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Jehovah's Witness cartoon suggests to Children that magic-themed toys make Jehovah 'sad'

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
"The wages of sin is death" so when a person dies they have paid sin's wages.

Witnesses have been so mislead about that verse, it's just sad.

Romans 6:23 (ESV Strong's) 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

"The wages of sin is death", that means sin PAYS the wage of death, that means the person who sins RECEIVES the wage sin pays, correct?


How is it out of context? "The wages of sin is death" so when a person dies they have paid sin's wages.
Christ's death is the currency for the payment. Without Jesus' sacrifice, the death would be permanent.

So your god wants TWO payments for sin? Jesus' death AND our death?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I do think that the ancient people were simpler than that. I try never to underestimate them, but then if I over-estimate them with all that babble that most people attribute to them, that would be judging. Matthew 7:1
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Witnesses have been so mislead about that verse, it's just sad.

Not half as sad as those who believe in heaven and hell.
4fvgdaq_th.gif


Romans 6:23 (ESV Strong's) 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

"The wages of sin is death", that means sin PAYS the wage of death, that means the person who sins RECEIVES the wage sin pays, correct?

You missed the point as usual in your haste to be 'right'......

"The wages sin pays is death" so if Christ had not paid the debt for us, the death would be permanent. That is what Jesus spoke about to the Pharisees....."Gehenna" is a death from which no one is awakened.
It is 'everlasting life' that Christ buys back for us. Did you get that bit? What kind of life was supposed to be "everlasting" when God first created humans? I'll give you a clue...it wasn't in heaven.

In sentencing the pair God said to Adam.....
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” No heaven or hell...just death and a return to the dust.

"22 Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life." (Genesis 3:19, 22-24)

Because there is no immortal soul to flit off to anywhere, the disobedient humans were sentenced to a life of hardship until their death. They paid sin's wages. But because there no basis upon which to forgive them, the wages of their sin was permanent.
The only way for humans to continue living (according to the Genesis account) was to partake of the "tree of life".
Once they lost their relationship with God through the barrier of sin, access to 'the tree of life' was barred to all humans. The trees of life are not mentioned again until Revelation, when it says that they are for the "curing of the nations". (Revelation 22:1-2)

The trees in Eden were real trees, and so, I believe, are the trees in Revelation because Christ and his "bride" are seen bringing the blessings of the kingdom to "mankind". (Revelation 21:1-4)

So your god wants TWO payments for sin? Jesus' death AND our death?

No.....death is the wages of sin...we all sin and so we all die. The highest penalty under God's law was death. God does not need to torture people after they die to fulfill justice. Death is enough.

Jesus' death buys us a way out of sheol. (hades, the grave) Its called the resurrection and he demonstrated what that means by resurrecting his friend Lazarus. Where was Lazarus before Jesus woke him up? Jesus told us he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I'm curious what you think is 'sad' about this. In your words.

A hell of eternal torment makes the Creator into a sadistic fiend who fails to make the punishment fit the crime...that is a violation of his justice. There was no torture attached to punishment in Israel....there was not even any prisons. Hell is a pagan concept.

And heaven was never in God's original plans for humans. If humans had just obeyed their Creator, they would have lived forever on earth without knowing what an evil thing was. There would have been no need for a redeemer or a kingdom to fix what was broken. humans lost so much because they acted as if they knew better than God did.....some humans still do....they haven't learned a thing!
4fvgdaq_th.gif
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
A hell of eternal torment makes the Creator into a sadistic fiend who fails to make the punishment fit the crime

I can't really argue with you there. An eternal hell is beyond unjust and is sadistic. I wonder though if you think that means there is no hell, even if temporary? How would a temporary hell fall short of justice?

Hell is a pagan concept

I don't see how that alone would invalidate the concept. If it turned out to be true, it would have nothing to do with it's being pagan or not.

And heaven was never in God's original plans for humans. If humans had just obeyed their Creator, they would have lived forever on earth without knowing what an evil thing was.

What do you believe that based on? The Bible? Because there are plenty of people that think the Bible teaches heaven.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I can't really argue with you there. An eternal hell is beyond unjust and is sadistic. I wonder though if you think that means there is no hell, even if temporary? How would a temporary hell fall short of justice?

Since I have no belief in an immortal soul that departs from the body at death, there is, IMO nowhere for the dead to go. All end their lives as Adam did....in the dust from which he was taken.

The Jews believed that the dead are simply asleep in their graves awaiting a resurrection back to this life under the Messiah's Kingdom. That is also the belief of Jehovah's Witnesses. (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6; 10)
Jesus promised...."Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29) The dead are called from their graves, just like Lazarus. (John 11:11-14)

I don't see how that alone would invalidate the concept. If it turned out to be true, it would have nothing to do with it's being pagan or not.

There is no part of man that survives death. Immortality of the soul is nothing more than a continuation of the lie told in Eden....the devil told the woman..."you surely will not die". God said the opposite.....so who was lying? (John 8:44)

We get to prove ourselves in this life....

What do you believe that based on? The Bible? Because there are plenty of people that think the Bible teaches heaven.

If you go back to Genesis, you will see that there was no mention of an afterlife...no heaven or hell...just life or death.

In his covenant with Israel, God put before them "life and death" and told them to choose life by obeying him.

"I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants" (Deuteronomy 30:19; Deuteronomy 30:16-17)

If the first humans had obeyed their God, no one would ever have died. There was only one cause of death in Eden....disobeying that one command. If humans had not disobeyed, they would never have died. But they did, and as an immediate response, God implemented the means of redeeming humankind and forming a "government" over them that would bring about a reconciliation with Him in the future. The barrier of sin had to be removed first, so Christ, God's appointed King, offered to pay the debt that Adam left as an awful inheritance for his children, freeing them to be taken into a special relationship with God through his son.

As part of that "government", Jesus chose some humans from the earth to assist him in the task of reconciliation. (Revelation 14:1-4) All of the first Christians were part of that group and so the Christian scriptures were written to them and for them, but they were not the only humans who were saved.

Isaiah prophesied..."For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. . . Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever."
(Isaiah 9:6-7 NIV)

These specially 'chosen ones' (with a heavenly calling) are the only ones who are taken to heaven to rule with Christ. These are resurrected "first" and will have humans who were redeemed by Jesus as their subjects on earth where God placed us in the beginning. (Revelation 20:6) They will also act as priests for mankind guiding them in their new life.

All who have died have paid sin's wages and Christ has cancelled their debt by removing the reason for sin. The kingdom will rule for 1,000 years. There will be those who survived the end times, by their obedience to Christ's teachings.....and all who will rise from the grave (those from ancient times, and those who had not responded to the kingdom message during this "time of the end") These will be educated in Jehovah's ways during a time of 'judgment', (not in the invisible realm but here on earth) many having never heard of Jehovah or his son. All will get an opportunity to accept Jehovah as their God and obey his reasonable commands.

This makes more sense to me than any heaven or hell scenario.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The Jews believed that the dead are simply asleep in their graves awaiting a resurrection back to this life under the Messiah's Kingdom. That is also the belief of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Excellent, Deeje! What a great way to put it!

You know, I have a hard time talking about the Resurrection without tearing up. I can't help but think about seeing my Grandma again, and so many other dear ones! And meeting King David, and Moses, etc. 1 Corinthians 2:9, eh?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Do you consider yourself DEAD whilst you SLEEP?

Yes, except that "dead asleep" doesn't mean dead because we are still breathing. It means not being conscious of what is going on around us. If you fall asleep and are awakened during the night, do you know what time it is? Or how long you have been asleep? Death is like that. There is no awareness of the passing of time.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 10 makes it clear.....Solomon wrote...(NASB)
"For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.. . . .
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going."

"Sheol" is Hebrew for the grave.


King David said...."His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalm 146:4)

How do thoughts perish? Why does love perish along with other emotions, if the soul is still alive?


The "spirit" that departs is the breath. When we breath our last breath, we die....the soul that is us, is no more. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Sleeping peacefully in our graves, we await the promised call from Jesus to come out of our tombs. (John 5:28-29) They do not return as spirits, but as whole human beings again as we were designed to be in the beginning. If anyone has it all wrong, its Christendom.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Excellent, Deeje! What a great way to put it!

You know, I have a hard time talking about the Resurrection without tearing up. I can't help but think about seeing my Grandma again, and so many other dear ones! And meeting King David, and Moses, etc. 1 Corinthians 2:9, eh?

Imagine the conventions and the guest speakers!!! ;)

Sitting there with our loved ones returned to us, enjoying the education and the good health. I can't wait!
bliss.gif
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
It means not being conscious of what is going on around us.

That's true, but you don't cease to exist, sleep is a different state of consciousness, everybody dreams while sleeping.


Matthew 9:23-24 (ESV Strong's) 3 And when Jesus came to the ruler's house and saw the flute players and the crowd making a commotion, 24 he said, “Go away, for the girl is not dead but sleeping.” And they laughed at him.


It means not being conscious of what is going on around us.

Sleeping peacefully in our graves, we await the promised call from Jesus to come out of our tombs.

How can that be? If we are not conscious of anything, how are we waiting for the call?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That's true, but you don't cease to exist, sleep is a different state of consciousness, everybody dreams while sleeping.

Matthew 9:23-24 (ESV Strong's) 3 And when Jesus came to the ruler's house and saw the flute players and the crowd making a commotion, 24 he said, “Go away, for the girl is not dead but sleeping.” And they laughed at him.

I hope you are not suggesting that the young 12 year old was actually 'sleeping'? The reason they laughed is because she was dead. Sleep is what Jesus likened death to...remember Lazarus? He was dead for 4 days when Jesus called him out of his tomb. Jesus said he was sleeping too....but then plainly said "Lazarus has died".

How can that be? If we are not conscious of anything, how are we waiting for the call?

If you know what the Bible teaches, you know before death that Jesus promised to raise the dead....and because there is no immortal soul to float off anywhere, the Bible says that "both the righteous and the unrighteous" are called out of the same place.

Lazarus heard Jesus call him.....he had no trouble doing so.....where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him?
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
Since I have no belief in an immortal soul that departs from the body at death, there is, IMO nowhere for the dead to go. All end their lives as Adam did....in the dust from which he was taken.

Why does it have to be that an afterlife is contingent on a soul? Buddhists don't believe in souls, but we do believe life continues by it's very nature because of what it is. That the soul concept is not necessary to this. I understand though we're talking about two widely differing belief systems that arose out of widely differing cultures when I bring Buddhism into the mix.

There is no part of man that survives death. Immortality of the soul is nothing more than a continuation of the lie told in Eden....the devil told the woman..."you surely will not die".

I know we've gone around before about this kind of thing, which wasn't out of ill will on my part- I assure you. I'll simply say what I've told you before: I'm not sure how you infer some of these things from the verses you're quoting. How does what the serpent said prove there's an afterlife or not?

If you go back to Genesis, you will see that there was no mention of an afterlife...no heaven or hell...just life or death.

That is an interesting point to consider. You're right that I don't seem to recall anything pertaining to an afterlife specifically in Genesis. I'll grant you that.

This makes more sense to me than any heaven or hell scenario.

On what standard do you define 'sense'? We're not all materialists you know, so if it's materialists you appeal to in saying this makes more sense than being disembodied- that's not necessarily going to seem like sense to non-materialists.

Excellent, Deeje! What a great way to put it!

I should mention that not all Jews reject an afterlife, or believe in soul sleep. Some accept reincarnation, and have done so since the second temple period. It seems the Sadducees accepted reincarnation from what Josephus said, and some Pharisees also.

Jews also accept a kind of hell called Gehenna historically speaking, and some of the Rabbis claimed people would be tormented there for the course of a year at longest.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@Deeje What about the scripture being about the spiritual dead state of a person? Why are you making it about the physical state?
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Do you consider yourself DEAD whilst you SLEEP?
I've been dead tired lots of times. :)

Matthew 9:23-24 (ESV Strong's) 3 And when Jesus came to the ruler's house and saw the flute players and the crowd making a commotion, 24 he said, “Go away, for the girl is not dead but sleeping.” And they laughed at him.
I note that when Lazarus died, Jesus tried to say he was sleeping but then clarified he was dead. With this girl, however, everyone thinks she's dead and he insists she is only sleeping. I'm thinking she was just comatose. Looking like you're dead doesn't mean you are.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Sleeping peacefully in our graves, we await the promised call from Jesus to come out of our tombs.

How can that be? If we are not conscious of anything, how are we waiting for the call?

And further, if we "cease to exist" how can we be conscious?

If you cease to exist you can't be conscious, and if you're conscious you cannot possible have ceased to exist. The two are mutually exclusive, the Watchtower assertion is illogical, and their soul sleep theology makes absolutely no sense.

Sitting there with our loved ones returned to us, enjoying the education and the good health. I can't wait!
bliss.gif

Except under WT theology it's not really your loved ones your sitting with. They are dead and gone and you're left with a non-resurrected recreated copy that has "the look, feel, and manner" of the original.

I suppose they would know they are copies because it would be disingenuous to pass themselves off as "originals".

But if you can convince someone "the non-existent are unconscious" then it should be even easier to pass off these "100% certified, official imitations" as an actual wife or husband.

As for Christians, we expect to see our loved ones again without first having to delude ourselves into thinking the duplicates standing before us are the real thing. Anything less than the actual original would be an awful and cruel joke.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Imagine the conventions and the guest speakers!!! ;)

Sitting there with our loved ones returned to us, enjoying the education and the good health. I can't wait!
bliss.gif
You won't be seeing them in a physical body on earth. If you see them, it will be in the spiritual world.

Union in the Next World
"...the possibility of securing union with his beloved in the next world is one which the Bahá'í Teachings are quite clear about. According to Bahá'u'lláh the soul retains its individuality and consciousness after death, and is able to commune with other souls. This communion, however, is purely spiritual in character, and is conditioned upon the disinterested and selfless love of the individuals for each other."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the National Spiritual Assembly of India, March 10, 1936: Dawn of a New Day, p. 58, in Lights of Guidance, no. 694)​
 
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