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Featured Jesus and Deut 5:8-9

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    Did Jesus explicitly, or implicitly, oppose Deut 5:8-9

    "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,


    Was Idolatry the abomination that caused desolation for nebuchadnezzar?
     
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  2. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    What do you mean by - "Did Jesus explicitly, or implicitly, oppose Deut 5:8-9"?

    Why would Jesus oppose a law saying don't bow before idols.
    *

    As for Nebuchadnezzar, it is NOT about bowing to idols. It tells us - He needs to understand who is ruling and who put him, and all kings, on their thrones.

    Dan 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

    Dan 4:26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.

    Dan 4:28 All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.

    Dan 4:29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

    Dan 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

    Dan 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

    Dan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
    *
    As to Deuteronomy 5:8-9, I believe it was misunderstood by later people. I think it meant only - don't make idols out of anything. Don't make other "god" images, and bow in idolatry to them. There were sky gods, earth gods, and water gods.

    Why do I think this? Because we obviously have Temple verses telling us of images of pomegranates and cherubs, and lilies, and oxen. We have surviving altars and objects with sun wheels and other things on them. The menorah branches looked like that of an almond tree, containing buds, blossoms and flowers. It makes no sense for it to have meant no images of anything. So they obviously made images of things.

    *
     
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  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Since Jesus made No graven images, then 'No' Jesus did Not oppose Deuteronomy 5:8-9.

    The 'punishing' to the 3rd and 4th generation was in connection that parent's sins can be so bad as to bring bad consequences to their children, grand children and even great grand children. We today at times see children follow or walk in the same bad footsteps of their bad parents thus they suffer the bad consequences of the older generation.
     
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  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    If I remember correctly, those 'cherubs' were only in the Most Holy compartment of the Temple, so that would mean only on one day out of the year only the High Priest would see them. Not as to worship the cherubs of course.
     
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  5. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    most scholars believe the statue was an idol, image, of himself, or possibly his father. Anyway it was of a man. Romans 1 discusses idols of men, or humankind.
     
  6. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    did he promote explicitly, or implicitly a cult of personality?

    a cult of personality is a form of idolatry.
     
  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Jesus' NEW commandment found at John 13:34-35 is that we should have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has. That loving personality trait would be to love others more than self, more than the Golden Rule.
     
  8. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Well, from the various things Jesus said in the gospels; you have to come to the conclusion that Jesus either promoted such a cult or else you have to come to the conclusion that He is telling the truth. In which case Jesus actually was the appearing of God. Which is the belief I hold strongly.
     
  9. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    My theory is that Nebuchadnezzar made the image entirely of gold as a form of magic to reverse the dream he had in the previous chapter; which showed how his kingdom(represented by gold) would be replaced by a new kingdom of silver which would also be replaced etc. So, Nebuchadnezzar wanted to reverse the prophecy through a kind of magic ritual which would be to make a golden statue of himself from head to toe(representing that his kingdom would never end) and then the actual magic part of it was to cause everyone to worship his golden image. In his mind he hoped this would empower his image and give him the ability to reverse the prophecy. That's why he was so angry at the three friends of Daniel for not worshiping the image as it might have endangered the whole ritual.
     
  10. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    the golden rule doesn't advocate loving some more\less than others, nor did jesus, nor does john 13:34-35.

    mark 9:35 reinforces this idea of loving all equally.

    matthew 9:13 reinforces the idea.
     
  11. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    yet he never said he was exclusively god, exclusively the son of god, or even the most important aspect of god?

    he did say

    Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

    and

    respecting a nazarite?

    34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law,? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came and scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?


    malachi knew

    10 Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

    paul reiterates


    ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’


    and yet some christians have made one offspring more important than another. God doesn't advocate this, neither did jesus. God is not a respecter of persons.
     
    #11 Fool, Dec 14, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
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  12. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    the four kingdoms were destroyed by a small rock. kind of like the david slaying goliath scenario.
     
  13. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I think it applies only if you believe Jesus is God. Jesus would then be the image that God made of God's self.
     
  14. Fool

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    then why not worship adam as the son of god too?

    Genesis 1:27
    So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

    again wouldn't that go against deut 5:8-9 by worshiping any image, or form, or some aspect as exclusively representative of God's reflection?
     
  15. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I think so.
     
  16. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    We have many ancient Jewish archaeological objects with images of "things" on them. So no.

    Forgot to add, - obviously the ark is another item with images - that was paraded in public.

    *
     
    #16 Ingledsva, Dec 14, 2017
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  17. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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  18. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    What statue - idol - image?

    What verse in Dan 4 - are you talking about?

    In Dan 2 & 3 he accepts and calls YHVH the Most High God.

    Dan 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

    Dan 3:1 Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon.

    Dan 3:26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.

    Dan 3:29
    Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can deliver after this sort.

    Dan 4:2 I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God (see 3:1) hath wrought toward me. (The gold statue is probably of YHVH.)

    SO - Nebuchadnezzar has already accepted YHVH as the Most High God at this point. An image of himself is not the problem. We are told the problem.

    Dan 4:24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:

    Dan 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

    Dan 4:26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.

    Dan 4:28 All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.

    Dan 4:29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

    And this is why --- as per 25 - till thou know HE GIVES IT. Twelve months later he says I and MY and and while he is still speaking self aggrandizement - the prophesy comes true.

    Dan 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

    Dan 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

    Dan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

    *
     
    #18 Ingledsva, Dec 14, 2017
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  19. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    chapter 3 he is forcing everyone great and small to bow down and worship the idol. this is forbidden.

    whether he acknowledges yahweh, or jehovah is in contrast to deut 5:8-9.


    and fyi, jehovah is not the most high god, that is el from which the elohim are derived. this most high god is not seen until gen 14:18 and as related to melchizedek.

    Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

    Daniel 9:4 and 11:36 speaks of this El
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Was the ark to be set away from the public.
    Also, un-faithful Jews ( Ezekiel 8:16) made God-dishonoring symbols or idols.
     
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