdom. There are only a limited number of places available for the selected ones to rule as kings and priests and judges over the nations of earth. (12 tribes being figurative for all the nations)

    Jesus said that he had 'other sheep' who were not counted in among the 'little flock' John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd

    It is that little flock who will rule in heaven with Christ to judge people of the 'other sheep'....these ones make up all the nations of the earth.
    That is what Paul was talking about when he said to members of the 'little flock', "do you not know that you, (the little flock), will also judge angels" .... they would be in such a position when they joined Christ in heaven to rule as kings and priests.
     
    #86 Pegg, Sep 15, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
  7. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    john 7
    14 Not until halfway through the festival did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach. 15 The Jews there were amazed and asked, “How did this man get such learning without having been taught?”
    16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. 19 Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me

    20 “You are demon-possessed,” the crowd answered. “Who is trying to kill you?”

    21 Jesus said to them, “I did one miracle, and you are all amazed. 22 Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a boy on the Sabbath. 23 Now if a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing a man’s whole body on the Sabbath? 24 Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”

    this is interesting.
    your choice of scripture is about jesus stating a case about who he is...god

    i do not understand how this has anything to do with luke 6
    which isn't about proving who you are but that you are not to judge your neighbor.
     
  8. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    thank you for clarifying...
    so were you there?
    was he speaking to you?

    what does this have anything to do with
    24 A dispute also arose among THEM as to which of THEM was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to THEM, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But YOU [THEM] are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among YOU [THEM] should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among YOU [THEM] as one who serves. 28 YOU [THEM] are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on YOU [THEM] a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that YOU [THEM] may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
    he was talking to THEM the apostles...not the sheep, but his closest friends who conspired with jesus.

    16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

    you surely have visions of grandeur don't you?
     
  9. javajo

    javajo Well-Known Member

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    Ok I'll give you that. But the issue is that you believe Jesus says don't judge others while Paul says do judge others, yet when we look at more verses we see he certainly does teach us not to judge others. Isolating one instance in which he talks of judging civil matters from the rest of the many other verses is not good interpretation. Here is some of what Paul had to say about it:

    Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. Romans 14:13

    But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Romans 14:10


    Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. Romans 14:3


    Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. 1 Cor. 4:5


    Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Colossians 2:16
     
  10. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    he also said:
    2 cor 6
    14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common?

    if that isn't a judgement call that is in direct violation of what jesus taught i don't know what is.

    for the sake of argument...jesus is god laying out the guide lines for how his creation are to treat one another...he is in the position to make a such a statement not paul, right?
    did paul hang out with the outcasts and sinners as jesus did? no he didn't. he separated himself...i thought jesus hung out with the out casts of society..prostitutes and tax collectors....no, not paul...he was an elitist....wasn't he a pharisee at one point?
     
  11. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    those words wont apply to me because im not going to heaven... but if I was chosen for the role, then the words would apply to me.

    it is the little flock ( his chosen apostles) who will be ruling in heaven as kings and judges. They WILL be sitting as judges over all the people of earth as Paul stated. The 'other sheep' refer to those people of the nations who Jesus will be king over.
     
  12. javajo

    javajo Well-Known Member

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    You could look at it like that. But all one has to do is ask if the person believes in Christ to know. He also said that while we are to be separate, yet not altogether separate or we'd have to leave the world. Jesus actually taught that we would be judged if we begin to eat and drink with the drunken and such. I think balance is in order, as it says, "bad company corrupts good habits". Jesus was with publicans and sinners, yet without sin. We have to be careful in those matters. We reserve ultimate judgment for God, but we still pick our friends carefully while being friendly to all.

    Actually, Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles, whom the Jews had looked down upon and even rebuked Peter for separating from the Gentiles with the other Jews. Paul tried to be all things to all people that he might win some. Paul did not consider himself elite, he considered all his 'credentials' as dung for Christ. He also said this of himself:

    9For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. 10We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
    11Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
    12And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
    13Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day. 1 Cor. 4

    Dang, I'm tired, I gotta go now. Have a nice night!
     
  13. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    ooooookay

    so who will be judging the world with jesus again?
    those whom paul was writing to?

    you lost me...

    jesus and paul are polar opposites.

    jesus taught humility and meekness
    paul didn't...he called unbelievers wicked...paul was never in a position to say such things...didn't jesus say:

    matthew 7:21-23

    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!
     
  14. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    a very small number of anointed christians will rule with Christ. If you are an anointed christian, Pauls words apply to you.
     
  15. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    it meaning the bible...?
    then the bible says good habits are insecure...
    if good habits are corruptible then maybe those aren't good habits :shrug:

    you can pick your friends just don't pick your friends nose
    :D
    you too
     
  16. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    and who are the anointed?
    the poor
    the hungary
    the "least of these"?

    or the proud self righteous ones who find the justification to judge
     
  17. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    the first of them were the 12 apostles

    I dont think God would choose any proud self righteous ones to join in the kingdom because he only wants people who are worthy of the position.
     
  18. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    then paul would be one of those self righteous ones for saying that believers would be in a position to judge the world, when jesus didn't say such a thing.
     
  19. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    When you dont see the context of the verses you are talking about, then i can see why you would think this way.

    but considering the context has been explained, it seems clear you are not concerned with keeping things in context which is unfortunate.
     
  20. javajo

    javajo Well-Known Member

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    I think Paul fought hard against self-righteousness, legalism, and holier than thou folks. The book of Galatians comes to mind. He said in Romans 10:3, "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." He taught that when one trusts Christ, Christ's righteousness is imputed unto them in place of their own. Jesus and Paul taught us not to judge each other on earth, and while God will judge the world, how some may participate is not said. I think they will see God's judgment and acknowledge it is good, true, just and fair. I also believe once we entered the Age of Grace or Church Age, God revealed things that were not known until then to Paul. I guess if you want to believe Jesus and Paul are polar opposites, that is your right and I respect that. I just understand it in a different light.
     
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