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Featured Jehovah's Witness cartoon suggests to Children that magic-themed toys make Jehovah 'sad'

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Buddha Dharma, Mar 3, 2018.

  1. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Then it should be simple for you explain to all why everyone who is dead has died and paid the wages of sin? But you say they haven't. I will give you this---In a sense you are right because none of us deserve to be given grace or being saved. But it still takes many things on a followers part. Many think it will just be handed to them. They are wrong. Jesus said --Man must live by every utterance from God= Ot-Nt--It takes years of study and one still keeps learning.
     
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  2. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    They did not PAY the wages of sin, they RECEIVED the wages of sin, which is death. "The wages OF sin is death".

    Sin PAYS the wage of death, we RECEIVE the wage sin pays.
     
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  3. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Nope! It only takes 1, LOVE!!

    Love God with all our heart, soul and mind and love others as ourselves, that's it.

    We don't HAVE to obey God, we get to! We obey because we love Him and want to please Him.
     
  4. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Why did they die if Jesus covered their sins?
     
  5. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus said-- Man does not live by bread alone but by EVERY utterance from God--- This is Gods will( Matt 7:21) only those living now to do ALL of Gods will to the utmost best of their abilities will enter Gods kingdom)--these are the righteous. Few, Jesus said, will find the road. Love is but one aspect and few have the love of the covenant Jesus brought to us. Even Hitler loved his family and friends.
     
  6. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by, "Jesus covered their sins"?

    People die because we are mortal! Peter died, Paul died, all the Apostles died. Humans die!

    Doesn't the Bible say that if we confess our sins God is just and faithful to forgive us? If forgiven, then why do you believe we must pay for our sins (that have been forgiven) with our life? What's the point?


    Correct, we LIVE by every utterance of God. The Bible says,

    Proverbs 4:20-22 (ESV Strong's) 0 My son, be attentive to my words; incline your ear to my sayings. 21 Let them not escape from your sight; keep them within your heart. 22 For they are life to those who find them, and healing to all their flesh.

    John 6:63-64 (ESV Strong's) 3 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

    Matthew 4:4 (ESV Strong's) But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

    If you keep it in context, Jesus and satan are talking about food.


    Hebrews 5:12-14 (ESV Strong's) 2 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
     
  7. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    I thought I said that we didn't believe in a soul. Part of the issue we'll run into here if we start contrasting Buddhism and Christianity is the very different cultural frameworks they come from and their messages address.

    There are different theories, including that death never in fact occurs, except seemingly due to the body.

    That is a materialist perspective, not necessarily a religious one.
     
  8. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    I don't see how that shows the death being described is soul sleep.

    See previous response.

    I think you'd have a very hard time showing that was the case. Anything other belief systems think the Bible is saying could be potentially correct.

    Oh really? Than what was Samuel doing talking with a medium? What are the spirits the medium saw coming up from the earth? I'd say this is pretty indicative that ancient Jews believed souls go to Sheol.

    Well you can take that up with the Jews and Christians that think otherwise.
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    And that is what these forums are for.....understanding what others believe and why they believe it.

    So something survives the death of the body? Is it conscious? Does it have feelings? Is it "you"?

    It is what the scriptures teach as opposed to what religious systems teach IMO. I do not find it a coincidence that the same theme of 'life after death' round through all religious systems, regardless of their cultural origins.
     
  10. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    I did not say something. If all things have reference to one reality- that one reality is not something, depending what we mean.

    Part of the problem we'll run into focusing on this question is that the Buddha didn't permit me as a follower of his to conjecture about these matters. Therefore, I will not go beyond certain limits in speculating.

    He said that one can spend their whole life doing so, and the problem of our needing liberation remains the same.

    I think it is in a way we couldn't understand. If we could think of a consciousness containing all kinds of consciousness, but as unified in itself without division- we're seeing a shadow on the wall.

    This is something I choose not to elucidate because of the box it would be opening. There are Buddhist premises you'd need to accept, or at least understand before I could answer this. I doubt you see the Buddha as any kind of authority.

    No. That it is not. 'I' is a construct of the collectives/skandhas.

    Why is that?
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    First, let me answer this post. You have asked some interesting questions.

    There was no afterlife of any description mentioned in Eden. Adam was a "soul" and that soul died just as God said he would. All souls die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

    Death is likened to a sleep by Jesus and his apostles. (John 11:11-14)

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-16....
    "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

    No life after death here...just a peaceful sleep in the grave awaiting the call from Jesus to "come out". (John 5:28-29) Those anointed to be rulers and priests in heaven with Christ will be the first ones resurrected. (Revelation 20:6) Those who will be their subjects on earth will come forth later.

    Even King David knew that all thought processes end at death. (Psalm 146:4)

    Humans were designed to live forever on earth. This was meant to be our permanent home. Death was never supposed to happen. If you read the Genesis account, can you find mention of a natural cause of death? The only cause of death was the consuming of one variety of fruit. Death was a punishment, not a gateway to a better life.

    Can you find any mention of an immortal soul in the Bible? The idea was absent of the minds of the ancient Jews. It crept in later under Hellenic influence.

    Why do you think Saul had banished all the spirit mediums from the land? It was because communication with spirits was forbidden by God in his law. If these spirits were merely the souls of departed loved ones, why would God forbid us to speak with them?

    In Deuteronomy 18:9-12 God said to his people...."When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, 12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you."

    These practices were not just on a list of "please don't do this"...they were described by God as "abominations"...."a thing that causes disgust or loathing".

    If you read the account, Saul never saw or heard the spirit invoked....only the medium saw and heard and relayed information to the King.

    Since the Bible teaches that the soul dies, there is nothing of the deceased person remaining, but a lifeless body in a grave. The woman invoked a spirit, but who could tell if it was Samuel? The interesting thing is that Saul consulted the medium because God had stopped talking to him....

    " When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. 6 And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets. 7 Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a medium at En-dor.” (1 Samuel 28:5-7)

    Does it seem logical to you that God would not speak to his errant King through his living prophets, but speak to him by means of a dead prophet who was invoked by a practicer of what he abhorred? :shrug:

    The demons are active in the earth as ones who want to support their leader's agenda.....to promote belief in life after death, they can impersonate anyone they wish. They know everything about everyone, because they have been in existence since the beginning of time.

    The reason why Jesus did not appear as a spirit to his disciples was because of that law. Angels always materialized when bringing messages from God to his human servants. They ate and drank like any other humans. When their mission was completed, they dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm. After his resurrection, Jesus materialized fleshly bodies too, so as not to expect his disciples to compromise on this important law. When he ascended to heaven, he too dematerialized as he left his friends behind, promising them that a 'helper' would come to them in a few days.

    Jews and Christians went astray spiritually, as it was prophesied. (Acts 20:29-30; 1 Timothy 4:1)
    If you examine the circumstances, you will see that what happened in Judaism is exactly what happened in Christendom. God's word was ignored in favor of the adoption of man-made traditions. They are mirror images of each other. Jesus said that "few" would be saved...and we know why. :(
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Because they all have the same author. All are taught by the one god masquerading as "an angel of light" to those deceived by him. He doesn't care what mode of worship you practice, as long as its not the right one. All worship that does not go to the true God, goes to the devil by default.

    The world empire of false worship created by God's adversary has this thread running through every part of it. "You don't really die". The only religion that does not teach it is the true religion. This is the religion that follows the Bible, not man-made traditions or adoptions from other religions.

    In his prophesy on the "time of the end" Daniel said that God would 'cleanse, whiten and refine' a people who would be granted insight and understanding about many things. He would give them an abundance of knowledge. (Daniel 12:9-10)
    It stands to reason that those who are 'cleansed and whitened and refined', understand the reason why it was necessary, especially at this 'time of the end' when the world is more divided over religion than it has ever been. God said that the wicked would understand nothing....like birds caught in a trap they have been lured by the bait. Whatever religious ideas have appealed to them, they have adopted. Some go to the extent of formulating their very own religion.....they have gone 'shopping' in the devil's 'supermarket' for whatever beliefs took their fancy. There are some here like that.

    These are interesting times and our choices are telling God a lot about us. I believe that the choices we make now will determine the future for us as individuals.

    What do Buddhists see as the way of the future? How do you know that their premises are really valid?
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    You are correct. Those verses are not about life after death. They are about being spiritually dead, dead in Christ. Those who have fallen asleep are dead in Christ.

    Fallen asleep
    and dead refer to a spiritual state, asleep in Christ, dead in Christ. The opposite state is to be resurrected, raised from the dead, to be born again. Those who have recognized Jesus and follow Him have spiritual life, which is the same as having eternal life or everlasting life. A person can have eternal life in this world or in the afterlife. it is a state of nearness to God through Jesus.

    John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Its like talking to a brick wall. [​IMG] Have it your way.....believe whatever you wish.
     
  15. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    That sleep is not known beyond a doubt as actual sleep though. There are other passages that call this view into question. That's the whole problem with the Bible to begin with. It contains seemingly contradictory statements, which I'd expect if many authors in fact wrote it.

    Revelation depicts the elders, seemingly the martyrs and saints- as very much conscious within the presence of God. You also haven't shown that your understanding about the medium episode is correct, but I'll get to that in short order.

    See above.

    Again, the Bible does not at all make that clear. Some verses say the earth will be rolled up like a scroll. Others say the old earth and heaven actually pass away. This is another instance that I suspect you won't be able to demonstrate it's the same earth made new, as your organization thinks.

    God could have kept it from happening if he'd actually wanted. That is obvious to all of us not seeing through Christian-tinted glasses.

    To this and everything else you posted. All the verses and such. You have not demonstrated that it was not Samuel. Furthermore, you've arguably helped make my case for me. Because if the ancient Jews like Saul indeed believed death was the actual state of the dead- why would he even ask a medium to call up a dead person in the first place?

    Nice try, but Jews don't accept the New Testament, so they don't acknowledge anything it says. As for Christians, they all argue among one another how these verses of condemnation apply to one another. You have no superior ground here.

    Oh I knew you would say that. Forgive me for finding that over-simplistic and merely dismissive of all the religions of the world- each with their own theology and explanations.

    Why ask? You won't accept anything I say any way. You see no other authority besides the Watchtower. If I answer you, you'll just ask how I know that's true, even if I appeal to the authority Buddhism claims.

    I like discussion, but not spinning my wheels.
     
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  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No one said it was a literal sleep. Jesus likened death to sleep and so did Paul. In the scripture I quoted from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16, notice how long those "dead in Christ" were to "sleep"......it was until "the coming of the Lord". We know that this event was centuries into the future when Paul wrote those words. Was Paul (or any of the other apostles) aware of that? Or were they expecting it to be imminent? If you think about death as like a state of suspended animation, those who are dead are not conscious of the passage of time, so when they awaken, it will be as though they closed their eyes only moments ago. People awakening from a coma are not conscious of how long they have been 'sleeping' either. When there is no consciousness, time ceases for that person. I do not find that a difficult concept to process.

    The seeming contradictions are the result of misinterpretation. The Bible is not wrong, humans want to make the words fit their own ideas.

    Can you cite these "other passages"?

    Revelation is presented in "signs"....which means that there are many portions that are symbolic. At the time of the Revelation's fulfillment (The Lord's Day) there were many things that were to take place.....we have witnessed them ourselves. We believe that we are in the Lord's day right now.

    Revelation 20 is an amazing chapter revealing many aspects of the kingdom. It begins with binding and abyssing of satan so that he and his demons cannot mislead the nations for the duration of the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

    The thrones are for the "chosen ones" who will rule with Jesus in heaven. They 'came to life' (were resurrected) and assumed their heavenly positions. This is "the first resurrection" and it is to immortal, sinless heavenly life for those chosen ones only. "The rest of the dead" will not achieve sinless life on earth until the kingdom has brought all humans into reconciliation with God. At the end of the 1,000 years, satan is released to test all humans one last time before he and all who follow him are destroyed forever. Only then can God continue with his first purpose....to have a perfect race of material beings to inhabit a beautifully prepared planet and take care of it and its other inhabitants, as we were meant to in the first place. If you read the Genesis account, Earth is where we were suppose to live forever.

    Symbolism becomes apparent when you see the big picture. Most in Christendom are so hung up on going to heaven, they miss the whole purpose of why God placed us on earth. JW's do not believe that the planet will be made new....we see the flood of Noah's day as a pictorial example of what will occur again at the end.

    Jesus said...."For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be."

    We believe that another cleansing of the earth is about to take place...only this time not by water. The planet is perfect, but humanity are not, and they are destroying the only home they have in their quest for wealth and power. God is again warning them about his intentions, and again...no one is listening but the comparative "few" Jesus said will be saved. (Matthew 7:13-14)

    Yes, he could have if he had created robots or pre-programmed automatons. We alone are created in God's image....we alone possess God's attributes and qualities and we alone can serve our God out of love and of our own free will. Any parent will appreciate how it feels when their children follow their direction willingly, because they always have their children's best interests at heart. Love, not fear should motivate free willed beings.

    Saul had by this time lost the plot. He was so desperate to know his fate that he resorted to a practice that he had helped to eradicate from the land at God's command. The ancient Jews had no belief in an spiritual afterlife. Their sole belief was in a literal, physical resurrection back to this life, but under the rule of their Messiah's kingdom.

    Mediums were in league with the demons, which is why God banned them.....so there was no trusting what they said. If the living prophets would not speak to Saul, what made him think a dead one would? He was breaking God's law.

    After listing all the pre-Christian men and women of faith, Paul wrote in Hebrews 11:13 ...."In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land."

    They understood that God's promises would be fulfilled at some time in the future. And viewed their lives in this world ruled by God's enemies as temporary. How often were they living in foreign lands governed by pagan rulers?
    Christians too were told to be "no part of the world" (John 15:18-21) because it is "passing away". (1 John 2:15-17)

    The Jews like many other nations were influenced by the Greeks. Immortality of the soul is a Platonic Greek notion, adopted in later centuries....but it is not found in their scripture.

    That is true....however I believe that it is God who chooses to enlighten those in whom he finds the right heart condition. Remember Jesus likened hearts to 'soil' in which the seed of truth is planted? (Matthew 13:1-9) The truth will only grow in the right heart. God will nurture it. Only he knows who we really are.

    Sometimes it is the simplicity that makes everything so clear. It is a jumbled mess to those who are lost in it. I see some people on these boards who are completely lost in the maze......they don't know what or who to believe....some like to 'shop' for their beliefs and create their very own religion.....some look for a religion that suits 'them' with little thought about whether it suits God....others have abandoned religion altogether.....

    You have heard the illustration of how to hide a 40 ft tree out in the middle of a cleared field? If you have time up your sleeve, you plant a virtual forest of similar looking trees all around it and eventually, it will be almost impossible to identify the original tree....Satan has used that method to his advantage. "Confusion" is his middle name.

    So you see where the impasse cannot be breached by us mere mortals. Only God can make the truth clear to those to whom he wants to reveal it. He is choosing us as much as we think we are choosing ways to approach him. (John 6:44)

    I'm not a mechanic......just a messenger. [​IMG]
     
    #416 Deeje, Mar 20, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    It is not my way or your way, it is God’s Way… Whatever the Truth is or will be is or will be determined by God, not by you or me.

    I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am just sharing what I believe.

    We all have free will so everyone should make their own decisions about what to believe.
     
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  18. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    This was certainly the believe of worldly Jews, but not of spiritual Jews. The Jews believed in Olam Ha'ba, or the world to come. As for the worldly Jews? They believed in several things as spoken at Ecclesiastes 9:3-8:

    3 It seems so wrong that everyone under the sun suffers the same fate. Already twisted by evil, people choose their own mad course, for they have no hope. There is nothing ahead but death anyway. 4 There is hope only for the living. As they say, “It’s better to be a live dog than a dead lion!”

    5 The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, nor are they remembered. 6 Whatever they did in their lifetime—loving, hating, envying—is all long gone. They no longer play a part in anything here on earth. 7 So go ahead. Eat your food with joy, and drink your wine with a happy heart, for God approves of this! 8 Wear fine clothes, with a splash of cologne! (Ecclesiastes 9)
    So what did we learn?

    There is nothing ahead but death.
    There is hope only for the living.
    The dead have nothing and no further reward.
    Nobody remembers the dead (this includes your loved ones).
    We should drink and be merry, because it's better to be a live dog than a dead lion.
    We should wear find clothes with a splash of cologne!​

    I think anyone who bothers to read Ecclesiastes 9 in its entirety easily sees that "the dead know nothing" is NOT the belief of the spiritual man, anymore that the "dead are not remembered", "have no reward", and the living should eat with joy, drink their wine, wear fine clothes...all with a splash of cologne!

    Excellent and logical point Buddha Dharma.

    Witnesses claim the Hebrew scriptures do not support belief in an afterlife, and if this is true we have to ask ourselves why Saul would have consulted with a medium to begin with. Just to be sure, we can look at scripture:

    7 Saul then said to his advisers, “Find a woman who is a medium, so I can go and ask her what to do.”

    His advisers replied, “There is a medium at Endor.”

    8 So Saul disguised himself by wearing ordinary clothing instead of his royal robes. Then he went to the woman’s home at night, accompanied by two of his men.

    “I have to talk to a man who has died,” he said. “Will you call up his spirit for me?” (1 Samuel 28)

    Obviously if Saul didn't believe he could talk with the dead because they had "ceased to exist" he never would have consulted the medium. What would be the point of talking with someone who couldn't be there?

    Some Witnesses have told me it was a demon. But if Saul wanted to consult with a demon rather than the deceased he would have asked the medium to conjure a demon rather than Samuel. Besides, scripture doesn't tell us it was a demon or medium that replied to Saul. It tells us it was Samuel:

    15 “Why have you disturbed me by calling me back?” Samuel asked Saul.

    “Because I am in deep trouble,” Saul replied. “The Philistines are at war with me, and God has left me and won’t reply by prophets or dreams. So I have called for you to tell me what to do.”
    (1 Samuel 28)​

    Point made? Logically you would think so, but that's not always the case. Instead you may notice something curious:

    Only the Watchtower is allowed to "interpret" what a Jehovah Witness reads from the bible. So a Jehovah witness will read 1 Samuel 28:15 the same way you and I do:

    Why have you disturbed me by calling me back?” Samuel asked Saul.

    But even though our bible and Hebrew manuscripts clearly state "Samuel asked Saul" the Jehovah Witness will reinterpret the passage to mean:

    Why have you disturbed me by calling me back?” Samuel the Medium asked Saul."

    So it doesn't matter if the bible says "Samuel" when all the listener hears is "medium".

    It can takes hours of reading and manuscript study before "Samuel" actually means "Samuel" and not "medium" to a Witness.

    Platonic Greek notion? How does that explain Saul's action whe Plato wouldn't be born for another 600 years??
     
  19. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    Not to mention, making it sound like Greeks were as dogmatic as the monotheistic religions tend to be. Not all Greeks shared Plato's notion of the soul- at any time.

    Plato's idea was actually rather unorthodox for a Greek because he denied eternity in Hades and held to a kind of reincarnation- as we see in Phaedo.

    It could be said that Socrates gave the Greeks the first working explanation for reincarnation they'd potentially accept (used Greek argumentation).
     
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