oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Jesus and John..... what were their real missions?
This thread proposes that the missions of both John the Baptist and Jesus differed from those as presented by Christianity.
1. Most Jews of Traconitus, Iturea, Decapolis, Galilee, Perea, Idumea, Judea and beyond felt bound to trek to Jerusalem as often as possible to make sacrifice and gain spiritual/physical/placebo cleansing.
2. During the three great feasts all the suburbs around Jerusalem would have been crammed full of visitors, and I expect that every inn was packed full, every bed taken, and that the locals were charging premium prices to fleece the arrivals as much as possible.
3. Every meal and service would have cost top-shekel.
4. On arrival at the Temple sacrificial lambs were purchased, and I would guess that these cost heavily loaded prices.
5. Sacrificial services were charged at large fees (no doubt). This was a huge money-go-round and about 2000 priests were all required to be present to provide expensive services to hard working and mostly poor visitors.
6. If all that was not enough, no province's money was any good in the temple and so all currency had to be exchanged for Temple coinage and the exchange rate would have been huge. I have read that Rome ordered a lamb-kidney count at one great feast and that can only mean that a % of the exchange fees went back to Rome. I have often wondered whether the coin that was shown to Jesus stamped with Caesar's head was Temple currency...?
7. I reckon that the whole redemption package was one huge corrupt money spinning wickedness, carried out by greedy, careless, hypocritical, quislings.... and worse.
8. I wonder whether Judas-the-Galilean's movement was against all of the above, especially the exchange-rate taxation accounting process?
Now, that's my proposal, but let's look at what John thought about it all, a wilderness dweller surviving as close to self-subsistence as a human can, he came out of the wilds to the Jordan, where thousands of families trekked past Samaria to reach Judea, and he offered them remission from their sins for little or nothing, by immersion in the jordan. By offering such a spiritual and physical service was he simply saying, 'Don't go to the Temple!'.... ?
MATTHEW: {1:4} John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. {1:5} And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
MATTHEW {3:7} But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
I propose that the people flocked to him in their thousands. Temple takings would have fallen. Exchange fees would have fallen. The Jerusalem and suburb locals would have reduced takings. Pilate could not act against John because John was working from the East bank of the Jordan and out of his jurisdiction, and so Herod Antipas was required to send a force to arrest John. Also, other Jews may have been avoiding Temple cleansing elsewhere, and some of these must also have been doing so within Pilate's jurisdiction.
LUKE {13:1} There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
I believe that Jesus supported John's mission, and was also baptising with his own disciples as well. Look what he said as he quoted Hosea. ({6:6} For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.)
MATTHEW {9:13} But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew {12:6} But I say unto you, That in this place is [one] greater than the temple. {12:7} But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice................
I wonder whether he was performing cleansings in the Sea of Galilee as well as in the Jordan, but, ok, this is not recorded. ....?
MARK {3:7} But Jesus withdrew himself with his disciples to the sea: and a great multitude
from Galilee followed him, and from Judaea, {3:8} And from Jerusalem, and from Idumaea, and [from] beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him.
............and the reactions...
MARK {1:27} And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine [is] this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.
MARK {2:6} But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, {2:7}
Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
But G-Mark suggests that he failed to gather as much support in Galilee as he needed, and so in a last huge attempt to win support he went to the Great Temple, demonstrated against the sacificial sellers and money exchangers and picketed the Temple Courts two days running.
Mark {11:15} And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; {11:16} And would not suffer that any man should carry [any] vessel through the temple. {11:17} And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
MARK {11:27} And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders, {11:28} And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things? {11:29} And Jesus
answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. {11:30} The baptism of John, was [it] from heaven, or of men? answer me.
And so I propose that if the Gospel of Mark is read with the above in mind that it can show that jesus's mission was simply for his own people, the working Jews, against the corrupt and greedy priesthood and the crushing costs of redemption at the Temple and for visitors around Jerusalem.
This thread proposes that the missions of both John the Baptist and Jesus differed from those as presented by Christianity.
1. Most Jews of Traconitus, Iturea, Decapolis, Galilee, Perea, Idumea, Judea and beyond felt bound to trek to Jerusalem as often as possible to make sacrifice and gain spiritual/physical/placebo cleansing.
2. During the three great feasts all the suburbs around Jerusalem would have been crammed full of visitors, and I expect that every inn was packed full, every bed taken, and that the locals were charging premium prices to fleece the arrivals as much as possible.
3. Every meal and service would have cost top-shekel.
4. On arrival at the Temple sacrificial lambs were purchased, and I would guess that these cost heavily loaded prices.
5. Sacrificial services were charged at large fees (no doubt). This was a huge money-go-round and about 2000 priests were all required to be present to provide expensive services to hard working and mostly poor visitors.
6. If all that was not enough, no province's money was any good in the temple and so all currency had to be exchanged for Temple coinage and the exchange rate would have been huge. I have read that Rome ordered a lamb-kidney count at one great feast and that can only mean that a % of the exchange fees went back to Rome. I have often wondered whether the coin that was shown to Jesus stamped with Caesar's head was Temple currency...?
7. I reckon that the whole redemption package was one huge corrupt money spinning wickedness, carried out by greedy, careless, hypocritical, quislings.... and worse.
8. I wonder whether Judas-the-Galilean's movement was against all of the above, especially the exchange-rate taxation accounting process?
Now, that's my proposal, but let's look at what John thought about it all, a wilderness dweller surviving as close to self-subsistence as a human can, he came out of the wilds to the Jordan, where thousands of families trekked past Samaria to reach Judea, and he offered them remission from their sins for little or nothing, by immersion in the jordan. By offering such a spiritual and physical service was he simply saying, 'Don't go to the Temple!'.... ?
MATTHEW: {1:4} John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. {1:5} And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
MATTHEW {3:7} But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
I propose that the people flocked to him in their thousands. Temple takings would have fallen. Exchange fees would have fallen. The Jerusalem and suburb locals would have reduced takings. Pilate could not act against John because John was working from the East bank of the Jordan and out of his jurisdiction, and so Herod Antipas was required to send a force to arrest John. Also, other Jews may have been avoiding Temple cleansing elsewhere, and some of these must also have been doing so within Pilate's jurisdiction.
LUKE {13:1} There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
I believe that Jesus supported John's mission, and was also baptising with his own disciples as well. Look what he said as he quoted Hosea. ({6:6} For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.)
MATTHEW {9:13} But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew {12:6} But I say unto you, That in this place is [one] greater than the temple. {12:7} But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice................
I wonder whether he was performing cleansings in the Sea of Galilee as well as in the Jordan, but, ok, this is not recorded. ....?
MARK {3:7} But Jesus withdrew himself with his disciples to the sea: and a great multitude
from Galilee followed him, and from Judaea, {3:8} And from Jerusalem, and from Idumaea, and [from] beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him.
............and the reactions...
MARK {1:27} And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine [is] this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.
MARK {2:6} But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, {2:7}
Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
But G-Mark suggests that he failed to gather as much support in Galilee as he needed, and so in a last huge attempt to win support he went to the Great Temple, demonstrated against the sacificial sellers and money exchangers and picketed the Temple Courts two days running.
Mark {11:15} And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; {11:16} And would not suffer that any man should carry [any] vessel through the temple. {11:17} And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
MARK {11:27} And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders, {11:28} And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things? {11:29} And Jesus
answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. {11:30} The baptism of John, was [it] from heaven, or of men? answer me.
And so I propose that if the Gospel of Mark is read with the above in mind that it can show that jesus's mission was simply for his own people, the working Jews, against the corrupt and greedy priesthood and the crushing costs of redemption at the Temple and for visitors around Jerusalem.
