jesus and paul are polar opposites...

[Villager]

**sigh**
the context of that passage was in response to this question:

“How did this man get such learning without having been taught?”

who is this man? jesus. in other words jesus is righteous.

That was for people to judge true or not.

 

[waitasec]

That was for people to judge true or not.

no. if you mean people as in the general sense of the word. it was for the jews (the lost sheep of israel) to understand who jesus was...
context...

how do you translate "do not judge"?

 

[Villager]

no. if you mean people as in the general sense of the word. it was for the jews (the lost sheep of israel) to understand who jesus was...
context...

It made no difference who the people were. Each person had to make a judgement about Christ, as Simeon prophesied of Israel.

how do you translate "do not judge"?

How do I interpret the Greek? As in my previous post.

 

[waitasec]

It made no difference who the people were. Each person had to make a judgement about Christ, as Simeon prophesied of Israel.

excuse me wasn't jesus trying to convince the lost tribe of israel throughout his ministry who he was?
that is what this passage you posted is about. judging jesus as god...he was the one who had the audacity to forgive, yes?
jesus taught not to judge other people...

How do I interpret the Greek? As in my previous post.

no. how do you interpret do not judge...do not condemn...love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back...give to everyone who asks you..

 

[Villager]

excuse me wasn't jesus trying to convince the lost tribe of israel throughout his ministry who he was?

Yes, and to try to convince is to ask to exercise judgment.

how do you interpret do not judge...do not condemn.

Indeed. Not the same as "Trust the Pharisees."

 

[waitasec]

Yes, and to try to convince is to ask to exercise judgment.

quite a quandary then...

Indeed. Not the same as "Trust the Pharisees."

do you posses the power to forgive one of their sins too?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

i don't get it...

Now there's something I can agree with.

 

[waitasec]

Now there's something I can agree with.

yeah, did jesus say that you are to judge your neighbor or not?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

OP: Secular America's definition of "judgement" borders on delusional. I don't blame you for buying into it because it is the conventional "wisdom" of our day and age that the sin of judgement is that act of judging people's character. The Biblical definition of the sin of judgement is closing the book on someone. An example of this would be not even trying to correct someone who'd gone astray because you assumed they'd reject your advice. The examples of Jesus discerning that people's character was lacking leading him to correct them is too numerous to count. He also called his followers to do the same, the stories warning about the wolves in sheep's clothing are examples of this. We've talked about this before, if you want to believe nonsensical notions about the Bible even after Biblical evidence is presented to the contrary there's not much left to say.

 

[waitasec]

OP: Secular America's definition of "judgement" borders on delusional. I don't blame you for buying into it because it is the conventional "wisdom" of our day and age that the sin of judgement is that act of judging people's character.

so what is the secular definition of judgement?

The Biblical definition of the sin of judgement is closing the book on someone.

from what i gather only god can do that, am i wrong?

An example of this would be not even trying to correct someone who'd gone astray because you assumed they'd reject your advice.

call me crazy but i wouldn't take financial advise from someone who is in debt...
nor will i take relationship advice from someone who's never been in one

The examples of Jesus discerning that people's character was lacking leading him to correct them is too numerous to count. He also called his followers to do the same,

people meaning fellow believers
i'd like you to point out where jesus commanded believers to judge unbelievers

the stories warning about the wolves in sheep's clothing are examples of this.

matthew 7:15 is in regards to people who claim to be believers
"...Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,"
besides, you've failed to reconcile your interpretation with luke 6... or lets keep it in matthew 7
1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

We've talked about this before, if you want to believe nonsensical notions about the Bible even after Biblical evidence is presented to the contrary there's not much left to say.

you seem a bit bothered and responses of this nature only confirm my notion
about the bible...

thank you for giving me so much to work with.

 

[javajo]

This is an interesting article from http://carm.org/questions/other-questions/did-jesus-and-paul-teach-same-thing: (It will take 2 posts...)

Did Jesus and Paul teach the same thing?


Some critics of Christianity try and set Paul against Jesus. They will often claim that what Paul taught is not what Jesus said and that present-day Christianity is derived not from Jesus, but from Paul's teaching. This is an erroneous claim that does not fit the facts. It is easy to take various scriptures out of context and try and set one person against another -- as many critics of Christianity have done. Nevertheless, we can confidently expect that Jesus and Paul taught the same thing. Granted, Paul focused more on theological issues than Jesus did, but nothing Paul said is contrary to Christ.
Luke wrote both the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts. In Acts 9 Luke records the events surrounding Paul's conversion. We see that Jesus himself called Paul and sent him to be an apostle. If Paul and Jesus are not in agreement, then why would Jesus call Paul to be his apostle? Jesus is God in flesh and would therefore know all things. Jesus would certainly have known what Paul would teach which, it seems, is one of the reasons Jesus called him.
In addition, we can quickly see by examining what Jesus said we find parallels in what Paul said. Following is a brief alphabetical list comparing the words of Christ with the words of Paul. We can clearly see that they were indeed in agreement and that the critics who would set Paul against Christ don't know what they're talking about.


(List is on next post)

 

[javajo]

1. Alive in Christ
   1. Jesus
      1. "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes," (John 5:21).
   2. Paul
      1. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive," (1 Cor. 15:22).
2. Anxiety
   1. Jesus
      1. "For this reason I say to you, do not be anxious for your life, as to what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, as to what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body than clothing?" (Matt. 6:25).
   2. Paul
      1. "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God," (Phil. 4:6).
3. Atonement
   1. Jesus
      1. "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep," (John 10:11)
   2. Paul
      1. "and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma," (Eph. 5:2).
4. Deity of Jesus
   1. Jesus
      1. "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am," (John 8:58). Compare with Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."
   2. Paul
      1. "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," (Col. 2:9). See also, Phil. 2:5-8.
5. Forgiveness
   1. Jesus
      1. "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you," (Matt. 6:14).
   2. Paul
      1. "And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you," (Eph. 4:32).
6. Jesus is the only way
   1. Jesus
      1. "Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me," (John 14:6).
   2. Paul
      1. "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," (1 Tim. 2:5).
7. Justification by faith
   1. Jesus
      1. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24). See also John 3:16-18; Luke 18:9-13.
   2. Paul
      1. "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
8. Law, the
   1. Jesus
      1. "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17).
   2. Paul
      1. "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law," (Rom. 3:31).
      2. "What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise," (Gal. 3:17).
9. Law, living the
   1. Jesus
      1. "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself," (Matt. 19:18-19).
   2. Paul
      1. "Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law," (Rom. 13:8-10)
10. Predestination
    1. Jesus
       1. "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given," (Matt. 19:11).
       2. "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
       3. "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day," (John 6:44).
       4. "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father," (John 6:65).
    2. Paul
       1. "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will... 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will," (Eph. 1:5,11).
11. Resurrection
    1. Jesus
       1. "The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men; 23 and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day," (Matt. 17:22-23).
    2. Paul
       1. "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," (1 Cor. 15:3-4).
12. Rewards and Punishment
    1. Jesus
       1. "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds," (Matt. 16:27).
    2. Paul
       1. "who will render to every man according to his deeds," (Rom. 2:6).
13. Sinfulness of man
    1. Jesus
       1. "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man," (Matt. 15:19-20).
    2. Paul
       1. "There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one," (Rom. 3:11-12).
14. Tradition
    1. Jesus
       1. "And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matt. 15:3).
    2. Paul
       1. "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ," (Col. 2:8).
15. Works Righteousness denied
    1. Jesus
       1. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness," (Matt. 7:22-23).
    2. Paul
       1. "Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith," (Gal. 3:11).

As you can see, this brief list demonstrates that Jesus and Paul both taught the same thing. http://carm.org/questions/other-questions/did-jesus-and-paul-teach-same-thing

 

[-Peacemaker-]

so what is the secular definition of judgement?


from what i gather only god can do that, am i wrong?


call me crazy but i wouldn't take financial advise from someone who is in debt...
nor will i take relationship advice from someone who's never been in one


people meaning fellow believers
i'd like you to point out where jesus commanded believers to judge unbelievers

matthew 7:15 is in regards to people who claim to be believers
"...Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,"
besides, you've failed to reconcile your interpretation with luke 6... or lets keep it in matthew 7
1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?




you seem a bit bothered and responses of this nature only confirm my notion
about the bible...

thank you for giving me so much to work with.

You must be referring to my breaking of the commandment "thou shalt not get irritated." hehehehe.....

You seem to think I'm lying to you about the message of Jesus and his behavior. I don't see how anyone who's actually opened a Bible could disagree with me on this. Still, I will Illustrate my point through verses. It really can't get much clearer.

The story of the adulterer about to be stoned

John 8 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

In the case of this nonbeliever, Jesus doesn't pronounce sentance on her and so models for us what it means to not commit the Biblical sin of judging their neighbor. He does make a judgement about her character and tells her to straighten up. You're fond of calling me your judge and while I might've said some of your beliefs are wrong I don't recall proposing that we come to your house and beat you with two by fours as penalty for your sins.

Matthew 4:17 "From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.""

He had to tell people that they were sinners if he was going to tell them they were supposed to repent of something. What would you say to Jesus if he told you that you lacked integrity and that you needed to clean up your act?" Would you tell him to stop judging you?


Matthew 23: 16&#8220;Woe to you, blind guides! You say, &#8216;If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.&#8217;</SPAN> 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?</SPAN> 18You also say, &#8216;If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.&#8217;</SPAN> 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?</SPAN> 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.</SPAN> 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.</SPAN> 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God&#8217;s throne and by the one who sits on it.</SPAN>

Here's Jesus chastising people who are righteous by their own standards as opposed to God's and leading others to adhere to what he taught were false methods of attaining righteousness (ie methods outside believing in him and his sacrifice for sins). We never see anyone like that these days huh?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

waitasec: I've gotten the impression that you think Jesus' ministry was one that was primarily to his own followers. Perhaps this will help clear things up.

Luke 5:32 "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to REPENTANCE."

 

[waitasec]

waitasec: I've gotten the impression that you think Jesus' ministry was one that was primarily to his own followers. Perhaps this will help clear things up.

Luke 5:32 "Icame not to call the righteous, but sinners to REPENTANCE."

lets clarify something...
are you jesus?

 

[waitasec]

You seem to think I'm lying to you about the message of Jesus and his behavior.

well there was a mis-judement
no i am not accusing you of being a liar...i'm accusing you of being pretentious

I don't see how anyone who's actually opened a Bible could disagree with me on this. Still, I will Illustrate my point through verses. It really can't get much clearer.

The story of the adulterer about to be stoned

John 8 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, &#8220;Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?&#8221;
11 &#8220;No one, sir,&#8221; she said. &#8220;Then neither do I condemn you,&#8221; Jesus declared. &#8220;Go now and leave your life of sin.&#8221;

well lets apply this to you, are you sinless? can you judge others knowing you have sinned? shouldn't you be one of those guys that walked away?

In the case of this nonbeliever, Jesus doesn't pronounce sentance on her and so models for us what it means to not commit the Biblical sin of judging their neighbor. He does make a judgement about her character and tells her to straighten up. You're fond of calling me your judge and while I might've said some of your beliefs are wrong I don't recall proposing that we come to your house and beat you with two by fours as penalty for your sins.

well being god (supposedly) i think he is in the position to do that, why are you putting yourself in god's position?

Matthew 4:17 "From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.""

He had to tell people that they were sinners if he was going to tell them they were supposed to repent of something.

yes, that was his ministry.
you will be known by your fruits (yours seem sour and rotten)...
he also says...judge not lest ye be judged.

What would you say to Jesus if he told you that you lacked integrity and that you needed to clean up your act?" Would you tell him to stop judging you?

i'd say, mind your own business especially if i haven't hurt anyone.

Here's Jesus chastising people who are righteous by their own standards as opposed to God's and leading others to adhere to what he taught were false methods of attaining righteousness (ie methods outside believing in him and his sacrifice for sins). We never see anyone like that these days huh?

are you jesus?

jesus said...blessed are the meek.
those who judge others are by no means meek.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

lets clarify something...
are you jesus?

Here's a a story called the Great Commission

Matthew ch. 28
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, &#8220;All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.&#8221;

He says to go and tell people all over the world that they are sinners and need to repent when he talks about making disciples of all nations. He tells them to teach the entire world about areas of their lives that need correction. In other words Jesus is commanding his disciples to model their ministries after his. Is Jesus actually commanding his disciples to be judgemental or could it be that your definition of what constitutes judgementalism is not the Biblical definition? My point is that if you have a problem with Christians saying that things you believe in or do are evil then you have a problem with what Christ has commanded his followers to do. Again, nobody is proposing that we hand down a sentance for your sins as that IS judging. Face it, only the enemy of our souls creates false doctrines in which it's sinful to correct others.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

waitasec: Here's the story of JC sending out the 72. It's another instance of JC sending people out with the authority to do the same works he did and preach the same message which is one of calling sinners to repentance. They're called to teach what the Kingdom of God looks like which requires teaching God's take on what's right and wrong. We see that JC is calling Christians to actually be his mouthpiece as we see in verse 16, a task we admittingly fall short in often. What he isn't saying is that he's God and only he can tell people what's right and wrong. He's saying his follower's words and his own words are supposed to be the identical.


Luke 10
Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two

1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[a] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2 He told them, &#8220;The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3 Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.

5 &#8220;When you enter a house, first say, &#8216;Peace to this house.&#8217; 6 If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. 7 Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.
8 &#8220;When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, &#8216;The kingdom of God has come near to you.&#8217; 10 But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11 &#8216;Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.&#8217; 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
13 &#8220;Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[b] 16 &#8220;Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.&#8221;

 

[Pegg]

i think people neglect to take into consideration that the majority of Pauls letters were written for gentile congregations who were apart from the mosaic law.

a completely different audience to those whom Jesus preached

 

[waitasec]

Here's a a story called the Great Commission

Matthew ch. 28
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

and they will know you by your fruit...that's how you teach. when you take matters into your own hands because of your lack of faith then that is how i see most fundamental christians...insecure by their controlling nature...where is the faith?

He says to go and tell people all over the world that they are sinners and need to repent when he talks about making disciples of all nations.[
He tells them to teach the entire world about areas of their lives that need correction. In other words Jesus is commanding his disciples to model their ministries after his. Is Jesus actually commanding his disciples to be judgemental or could it be that your definition of what constitutes judgementalism is not the Biblical definition? My point is that if you have a problem with Christians saying that things you believe in or do are evil then you have a problem with what Christ has commanded his followers to do. Again, nobody is proposing that we hand down a sentance for your sins as that IS judging. Face it, only the enemy of our souls creates false doctrines in which it's sinful to correct others.

he also says shake the dust off of you feet...

so go and mind your own business and stop subjecting people to YOUR religious belief....
go on, shake the dust off of your feet...shake it real good