Jehovah's Witness cartoon suggests to Children that magic-themed toys make Jehovah 'sad'

[Trailblazer]

@Deeje What about the scripture being about the spiritual dead state of a person? Why are you making it about the physical state?

Because she wants to have an immortal physical body and the only way she can manage to have one is with this particular belief.

Obviously, all the scriptures were about the spiritually dead state of a person, and the opposite of that is those who have spiritual life... All the following verses refer to eternal life of the soul, not life of the physical body.

Moreover, we can be spiritually dead or spiritually alive in both this mortal life and in the hereafter.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jesus makes it very clear that the physical body is not important, only spiritual life is important.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Why would Jesus come and raise bodies from their graves if Jesus did not think bodies were important? It just makes no sense.

 

[Trailblazer]

As for Christians, we expect to see our loved ones again without first having to delude ourselves into thinking the duplicates standing before us are the real thing. Anything less than the actual original would be an awful and cruel joke.

How and when and where will you see them... That is the 100-dollar question...
You Christians all have such different beliefs...

 

[djhwoodwerks]

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

And also, I'm pretty sure there are many people that lived and believed in Jesus that are dead!

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

And also, I'm pretty sure there are many people that lived and believed in Jesus that are dead!

Their physical bodies are dead but they have eternal life in heaven, where their soul has taken on another form...

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

And also, I'm pretty sure there are many people that lived and believed in Jesus that are dead!

Their physical bodies are dead but they have eternal life in heaven, where their soul has taken on another form...

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

 

[Deeje]

Why does it have to be that an afterlife is contingent on a soul? Buddhists don't believe in souls, but we do believe life continues by it's very nature because of what it is. That the soul concept is not necessary to this. I understand though we're talking about two widely differing belief systems that arose out of widely differing cultures when I bring Buddhism into the mix.

Well, what exactly is a "soul" to a Buddhist? What gets to live on? Consciousness is inextricably tied to the brain.
Where does consciousness go when someone is in a coma or under anesthetic?

When a person is sleeping in the period without dreams, where does consciousness go?

The Bible does not support the notion that a part of humans lives on after breathing stops. What remains of oxygen in the cells, particularly brain cells, becomes exhausted very quickly.....once brain death occurs, there is no coming back. At what point is a person "dead" according to Buddhists?

I'll simply say what I've told you before: I'm not sure how you infer some of these things from the verses you're quoting. How does what the serpent said prove there's an afterlife or not?

In Eden, God told the humans that death would result from consuming a certain fruit upon which was a prohibition, indicating that it was God's exclusive property.
There were actually two trees of significance in the garden (apart from the fruit that was freely available.) These two trees had opposite effects....one caused death and the other was a guarantee of life.....everlasting life, according to Genesis. The devil lied when he said that the woman would not die. All humans who have ever lived, have died. Satan couldn't keep them alive so he lied about death....it became another form of life. That is not what God said.

Telling the woman that she would not die, may have been because he believed that partaking of the "tree of life" would keep them alive, even if they ate the forbidden fruit. He was wrong. He probably underestimated the fact that God would immediately deny access to the tree of life, without which the death process would eventually take all humans back to he dust. To cover his mistake, he got humans to believe that death is not fatal.

That is an interesting point to consider. You're right that I don't seem to recall anything pertaining to an afterlife specifically in Genesis. I'll grant you that.

Thanks.

On what standard do you define 'sense'? We're not all materialists you know, so if it's materialists you appeal to in saying this makes more sense than being disembodied- that's not necessarily going to seem like sense to non-materialists.

I understand that. But the concept of an afterlife permeates almost all religions, not just pagan ones....but the Bible does not support this teaching. It was adopted after a foretold apostasy, along with other false teachings....so not surprising.

I should mention that not all Jews reject an afterlife, or believe in soul sleep. Some accept reincarnation, and have done so since the second temple period. It seems the Sadducees accepted reincarnation from what Josephus said, and some Pharisees also.

You might remember that Jesus didn't have a good word to say about the teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees. He called what they taught "leaven"....a corruption. (Matthew 16:12) The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection or in the existence of angels, but the Pharisees did. The Hebrew scriptures do not support belief in an afterlife...period, regardless of what they may say. Many of their beliefs are not scriptural, which is why Jesus castigated them.

Jews also accept a kind of hell called Gehenna historically speaking, and some of the Rabbis claimed people would be tormented there for the course of a year at longest.

"Gehenna" is not "hell". When Jesus told the Pharisees that they were not going to escape "the judgment of gehenna", he was speaking to a Jewish audience who knew full well what "gehenna" was. Jews believed in a future resurrection, not in an immortal soul. When a Jew died he was buried in a tomb with his name and family lineage clearly inscribed on it.

"Gehenna" was the Valley of Hinnom just outside the walls of Jerusalem where the bodies of executed criminals were cast for disposal. Not being seen as fit for a decent burial, such persons were deemed unworthy of a resurrection with no inscribed grave to indicate that they had ever existed. It was a symbol of everlasting death, which is the opposite of everlasting life. Since it was believed that God was going to call the dead from their tombs.....no tomb = no resurrection.
Any teaching about a hell of torment has no support from the scriptures. There is nothing to torment.

 

[Deeje]

What about the scripture being about the spiritual dead state of a person? Why are you making it about the physical state?

The Bible speaks about both. Was Lazarus spiritually dead or physically dead? What about Jairus' daughter or the widows son? (Luke 8:40-56; 7:11-17; John 11:17-44) Its not hard to figure out which is which.

Because she wants to have an immortal physical body and the only way she can manage to have one is with this particular belief.

Physical bodies cannot be immortal. They need food, water and air to keep living. Humans were designed to be mortal, but God provided the means to keep them living indefinitely. Immortals cannot die. Only spirit beings can be granted immortality. God did not create us to be immortal. The resurrection that the ancient Jews believed in, according to their scripture, was entirely physical.

Obviously, all the scriptures were about the spiritually dead state of a person, and the opposite of that is those who have spiritual life... All the following verses refer to eternal life of the soul, not life of the physical body.

Do they?

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

For someone who doesn't purport to know much about the Bible, you sure do like to quote scripture out of context to back up your own beliefs. Perhaps a little more knowledge would clear up a few things for you.....?

The above scripture is Jesus' address to Lazarus' sister Martha. Jesus was telling Martha that her brother would rise because he was physically dead...already in a tomb. He was a believer so Jesus promised that he would live even though his life had been interrupted by an untimely death. He then said "whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die".

There will come a time when the end of this world system arrives and the survivors of the final war of Armageddon will live through that time and on into the new world....they will never need to die at all. This cannot pertain to those who will rule with Christ in heaven because all who go to heaven have to die and be resurrected in a spiritual body, like Jesus. Flesh and blood cannot live anywhere else but here on earth where God put us in the first place. Adam was created never to die and humankind will return to God's first purpose. (Isaiah 55:11)

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Notice the opposite of "eternal life" here in this well known scripture....? "whoever believes in him should not perish".....what does "perish" mean? You have a contrast here with eternal life and eternal death.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

There are two kinds of eternal life, both purchased by the death of Jesus Christ. There are those of the heavenly calling who will rule as spirit creatures in heaven...and there are those who will be their subjects on earth. Eternal life simply means a life that will not end through any natural cause. God did not create humans to die, but to live forever on this earth. Jesus provided the means to restore God's original purpose. He takes some to heaven to help him facilitate it.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Lets try that is modern English...."Most truly I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes the One who sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life."

Now this is speaking about passing over from spiritual death to spiritual life (rather obvious).

Jesus makes it very clear that the physical body is not important, only spiritual life is important.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This out of context quote is Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus.....its about being "born again"...a very misunderstood term.
"Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” 4 Nic·o·deʹmus said to him: “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. 6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit."

Only those who will rule with Jesus are "born again". That is, they are born from water and spirit, having been baptized in water, followed by a baptism with holy spirit, anointing them for life in heaven. Those born from this spirit anointing must be "born again" as spirit beings. They are released from a fleshly body and given a spirit body, capable of living in a spiritual realm in the presence of God. Theirs is the "first resurrection" (Revelation 20:6)

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

This is also talking about spiritually dead people burying their spiritually dead relatives. The man to whom this was addressed was saying that he would follow Jesus, but only after he had buried his father, who was not yet dead. It was an excuse (maybe he felt it was legitimate) but Jesus knew that the window of opportunity to learn from him was small. There was no time to wait....especially if the man's relatives were never going to accept the truth about God that Jesus was teaching. He had to leave them behind and follow Jesus without delay. (Matthew 19:29)

Why would Jesus come and raise bodies from their graves if Jesus did not think bodies were important? It just makes no sense

Jesus performed several resurrections...literal, physical resurrections, so he did not feel that the flesh was unimportant. Lazarus was a prime example of what resurrection meant. He was a believer, so his death was not spiritual...it was literal. After four days his sister implied that decomposition would have set in. (John 11:38-39)

What makes no sense is your ridiculous interpretation of scripture....perhaps you need to stick to the words of your own prophet and leave Jesus out of it. It is clear that you know nothing about him or the Bible.

 

[Deeje]

And further, if we "cease to exist" how can we be conscious?

We have ceased to exist because "all memory of us is forgotten" (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) Only a very few have their names in history and many of those are infamous rather than famous. The majority of the human race have faded into the past, totally forgotten as far as we are concerned.

But God remembers everything about us so that he can recreate the entire person, memories and all. It says in the scriptures that he 'calls all the stars by name', so he shouldn't have any limitations remembering humans and their traits and personalities.

If you cease to exist you can't be conscious, and if you're conscious you cannot possible have ceased to exist. The two are mutually exclusive, the Watchtower assertion is illogical, and their soul sleep theology makes absolutely no sense.

What makes no sense is your interpretation of what is said. The dead are not conscious. The resurrection restores consciousness, like it did with Lazarus and a host of others mentioned in the Bible.

John 5:18-29..."Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth..."

ALL in their tombs will hear Jesus' voice and come forth from their graves. Was Jesus lying? He awakens the dead and calls them ALL out of their graves. Are you saying that Jesus will not do what he promised?

Except under WT theology it's not really your loved ones your sitting with. They are dead and gone and you're left with a non-resurrected recreated copy that has "the look, feel, and manner" of the original.

I suppose they would know they are copies because it would be disingenuous to pass themselves off as "originals".

You do understand that in the natural process of cell renewal in the human body, that every 7 years there is not a cell in your body that was there 7 years ago.....its a whole new you. Are you some kind of replica? We are all constantly being recreated. Your suggestion is disingenuous.

But if you can convince someone "the non-existent are unconscious" then it should be even easier to pass off these "100% certified, official imitations" as an actual wife or husband.

They will be exactly who they know themselves to be, and will be reunited to their families who will know them too. As the resurrection progresses, there will be family members waiting to welcome them back.

As for Christians, we expect to see our loved ones again without first having to delude ourselves into thinking the duplicates standing before us are the real thing. Anything less than the actual original would be an awful and cruel joke.

The cruel joke will be on you if you fail to teach the truth about death and resurrection. Upholding the devil's first lie is not going to win Brownie points with the one who never intended for humans to die in the first place.

Christendom does not teach the truth about death. There is no part of man that survives to live on elsewhere.

Show me the words "immortal soul" anywhere in the Bible.

 

[savagewind]

The Bible speaks about both. Was Lazarus spiritually dead or physically dead? What about Jairus' daughter or the widows son? (Luke 8:40-56; 7:11-17; John 11:17-44) Its not hard to figure out which is which.

OK. I love you, @Deeje! As far as I know, the discussion isn't about whether a physical resurrection is possible or what the (whole) Bible says about it. But, you make me laugh, and I love you. The discussion is about what one scripture means. But, you're cute.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I suppose they would know they are copies because it would be disingenuous to pass themselves off as "originals".

According to the witnesses, Jesus was disingenuous and passed Himself off as the "original".

They claim that Jesus' earthly body was not raised from the dead. When He appeared to the disciples and said, "see my hands and feet, and the hole in my side, it is I myself" that God created a body just like Jesus had when He died, it wasn't the real body of Jesus.

 

[kjw47]

Again, witnesses take that one verse, out of the whole chapter and claim we pay for our sin with our own death. Read verses 1-6.

In this first death yes, we die and pay the wages of sin-- Even those who repented( Acts 3:19)--The apostles died and everyone who died has died and paid the wages of sin.
The remaining little flock( Luke 12:32, Rev 14:3) are changed in the twinkling of an eye( never taste death) during the tribulation.
The great multitude will be brought through on earth( Prov 2:21-22--Matt 24:22)- these may never taste death. Yet all owe the wages of sin= death--this Jesus covered. The righteous are covered.( Psalm 37:9-11,29)Matt 5:5)

 

[Deeje]

According to the witnesses, Jesus was disingenuous and passed Himself off as the "original".

They claim that Jesus' earthly body was not raised from the dead. When He appeared to the disciples and said, "see my hands and feet, and the hole in my side, it is I myself" that God created a body just like Jesus had when He died, it wasn't the real body of Jesus.

SMH....Jesus sacrificed his human body for us...why would he take it back? With the blood sacrifices in Israel, what became of the body of the sacrificed animal? It was offered to God with thanksgiving and a share given to the priests. (1 Corinthians 9:13) Doesn't this explain why Jesus said that the ones chosen to rule with him in heaven must 'eat his flesh' in a figurative sense?

Jesus' tomb was empty because it plainly says that Jesus was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit" (1 Peter 3:18)

If you read the gospel accounts, you will see evidence that Jesus was not raised in the flesh. He lived with his apostles as his constant companions for three and a half years, yet after his resurrection, he only "appeared" to them, and not always in the same body. Most of the time they did not recognize him. (Luke 24:12-27) When they begged the stranger to stay with them, the account continues...."Finally they got close to the village to which they were traveling, and he made as if to travel on farther. 29 But they urged him to remain, saying: “Stay with us, because it is almost evening and the day is nearly over.” With that he went in to stay with them. 30 And as he was dining with them, he took the bread, blessed it, broke it, and began handing it to them. 31 At that their eyes were fully opened and they recognized him; but he disappeared from them."

The man Jesus was entirely human before his death and resurrection, but afterwards he was by no means still just a mortal man. He was raised as a spirit, capable of materializing fleshly bodies, just as other spirit beings had done in the past. He stayed for 40 days after his resurrection to encourage his disciples, yet there is no mention of where.

"God is a spirit" and all who dwell in his realm must also be spirits.

As Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 15:39-44....
"Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, there is another flesh of cattle, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. 41 The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one."

Materializing a body with the wounds of his execution was to convince a doubting Thomas, but no other appearances made mention of his wounds, which would have been extensive. Remember what Jesus went through before his death....you think God was going to raise his body with the wounds inflicted by his enemies? How ridiculous! Christ was raised in a glorious spirit body.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

They claim that Jesus' earthly body was not raised from the dead. When He appeared to the disciples and said, "see my hands and feet, and the hole in my side, it is I myself" that God created a body just like Jesus had when He died, it wasn't the real body of Jesus.

Whenever I see the resurrection portrayed in any medium, what always fascinates me is that Jesus has maybe three wounds tops (the historically inaccurate hand wounds and the side wound), when he was beaten to a bloody pulp and so should look like a horror movie monster, not just someone who didn't use a nail gun properly.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

SMH....Jesus sacrificed his human body for us...why would he take it back?

So Jesus was disingenuous when He said, "it is I myself", because according to witnesses, He had a different body made to look like His real body.

 

[Oeste]

We have ceased to exist because "all memory of us is forgotten" (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10)
Only a very few have their names in history and many of those are infamous rather than famous. The majority of the human race have faded into the past, totally forgotten as far as we are concerned.

That’s nonsense Deeje. The Watchtower does NOT teach you “cease to exist” when “all memory of us is forgotten”. It teaches you “cease to exist” WHEN YOU DIE.

In other words, you cease to exist at the point of death, not at the point when no one’s around to remember you.

Its clear teaching is this: When a person dies, he ceases to exist. Death is the opposite of life. The dead do not see or hear or think. Not even one part of us survives the death of the body. We do not possess an immortal soul or spirit. Watchtower: What Does the Bible Really Teach? Chapter 6​

Nice try! It shows you've placed some effort into reconciling an irreconcilable eschatology, but it goes beyond anything the Watchtower actually teaches.

But God remembers everything about us so that he can recreate the entire person, memories and all. It says in the scriptures that he 'calls all the stars by name', so he shouldn't have any limitations remembering humans and their traits and personalities.

There is nothing to “recreate” because we are not “recreated” but “resurrected”. Recreating an individual is not the same as resurrecting them.

What makes no sense is your interpretation of what is said. The dead are not conscious. The resurrection restores consciousness, like it did with Lazarus and a host of others mentioned in the Bible.

No, “what makes no sense” is the belief in two mutually exclusive ideas. Lazarus was not “recreated”.

ALL in their tombs will hear Jesus' voice and come forth from their graves. Was Jesus lying? He awakens the dead and calls them ALL out of their graves. Are you saying that Jesus will not do what he promised?

Of course not! But we would be lying if we told folks they were going to be recreated rather than resurrected.

You do understand that in the natural process of cell renewal in the human body, that every 7 years there is not a cell in your body that was there 7 years ago.....its a whole new you. Are you some kind of replica? We are all constantly being recreated. Your suggestion is disingenuous.

Individual cells die and are replaced Deeje, not individual Oeste’s, and yes, there are plenty of cells in my body that were 7 years ago and have been with me since birth. These include the inner cells of my eye (there since embryo), my teeth, and my brain.

In short, human cells are not resurrected as part of the natural process of cell renewal and any suggestion that they are is disingenuous.

They will be exactly who they know themselves to be, and will be reunited to their families who will know them too. As the resurrection progresses, there will be family members waiting to welcome them back.

So they know they’re imitations but still they pass themselves off as originals! And you’re okay with this? And who are the “reunited family members”. Are they copies too?

Look, I understand if the recreated copies accept other copies. You would expect them to. What I don’t understand is how anyone who knows they’re original would accept a clone as a replacement for his wife. Any such ploy would be a cruel, heartless joke.

The cruel joke will be on you if you fail to teach the truth about death and resurrection.

Agreed, which is why I pointed out the Watchtower's unscriptural and rather obvious flaw.

Upholding the devil's first lie is not going to win Brownie points with the one who never intended for humans to die in the first place.

We agree again Deeje!

Christendom does not teach the truth about death. There is no part of man that survives to live on elsewhere.

Watchtower eschatology is poorly conceived and needs more work Deeje. You can’t cease to exist and be unconscious at the same time. Besides, if the Watchtower publishes “new light” on this your opinion will change in a “twinkling of an eye” and you’ll wonder...along with 8 million other Witnesses...how you could have ever believed otherwise.

Show me the words "immortal soul" anywhere in the Bible.

You'll need to get in line. I'm still trying to find "Kingdom Hall"!

 

[Oeste]

According to the witnesses, Jesus was disingenuous and passed Himself off as the "original".

They claim that Jesus' earthly body was not raised from the dead. When He appeared to the disciples and said, "see my hands and feet, and the hole in my side, it is I myself" that God created a body just like Jesus had when He died, it wasn't the real body of Jesus.

If I lost a $100.00 bill I would not accept a counterfeit bill as a replacement no matter how well it was made. Neither would the government. Yes, I can tell the government not to worry… my machine duplicates the look, feel, and quality of the original bill. But the only ones really interested are going to be from the Secret Service.

Not so with Jehovah Witnesses! If your duplicate bill is indistinguishable from the original you’re good to go. You can even tell them “Look, I lost the original bill I was going to give you, but I printed up this duplicate in my basement. Don't worry, no once can tell the difference because it's just as good as the original. “

The mental gymnastics and rationalizations Witnesses have to go through in order to make sense of Watchtower doctrine boggles the mind. If you’re not willing to accept duplicate currency, you’re certainly not willing to accept duplicate people.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

According to the witnesses, Jesus was disingenuous and passed Himself off as the "original".

They claim that Jesus' earthly body was not raised from the dead. When He appeared to the disciples and said, "see my hands and feet, and the hole in my side, it is I myself" that God created a body just like Jesus had when He died, it wasn't the real body of Jesus.

Are you kidding me?!!

Then why, in Luke 24:13-32, did Cleopas and others not recognize him? But after noticing his mannerisms, they did, and then Jesus disappeared from them!

He did the same thing (disappear) in front of his apostles.

The evidence is as the Scriptures say, "He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit." - 1 Peter 3:18.

 

[Trailblazer]

Physical bodies cannot be immortal. They need food, water and air to keep living. Humans were designed to be mortal, but God provided the means to keep them living indefinitely. Immortals cannot die. Only spirit beings can be granted immortality. God did not create us to be immortal. The resurrection that the ancient Jews believed in, according to their scripture, was entirely physical.

I do not differentiate between what you call spirit beings and any ordinary human. We all have souls which are immortal.

I do not know any Jews who believe that bodies will be resurrected from graves. But it does not matter what anyone believes. It only matters what is true.

For someone who doesn't purport to know much about the Bible, you sure do like to quote scripture out of context to back up your own beliefs. Perhaps a little more knowledge would clear up a few things for you.....?

The above scripture is Jesus' address to Lazarus' sister Martha. Jesus was telling Martha that her brother would rise because he was physically dead...already in a tomb. He was a believer so Jesus promised that he would live even though his life had been interrupted by an untimely death. He then said "whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die".

I have read that full chapter so I have the context. Jesus never said that her brother would rise from being physically dead.

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

The question is what Jesus meant by rise again. The hint is that Jesus said “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:” and “whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.” Jesus meant that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life, not physical life.

There will come a time when the end of this world system arrives and the survivors of the final war of Armageddon will live through that time and on into the new world....they will never need to die at all. This cannot pertain to those who will rule with Christ in heaven because all who go to heaven have to die and be resurrected in a spiritual body, like Jesus. Flesh and blood cannot live anywhere else but here on earth where God put us in the first place. Adam was created never to die and humankind will return to God's first purpose. (Isaiah 55:11)

You sure seem to think you have it all figured out... Just one thing, other Christians have it figured out differently and they read the same Bible... Why is that?

Trailblazer said: John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Notice the opposite of "eternal life" here in this well known scripture....? "whoever believes in him should not perish".....what does "perish" mean? You have a contrast here with eternal life and eternal death.

That means his soul will have eternal life. Eternal life is about quality of life, being close to God, and we can have eternal life in this mortal life or in the afterlife. We become close to God through Jesus. All souls will continue to exist after the body dies, but only those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life. Their soul will still exist but, as noted in the passage below: “He who is deprived of these divine favors, although he continues after death, is considered as dead by the people of truth.” That is what Jesus meant by “perish.”

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.”(John 3:5).

The rewards of this life are the virtues and perfections which adorn the reality of man. For example, he was dark and becomes luminous; he was ignorant and becomes wise; he was neglectful and becomes vigilant; he was asleep and becomes awakened; he was dead and becomes living; he was blind and becomes a seer; he was deaf and becomes a hearer; he was earthly and becomes heavenly; he was material and becomes spiritual. Through these rewards he gains spiritual birth and becomes a new creature. He becomes the manifestation of the verse in the Gospel where it is said of the disciples that they “were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:13) —that is to say, they were delivered from the animal characteristics and qualities which are the characteristics of human nature, and they became qualified with the divine characteristics, which are the bounty of God. This is the meaning of the second birth. For such people there is no greater torture than being veiled from God, and no more severe punishment than sensual vices, dark qualities, lowness of nature, engrossment in carnal desires....

Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity. The rewards of the other world are the perfections and the peace obtained in the spiritual worlds after leaving this world, while the rewards of this life are the real luminous perfections which are realized in this world, and which are the cause of eternal life, for they are the very progress of existence. It is like the man who passes from the embryonic world to the state of maturity and becomes the manifestation of these words: “Blessed, therefore, be God, the most excellent of Makers.” (Qur’án 23:14). The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity. In the same way the punishments of the other world—that is to say, the torments of the other world—consist in being deprived of the special divine blessings and the absolute bounties, and falling into the lowest degrees of existence. He who is deprived of these divine favors, although he continues after death, is considered as dead by the people of truth.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 223-225

There are two kinds of eternal life, both purchased by the death of Jesus Christ. There are those of the heavenly calling who will rule as spirit creatures in heaven...and there are those who will be their subjects on earth. Eternal life simply means a life that will not end through any natural cause. God did not create humans to die, but to live forever on this earth. Jesus provided the means to restore God's original purpose. He takes some to heaven to help him facilitate it.

As you can see, my definition of eternal life is very different from yours (see above). In brief, those who are close to God and have acquired the divine perfections have eternal life both in this mortal life and in the afterlife; and those who are not close to God but are selfish and attached to their animal desires are spiritually dead and have no eternal life in this mortal world or in the afterlife.

Lets try that is modern English...."Most truly I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes the One who sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life."

Now this is speaking about passing over from spiritual death to spiritual life (rather obvious).

I can agree with that.

Trailblazer said: Jesus makes it very clear that the physical body is not important, only spiritual life is important.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This out of context quote is Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus.....its about being "born again"...a very misunderstood term.

"Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” 4 Nic·o·deʹmus said to him: “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. 6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit."

Only those who will rule with Jesus are "born again". That is, they are born from water and spirit, having been baptized in water, followed by a baptism with holy spirit, anointing them for life in heaven. Those born from this spirit anointing must be "born again" as spirit beings. They are released from a fleshly body and given a spirit body, capable of living in a spiritual realm in the presence of God. Theirs is the "first resurrection" (Revelation 20:6)

After they die physically, everyone is released from a fleshy body. When our physical body dies our soul is released from our body and continues to exist in the spiritual world, where it gets a spirit body made up of elements in the heavenly realm.

Everyone who is close to God has eternal life in the presence of God, and those who are not close to God are spiritually dead, although they continue to exist in a spirit body that suits them, according to the discretion of God. If they reach out to God, they can get close to God by the prayers of others or that mercy of God, but there is no guarantee, because they will no longer have free will like they do in this life.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Are you kidding me?!!

Not at all. If Jesus' original body was destroyed, and God forged another so He could appear to them, He was disingenuous when He said, "look at My hands for it is I Myself", because it was a forged body to look like the original.

Then why, in Luke 24:13-32, did Cleopas and others not recognize him?

What's the one thing that will keep anyone from seeing Jesus? FAITH! They had lost faith that Jesus was the one, that's why they didn't recognize Him.

Luke 24:21 (ESV Strong's) 21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel.

And what did Jesus say?

Luke 24:25 (ESV Strong's) 25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!

Jesus didn't look different, He didn't have a different body, their lack of faith kept them from seeing Him.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

In this first death yes, we die and pay the wages of sin

You still don't understand, very sad.


Romans 6:23 (ESV Strong's) 23 For the wages of sin is death,

How bout this, it's real simple, 'the wages of working is money', who's PAYING the wages, you or your employer?