Its hard to take scriptures serious with verses like these

[Notanumber]

You're welcome!

I'm afraid this world is not a perfect peaceful world. Islam is meant to be in the middle, no opening doors for offenders to murder and rape people while watching doing nothing on the one hand, nor just transgress and eradicate every single obstacle with pure force on the other to get along with this world. Some might think that know the world is peaceful and that pacifism and turning the other cheek is always the right thing to do, but that's not true and if that was adopted in the past by some people, they would have been erased from the face of the planet with no mercy. It is believed in Islam that a good teaching should cover both cases when forgiveness is good thing or when force is needed. Pacifism could be a destruction one brings on themselves, and pacifism and peace are not the same thing. Turning the other cheek is not justice even tho it is there in Islam in many verses like "but whoever pardons and makes reconciliation - his reward is from God. Indeed, He does not like wrongdoers".

People should know when and how to forgive turning the other cheek, and when and how to use force when needed. Sticking with only one of the extremes means the balance is lost. Islam is kinda similar to Christianity that teaches forgiveness but at the same time talks about fighting and violence in many places if taken out of context and focused on those verses only, one thinks Christianity is only about violence and fighting.

Any religion worth its salt would not need to rely on violence, fighting and fear.

Would an organisation like CAIR be tolerated in Saudi Arabia if it were anti-Islamic?

Questions that CAIR Refuses to Answer

EDIT:

You seem like a reasonable Muslim and I would like to thank you for your input in this thread.

Would you be prepared to watch and comment on this film?

Do you identify with Islamic Jihad?

T.I.A.

 

[psychoslice]

You're welcome!

I'm afraid this world is not a perfect peaceful world. Islam is meant to be in the middle, no opening doors for offenders to murder and rape people while watching doing nothing on the one hand, nor just transgress and eradicate every single obstacle with pure force on the other to get along with this world. Some might think that know the world is peaceful and that pacifism and turning the other cheek is always the right thing to do, but that's not true and if that was adopted in the past by some people, they would have been erased from the face of the planet with no mercy. It is believed in Islam that a good teaching should cover both cases when forgiveness is good thing or when force is needed. Pacifism could be a destruction one brings on themselves, and pacifism and peace are not the same thing. Turning the other cheek is not justice even tho it is there in Islam in many verses like "but whoever pardons and makes reconciliation - his reward is from God. Indeed, He does not like wrongdoers".

People should know when and how to forgive turning the other cheek, and when and how to use force when needed. Sticking with only one of the extremes means the balance is lost. Islam is kinda similar to Christianity that teaches forgiveness but at the same time talks about fighting and violence in many places if taken out of context and focused on those verses only, one thinks Christianity is only about violence and fighting.

But why all the violence with Islam, ok, Christianity was also violent back in the dark-ages, so how long is it going to be until Islam stops their violence ? , like if i said these same words in their country I would have my head off by now, now be honest ?.

 

[Muffled]

Proverbs 21:19 (New Living Translation)
It is better to live alone in the desert than with a crabby, complaining wife.


There's the story of Isaac’s son, who smelled like a farm.
Genesis 27:27 (New International Version)
So he went to him and kissed him. When Isaac caught the smell of his clothes, he blessed him and said, "Ah, the smell of my son is like the smell of a field that the LORD has blessed.

2 Kings 2:23-24 (New International Version)
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!"

He turned around, and looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord.

Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

And the Qur'an.
Allah likes sneezing but hates yawning[edit]
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah likes sneezing and dislikes yawning, so if someone sneezes and then praises Allah, then it is obligatory on every Muslim who heard him, to say: May Allah be merciful to you (Yar-hamuka-l-lah). But as regards yawning, it is from satan, so one must try one's best to stop it, if one says 'Ha' when yawning, satan will laugh at him."

The art of dealing with a fart[edit]
Narrated Ali ibn Talq: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) said: When any of you breaks wind during the prayer, he should turn away and perform ablution and repeat the prayer.
Abu Dawud 1:205
Narrated 'Abbas bin Tamim: My uncle asked Allah's Apostle about a person who imagined to have passed wind during the prayer. Allah' Apostle replied: "He should not leave his prayers unless he hears sound or smells something."
Sahih Bukhari 1:4:139
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah does not accept prayer of anyone of you if he does Hadath (passes wind) till he performs the ablution (anew)."
Sahih Bukhari 9:86:86
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a: The Prophet forbade laughing at a person who passes wind.
Sahih Bukhari 8:73:68
And Allah taught Adam all the names as follows: He taught him the name of everything, down to fart and little fart.
Tabari I 267.

These are only a very small number of unusual verses.............so, why do some take the scriptures literal with verses such as these ??.

I believe what you attributed to the Qu'ran is actually from Hadiths which are not the word of God.

I believe I can't see your problem. You have never smelled dairy air?

 

[Muffled]

14. Genesis 16:8

And he said “Hagar, Sarai’s slave girl, where have you come from and where are you going?” She answered, “I’m running away from Sarai, my mistress.” The angel of the Lord said to her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to ill treatment at her hands.”

I believe you are misquoting. The angel said nothing about ill treatment. It is an assumption on your part. Even the hardness that Sarai had placed upon her servant is not the same thing as ill treatment. I believe if Hagar really returned to be submissive then Sarai would not be as hard on her. It was lording it over her mistress that got her in trouble in the first place.

 

[Muffled]

I think it is time to make 'scripture' out of the words of many modern teachers that we find spiritually advanced or inspired. 'Scripture' has too much been tied to the ancient.

"The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls" lyrics from the Sounds of Silence by Simon and Garfunkle. I believe the words of God far outweigh any modern thinkers words.

 

[George-ananda]

"The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls" lyrics from the Sounds of Silence by Simon and Garfunkle. I believe the words of God far outweigh any modern thinkers words.

I guess the question then becomes why should the old scriptures be revered and the new ones dismissed? If there is a God, and I think there is, why would He stop inspiring people through advanced souls and teachers? Why 2,000 years ago would scriptures have ended.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Any religion worth its salt would not need to rely on violence, fighting and fear.

Would an organisation like CAIR be tolerated in Saudi Arabia if it were anti-Islamic?

Questions that CAIR Refuses to Answer

EDIT:

You seem like a reasonable Muslim and I would like to thank you for your input in this thread.

Would you be prepared to watch and comment on this film?

Do you identify with Islamic Jihad?

T.I.A.

I personally think that any religion, law, way of life or ideology worth their salt would "consider" violence, fighting and fear and do them within reason to apply apply them when they are really needed (Islam doesn't really need to rely on them, per say). It is like a country rich or resources run by pacifist people with no borders nor government with a defense line ready. I'm sure you know what Australians did to the indigenous people, the Americans to the native Americans, the French to Algeria... Give L.A. in USA a couple of days without police or security means, announcing that to the mass, and see what happens to it. I know it won't be beautiful. One should be ready, prepared and have a capable defense line when it is needed. Not everyone in this life can be trusted or is peaceful. Having that said does not mean we shouldn't look at people with a good eye, of course.

My point is, my friend, one has to be ready. I'm not really into violence with bloodthirsty seeking it, nor is Islam. A good way of life should know when kindness and forgiveness (letting things slide) are to be practice when it's okay on one hand, and hitting with a hand of steel when needed, necessary or no other choice is there. Even parents, schools, business have both leniency and seriousness approaches with their subordinates.

I don't really know much about CAIR to comment on that. You know such matters have deep details to look into and study before passing a judgement.

I don't identify with Islamic Jihad the way you probably see it, but basically I'm a versatile person that looks at things from their all sides, not just one, and wouldn't completely neglect the basics it's originally built on. But in general, I prefer solving thing peacefully way much more than anything else.

I'll see if I'll have a look at that video, but to be honest with you, I prefer fooling around and have fun with people instead so I can't promise you that. I don't really like debating and arguing with people as much as I would love to make friends then fool around having fun with them.

I'm willing to answer any of your questions and welcome them with an open arms and mind. But I honestly try to run away from the trouble (like brainstorming and searching, I don't mean not the bad meaning of trouble) it causes. Please keep in mind what I just said above

 

[Smart_Guy]

But why all the violence with Islam, ok, Christianity was also violent back in the dark-ages, so how long is it going to be until Islam stops their violence ? , like if i said these same words in their country I would have my head off by now, now be honest ?.

To be honest with you, I'm not sure myself. If I'm to make a guess, I'd say because "Muslims" don't want to stop the violence. Believe me, it hurt me much more than it hurts you. I'm worried that at any moment now those terrorists close by would hammer the place I live in before I know it. If Christianity "was" violent in the past, then surely there is something wrong not with Christianity it self, but with Christians back at the day. Remember also that once upon a time Islam had a Golden Age involving with science, architecture and art when at the same time Christians only cared about hunting witches to burn them. It is people, my friend. People are the major game changer in everything.

 

[Notanumber]

I personally think that any religion, law, way of life or ideology worth their salt would "consider" violence, fighting and fear and do them within reason to apply apply them when they are really needed (Islam doesn't really need to rely on them, per say). It is like a country rich or resources run by pacifist people with no borders nor government with a defense line ready. I'm sure you know what Australians did to the indigenous people, the Americans to the native Americans, the French to Algeria... Give L.A. in USA a couple of days without police or security means, announcing that to the mass, and see what happens to it. I know it won't be beautiful. One should be ready, prepared and have a capable defense line when it is needed. Not everyone in this life can be trusted or is peaceful. Having that said does not mean we shouldn't look at people with a good eye, of course.

My point is, my friend, one has to be ready. I'm not really into violence with bloodthirsty seeking it, nor is Islam. A good way of life should know when kindness and forgiveness (letting things slide) are to be practice when it's okay on one hand, and hitting with a hand of steel when needed, necessary or no other choice is there. Even parents, schools, business have both leniency and seriousness approaches with their subordinates.

I don't really know much about CAIR to comment on that. You know such matters have deep details to look into and study before passing a judgement.

I don't identify with Islamic Jihad the way you probably see it, but basically I'm a versatile person that looks at things from their all sides, not just one, and wouldn't completely neglect the basics it's originally built on. But in general, I prefer solving thing peacefully way much more than anything else.

I'll see if I'll have a look at that video, but to be honest with you, I prefer fooling around and have fun with people instead so I can't promise you that. I don't really like debating and arguing with people as much as I would love to make friends then fool around having fun with them.

I'm willing to answer any of your questions and welcome them with an open arms and mind. But I honestly try to run away from the trouble (like brainstorming and searching, I don't mean not the bad meaning of trouble) it causes. Please keep in mind what I just said above

A fundamental difference between Islam and the West is that we separated our laws from religion a long time ago. This is why Sharia Law is not compatible with our legal system. I would not want it any other way. Even these secular laws do not promote violence, fighting and fear. Vigilantes are frowned upon.

All the evidence tells us that Islam is into bloodthirstily seeking and using violence. Hands of steel may be required in Islamic countries, but here in the UK we go in for a soft touch approach. Some say our penal system is too soft, but we would not like to go back to a brutal regime.

I have provided some information about CAIR for you.

CAIR was created by the Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamic supremacist organization that pioneered 20th century Islamic terrorism and sanctions violence against civilians.

CAIR founders have praised terrorists to Muslim audiences and said that suicide bombers are acting on behalf of Islam.

CAIR board members have called for the overthrow of the United States and the imposition of Islamic law. CAIR has suggested applying Sharia punishment (ie. the death penalty) to users who criticize Islam on the Internet.

CAIR has discouraged Muslim-Americans from cooperating with law enforcement and has spent more time and money advocating on behalf of convicted terrorists than for their victims.

CAIR receives financial support from foreign powers who have also provided direct support to Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda and Hamas.

I felt it was my duty to watch the film, unsettling as it was. If you can find the time to watch it, I would value your thoughts.

The West has been running and hiding from trouble ever since they started this social experiment called Multiculturalism.

 

[psychoslice]

I believe what you attributed to the Qu'ran is actually from Hadiths which are not the word of God.

I believe I can't see your problem. You have never smelled dairy air?

So those words are not worth anything ?.

 

[psychoslice]

I believe you are misquoting. The angel said nothing about ill treatment. It is an assumption on your part. Even the hardness that Sarai had placed upon her servant is not the same thing as ill treatment. I believe if Hagar really returned to be submissive then Sarai would not be as hard on her. It was lording it over her mistress that got her in trouble in the first place.

We all like to protect our beliefs don't we.

 

[psychoslice]

To be honest with you, I'm not sure myself. If I'm to make a guess, I'd say because "Muslims" don't want to stop the violence. Believe me, it hurt me much more than it hurts you. I'm worried that at any moment now those terrorists close by would hammer the place I live in before I know it. If Christianity "was" violent in the past, then surely there is something wrong not with Christianity it self, but with Christians back at the day. Remember also that once upon a time Islam had a Golden Age involving with science, architecture and art when at the same time Christians only cared about hunting witches to burn them. It is people, my friend. People are the major game changer in everything.

Yes its about time we get rid of those who took away your golden age, but it needs all good Muslims to stand up and be heard, in stead of being afraid of saying anything.

 

[Smart_Guy]

A fundamental difference between Islam and the West is that we separated our laws from religion a long time ago. This is why Sharia Law is not compatible with our legal system. I would not want it any other way. Even these secular laws do not promote violence, fighting and fear. Vigilantes are frowned upon.

All the evidence tells us that Islam is into bloodthirstily seeking and using violence. Hands of steel may be required in Islamic countries, but here in the UK we go in for a soft touch approach. Some say our penal system is too soft, but we would not like to go back to a brutal regime.

I have provided some information about CAIR for you.

CAIR was created by the Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamic supremacist organization that pioneered 20th century Islamic terrorism and sanctions violence against civilians.

CAIR founders have praised terrorists to Muslim audiences and said that suicide bombers are acting on behalf of Islam.

CAIR board members have called for the overthrow of the United States and the imposition of Islamic law. CAIR has suggested applying Sharia punishment (ie. the death penalty) to users who criticize Islam on the Internet.

CAIR has discouraged Muslim-Americans from cooperating with law enforcement and has spent more time and money advocating on behalf of convicted terrorists than for their victims.

CAIR receives financial support from foreign powers who have also provided direct support to Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda and Hamas.

I felt it was my duty to watch the film, unsettling as it was. If you can find the time to watch it, I would value your thoughts.

The West has been running and hiding from trouble ever since they started this social experiment called Multiculturalism.

I see...

Well, I respect your views in this and I actually do believe they have truth behind them.

Thank you for the info you provided about CAIR. I hope the video is not long and boring. I'm kinda addicted to cartoons and can't watch documentaries more that for a short while

 

[Muffled]

I guess the question then becomes why should the old scriptures be revered and the new ones dismissed? If there is a God, and I think there is, why would He stop inspiring people through advanced souls and teachers? Why 2,000 years ago would scriptures have ended.

I believe God sends messengers to promote scripture writing but Mohammed was the last one. I believe the "B" man did not produce scripture because His writings are philosophy and not the words of God. I don't believe God has sent anyone since Mohammed despite some who like to make claims.

 

[Muffled]

We all like to protect our beliefs don't we.

I believe a belief should be well founded and not illogical. I am not going to try to defend an illogical belief but I will certainly find fault with other people's illogical beliefs.

 

[Muffled]

Yes its about time we get rid of those who took away your golden age, but it needs all good Muslims to stand up and be heard, in stead of being afraid of saying anything.

I beleive they are speaking out but the bombs tend to drown them out and the news media likes bombs better.

 

[Notanumber]

I beleive they are speaking out but the bombs tend to drown them out and the news media likes bombs better.

Are there any YouTube videos of moderate Muslims marching on mass to demonstrate their repulsion for their violent brothers?

 

[George-ananda]

I believe God sends messengers to promote scripture writing but Mohammed was the last one. I believe the "B" man did not produce scripture because His writings are philosophy and not the words of God. I don't believe God has sent anyone since Mohammed despite some who like to make claims.

Who is the 'B' man? The Baha'i prophet?

Also I was referring more to people outside of the Abrahmic traditions. People of eastern and new age traditions

Why do you not follow the Koran then if you believe Mohammed was a prophet?

 

[psychoslice]

I believe a belief should be well founded and not illogical. I am not going to try to defend an illogical belief but I will certainly find fault with other people's illogical beliefs.

Yes and they find fault with your's, and so it goes on and on.

 

[psychoslice]

I beleive they are speaking out but the bombs tend to drown them out and the news media likes bombs better.

Yes that could be true, but there are millions who are not living where the bombs are dropped.