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Featured Jesus and Pantheism

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Aug 20, 2019.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    was jesus a pantheist; when he claimed the Father was in him, or the kingdom of God came from within?




    John 14:10

    or

    Luke 17:21
     
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  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I don't think so, strictly speaking. There's a nuance of theological difference between all things being a manifestation of God (pantheism) and God being present within all things (Xtian mysticism). I believe the latter. I believe God is present within all things. I think what Jesus is stressing here is the unity of creation.
     
  3. FooYang

    FooYang Active Member

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    No

    No, that's Monism/Monotheism.
     
  4. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    No.
     
  5. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    evidently jesus and the bible doesn't limit god to being just present in everything but everything being present in god.

    Isaiah 45:5

    and

    John 14:2
     
  6. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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  7. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    That's not how I read either of those two passages.
     
  8. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    or how about

    colossians 3:11
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    No. I believe It is one God in all His children. However only Jesus is one with the Father.
     
  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe there is no doubt that God is everywhere but as the ruling Spirit inside He is only in the Elect.
     
  11. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Yeah, but not even this is pantheism -- at least not as I understand it. Pantheism is the thought that the things themselves are gods -- trees, oceans, stars. I suppose the first two sentences of the second example night be pantheistic, but then it makes a marked transition to panentheism. Which is the Xtian idea of the "Sacramental Universe." In panentheism, all things do emanate from God, and God is present in all things. But all things are not God -- that is, not to be worshiped. It's a subtle and sometimes clouded differentiation.

    "In him we live and move and have our being" is not pantheistic -- it is panentheistic.
     
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  12. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    See, all being one in Christ is different than all things being Christ. As I said, it's a subtle and not always crystal clear demarcation. God's presence can be in a tree, but the tree is not, itself, God.
     
  13. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    This notion of division between "who's in" and "who's out" is an outdated, imperial notion and, frankly, power play that I believe was foisted on the early church by the Empire. It's time for that notion to be laid aside. It no longer serves either the household of Christ or the world. In fact, it runs afoul of the whole point of Matthew's Gospel. Sheep? Goats? Wheat? Weeds? Details! Never mind the perceived differences. Let God work that out in God's time.
     
  14. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Yeah, good point.

    Seems specific, though, ie it isn't 'everything' like in usual description of pantheism.

    Now, how I interpret these verses, by, and in,

    Is because God isn't completely like us. His god nature is different, in other words. That's why He is a separate being, and not pantheism.

    The construct is the sameness, that isn't God, in other words.
    • that being said, these verses match my theistic etc belief, as opposed to 'telling me that'..
    Thats how I can explain that, i already know what it means.

    By the way, this is what, "theism for atheists' means, theism without faith. I presented that a while back, however its a bit advanced for these types of discussions and forum interaction..

    Good finds though.
     
  15. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Good way of explaining that idea.
     
    #17 Desert Snake, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  16. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    As a side note, this relates to why 'materialism' therefore arguments are bad, though they don't really realize why.

    An anti-cosmic satanist , or a materialist, though perhaps winning a type of "moralist" argument against me, therefore would need to explain what they mean by cosmic, since they lose the materialism argument, and aren't aware that they would lose the ' non-materialism' argument', also.

    In other words, they need to know more, to make a materialism argument [which wouldn't work, then make a non materialism argument, which also wouldn't work. So, perhaps they mean something else, otherwise they lose both arguments.

    All they [might win, is at best, a type of moralism argument.
     
    #18 Desert Snake, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  17. steveb1

    steveb1 Member

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    More like Jesus was a panentheist. Pantheism identifies God and world. Jesus, on the other hand - as in panENtheism - saw God both in the world and outside the world. He saw God as being both "here" (immanent) and "more than here" (transcendent) - which is the essence of panENtheism.
     
  18. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    What is really occuring here, is that the moralism arguments themselves, aren't good.

    This can occur with christians, satanists, whatever.
     
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