YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
My irony meter is trashed.I love how the OP was trying to bash on Muslims but it's a Jew getting on him instead.
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Islam's Fatal Denial of the Trinity?
- Thread starter 9-18-1
- Start date
9-18-1
Active Member
2. Hebrew Letters and Word Analysis
In order to proceed with arguments 1.0 and 1.1 it is necessary to understand some very basic things about the language of Hebrew. Though this topic is vast, I will only explore it to the extent as to how it will serve in the argumentation of 1.1 and 1.2. As such, we must explore the letters which comprise the following names: יהוה and אלהים.
First; it is important to understand that Hebrew is not only a language: it is a comprehensive numerical system wherein each letter is also a number.
א (aleph) is the 1st letter of the Hebrew aleph-bait and denotes the number 1 and/or 1000. It is comprised of two other letters: ו (vav) and י (yud). One diagonal vav (which itself contains its own yud) is flanked by two additional yuds: yielding three total yuds connected to one central column. These three yuds (I argue) actually capture the essence of g.o.d.: the generating (positive) principle, the operating (neutral) principle, and the dissolving (negative) principle. It is the same symbol which denotes a firmament dividing superior waters from inferior waters (as described in day two of Genesis) and will be the basis of the construction of each day of creation: will (neutral) followed by generative (positive) and dissolving (negative) which will be handled in the 'creation' account of Genesis later.
ו (vav) is the 6th letter of the Hebrew aleph-bait and denotes the number 6. It is comprised of one yud י extended downward to produce ו. It is a symbol of the brain (yud) extended downward into the human spine (vav). As such, vav is one brain-spine unit which is why it correlates to the number 6: according to Moses' first book of Genesis, man (Adam) was created on the sixth day.
מ/ם (mem) (final/open) is the 13th letter of the Hebrew aleph-bait and denotes the number 40. Its open form is comprised of one kaf and one leaning vav and denotes "running" water as in a river/stream. Its closed form denotes pooled water that is not "running" such as in a lake or ocean.
ל (lamed) is the 12th letter of the Hebrew aleph-bait and denotes the number 30. It denotes a "tower" which stretches up into the highest reaches of the beyond and serves as having the conduit through which to descend down into the lower reaches of terrestrial life. In essence it captures that which is above and channels it down into that which is below; in accordance with the axiom "as above, so below" that is held by (the) 'God of Abraham' of which we are concerned with.
ה (heh) is the 5th letter of the Hebrew aleph-bait and denotes the number 5. It denotes the primordial matrix and/or "womb" of creation and is understood as a window. It is thus related to the sex and voice as when an individual undergoes hormonal changes (puberty) his/her voice changes accordingly.
These five letters are all that is required to analyze/understand the names יהוה and אלהים. However as I have made a separate section of these wherein such analysis will take place, I feel it important to examine the basic word for 'god' which is rendered in Hebrew as אל.
As indicated above, the aleph contains three yuds; one of which is connected to (extends as) a vav. This relationship of three yuds precisely captures the fundamental essence of g.o.d. wherein there is a central column (human spine) surrounded by a superior yud (higher) and an inferior yud (lower). In synthesis as it pertains to the human body, the vav is the brain/spine centered at the heart, whereas the superior yud is above in the brain and the inferior yud is in the sex on the vertical axis, whereas the two lungs on the horizontal axis and acts as a further synthesis demonstrating how/why the physical body is mostly symmetrical and a mirror image. As such, the word אל can literally indicate the Trinity (three yuds; with careful consideration to the definition I am arguing in this piece and not one attained outside of it) that descends from above via a means of a "tower" which reaches terrestrial life. This simple understanding is not a "thing" and/or an "entity" - it is not three separate concepts/ideas in the same way that none of the yuds of aleph are "disconnected" from the spine.
I would thus argue that by merely understanding the letter א (aleph) one can not deny the existence of a Triune "process" through which creation manifests. In other words, there are three yuds for a reason - far removed from being arbitrary. The mere existence of this letter in the simple name of god אל and indeed אלהים demonstrate that at the fountainhead of creation exists g.o.d.: a generating principle, an operating principle, and a dissolving principle. It is these three principles that give rise to Trinitarian systems such as Father/Son/Holy Spirit, Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva and Kether (Crowned) Chokmah (Wisdom) Binah (Understanding). In other words, one can not have 'creation' without the three modalities as captured by the letter א (aleph). This Trinity (and the understanding of it not as three, but as one) will serve to unlock much of what Moses writes in Genesis as the entire process of creation necessarily utilizes and calls upon g.o.d. including the 'days' of creation.
In order to proceed with arguments 1.0 and 1.1 it is necessary to understand some very basic things about the language of Hebrew. Though this topic is vast, I will only explore it to the extent as to how it will serve in the argumentation of 1.1 and 1.2. As such, we must explore the letters which comprise the following names: יהוה and אלהים.
First; it is important to understand that Hebrew is not only a language: it is a comprehensive numerical system wherein each letter is also a number.
א (aleph) is the 1st letter of the Hebrew aleph-bait and denotes the number 1 and/or 1000. It is comprised of two other letters: ו (vav) and י (yud). One diagonal vav (which itself contains its own yud) is flanked by two additional yuds: yielding three total yuds connected to one central column. These three yuds (I argue) actually capture the essence of g.o.d.: the generating (positive) principle, the operating (neutral) principle, and the dissolving (negative) principle. It is the same symbol which denotes a firmament dividing superior waters from inferior waters (as described in day two of Genesis) and will be the basis of the construction of each day of creation: will (neutral) followed by generative (positive) and dissolving (negative) which will be handled in the 'creation' account of Genesis later.
ו (vav) is the 6th letter of the Hebrew aleph-bait and denotes the number 6. It is comprised of one yud י extended downward to produce ו. It is a symbol of the brain (yud) extended downward into the human spine (vav). As such, vav is one brain-spine unit which is why it correlates to the number 6: according to Moses' first book of Genesis, man (Adam) was created on the sixth day.
מ/ם (mem) (final/open) is the 13th letter of the Hebrew aleph-bait and denotes the number 40. Its open form is comprised of one kaf and one leaning vav and denotes "running" water as in a river/stream. Its closed form denotes pooled water that is not "running" such as in a lake or ocean.
ל (lamed) is the 12th letter of the Hebrew aleph-bait and denotes the number 30. It denotes a "tower" which stretches up into the highest reaches of the beyond and serves as having the conduit through which to descend down into the lower reaches of terrestrial life. In essence it captures that which is above and channels it down into that which is below; in accordance with the axiom "as above, so below" that is held by (the) 'God of Abraham' of which we are concerned with.
ה (heh) is the 5th letter of the Hebrew aleph-bait and denotes the number 5. It denotes the primordial matrix and/or "womb" of creation and is understood as a window. It is thus related to the sex and voice as when an individual undergoes hormonal changes (puberty) his/her voice changes accordingly.
These five letters are all that is required to analyze/understand the names יהוה and אלהים. However as I have made a separate section of these wherein such analysis will take place, I feel it important to examine the basic word for 'god' which is rendered in Hebrew as אל.
As indicated above, the aleph contains three yuds; one of which is connected to (extends as) a vav. This relationship of three yuds precisely captures the fundamental essence of g.o.d. wherein there is a central column (human spine) surrounded by a superior yud (higher) and an inferior yud (lower). In synthesis as it pertains to the human body, the vav is the brain/spine centered at the heart, whereas the superior yud is above in the brain and the inferior yud is in the sex on the vertical axis, whereas the two lungs on the horizontal axis and acts as a further synthesis demonstrating how/why the physical body is mostly symmetrical and a mirror image. As such, the word אל can literally indicate the Trinity (three yuds; with careful consideration to the definition I am arguing in this piece and not one attained outside of it) that descends from above via a means of a "tower" which reaches terrestrial life. This simple understanding is not a "thing" and/or an "entity" - it is not three separate concepts/ideas in the same way that none of the yuds of aleph are "disconnected" from the spine.
I would thus argue that by merely understanding the letter א (aleph) one can not deny the existence of a Triune "process" through which creation manifests. In other words, there are three yuds for a reason - far removed from being arbitrary. The mere existence of this letter in the simple name of god אל and indeed אלהים demonstrate that at the fountainhead of creation exists g.o.d.: a generating principle, an operating principle, and a dissolving principle. It is these three principles that give rise to Trinitarian systems such as Father/Son/Holy Spirit, Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva and Kether (Crowned) Chokmah (Wisdom) Binah (Understanding). In other words, one can not have 'creation' without the three modalities as captured by the letter א (aleph). This Trinity (and the understanding of it not as three, but as one) will serve to unlock much of what Moses writes in Genesis as the entire process of creation necessarily utilizes and calls upon g.o.d. including the 'days' of creation.
Last edited:
9-18-1
Active Member
I love how the OP was trying to bash on Muslims but it's a Jew getting on him instead.
To borrow from the books of Moses - a simple story.
The principle idea of Kayin (Cain) is he generates enmity to a degree which makes him behave in a hostile way (desire to attack / spill blood). A true Jew would understand this. As such one who is a true "Jew" would check his/her own Kayin before attempting to be hostile against arguments that have not even been made yet.
Only one who has an "ego" ("I"; Tower of Babel) can become "offended". One who is offended can grow enmity. Enmity leads to animal behavior and hatred/divisiveness. This is a simple Torah story that a true Jew would know.
In fact this is precisely how one tells the mark of Kayin: when one is full of enmity, he/she bears out the mark for those with the eyes to see. Tumah is not a true Jew - if he were he would not have reacted with hostility stemming from enmity - a behavior more closely resembling Kayin.
My irony meter is trashed.
For the ones who say they are Jews and are not - indeed my own meter is trashed as well.
9-18-1
Active Member
Well here are some reasons:
1. The institution(s) of Christianity and Islam are hypocritically contrary to the books of Moses and I would see them either reformed/destroyed
2. Understanding the Trinity unlocks the nature of 'Elohim' which, according to Moses, created the heavens and the earth (not Jesus/Allah)
3. The real rabbit hole are the monotheistic institutions of the world that corrupt what would otherwise be a simple thing to embrace
and I do not identify as a "smart person". Intelligence is subjective: a person with an IQ of 140 looks "smart" in the presence of someone with one of 70. Likewise a person with an IQ of 280 looks "smart" in the presence of one with an IQ of 140. As such general "intelligence" is wholly subjective and is only measured in terms of ones own surroundings. I therefor do not objectify intelligence.
In fact I argue its inverse: real intelligence is the recognition of what one does *not* know rather than what one (thinks they may) know. There are some things I know, but identify with that which I do not know as this is the very basis of knowing more. Once one has settled into a state of 'knowing', they will never move beyond which is why I wish to continue arguing that Christianity/Islam, and the model(s) thereof, are not based in knowledge but rather ignorance (belief).
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
I gave you names of God from Islam that we can clearly see in terms of the vague principles you offered that comprise your definition of 'Trinity'.
The understanding of Trinity in terms of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is no where present in your definition. So what 'Trinity' are you taking about?
The 'Trinity' you put forth resembles a Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva trinity.
Another 'trinity' of 'principles' might be omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omnipresent.
So we need to know what sort of trinity you are talking about that it should be present in Judaism and Christianity but conspicuously absent from Islam. It might also be a good idea to preface your statements with a warning that you are not taking the commonly understood definition of 'Trinity' that readers will automatically assume you are talking about. The common understanding is: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
9-18-1
Active Member
1. The name (and/or title) YHVH יהוה
Having provided a brief overview of the letters in question, herein lies a synthesis of what the name YHVH means in terms of its construction.
As a foreword; if one were to strike up a conversation with a newly met person, what is the first thing one might desire to know of them? Only speaking for myself, it would be their name. When it comes to the Tetragrammaton - I simply adopt the same sentiment: what is the name of (the) 'God of Abraham' (as denoted by Moses), and what could it mean?
The first letter is yud and is pronounced in the uppermost region of the throat: "ee".
The second letter is heh and is pronounced from the chest: "ah".
The third letter is vav and is pronounced from the guttural: "oo".
As such the string of the first three letters begins in the uppermost region (throat) and ends in the guttural region (base of spine). These three letters produce a phonetic "eeahoo" which covers the entire spectrum of the vocal range: highest to lowest.
Herein we are reminded that there are three primary centers of the body: brain, heart and sex. These centers actually correlate to (the) three brains:
____________________________________________________________
IMAGE: www.gnosticteachings.org
For use of visual aid only - not an endorsement/solicitation of the site and/or contents therein.
As was argued in 2.0, vav is the brain connected to the spine which stretches down into the sex as, given the image above, is precisely captured by the red curve. This vav begins in the base of the brain and extends down into the sex which forms the basis of Adam: the 6th letter/day wherein man is created on according to the first book of Moses. The first yud is the brain which sits at/as the "head" of the body (as well as in the Tetragrammaton) and the heh is in the throat/chest from whence "ah" is formed. As such, the pronunciation of the first three letters yud-heh-vav "eeahoo" corresponds as:
Intellectual (first yud)
Emotional (second heh)
Motor-Instinctual Sexual (third vav)
However there is a second heh at the end of the first yud heh vav. As was argued in 2.0, the heh denotes a womb/matrix wherein a seed can gestate if/when fecundated. As such, the "quality" of the womb can manifest in one of two forms: "pure" and/or "impure". This problem is precisely handled in the first book of Moses regarding G-d warning Adam not to eat the forbidden fruits as it will result in death whereas Eve is told one will not die but become like Elohim - which is to know "purity" and "impurity". It is important to note: the English translations of the Hebrew words: טוב and רע (tov and ra) are commonly translated as "good" and "evil" respectively but more closely indicate "purity" and "impurity".
As such the womb (heh) can manifest in one of two ways: pure and/or impure. This notion is captured by the common depiction of the Son of Man (Jesus) flanked on either side by a virgin and a whore and/or two thiefs. This dual nature of the womb (heh) is precisely why it is required to appear twice in the name of (the) 'God of Abraham': YHVH.
In synthesis: the Tetragrammaton can be understood in the following way: a primordial yud extending into a vav (brain/spine) with a heh (womb) on either side depicting a path of "purity" and a path of "impurity" - capturing the essence of the primordial Edenic fall wherein man chose impurity (fornication) rather than purity (chastity). This is why there exists a multitude of "saviors" born of a "virgin" - when one cleanses his/her own being (from impure to pure), he/she is "born" from a virgin womb as, I will later argue, the 26-letter string of characters that form Genesis 1:1 is actually a blueprint for a 3,10 torus knot that describes a seed-in-womb contraption wherein the "seed" is constantly being "born" into and from a "womb" whose quality is determined by the seed itself in accordance with Genesis 1:11 "whose seed is in itself". This contraption of seed-in-womb is precisely what the name יהוה captures: the seed is yud extending into a vav and the womb is the potentiality of purity/impurity which surround it:
..Y..
HVH
As such, the first three letters contain the components of head/heart/sex and, when the second womb (heh) is added, the name constructs an extended yud into a vav (man - 6th day) wherein he/she is surrounded by two possibilities: purity and impurity. The story of Genesis of "man" (Adam) being placed in a garden of Eden (delight) given a choice between Adam eating the fruits and "dying" and Eve eating the fruits and "becoming like Elohim" are the two paths: the former as a result of impurity (fornication) and the latter as a result of purity (chastity) which allows one to utilize the vital energies and use them to "create" just as the Elohim use them to create.
In consideration with this, it is clear that while there are three distinct centers of head/heart/sex, they all pertain to one 'body'. In precisely the same way, to treat the head/heart/sex as three distinct and separate 'things' or 'gods' is completely erroneous: there is only one 'body' within which these three components act as a cooperation. How one thinks is how one feels, and how one feels guides his/her behavior(s). They are not separate things: but unified in and as one. Such is the nature of man, such is the nature of YHVH, and such is the nature of the Trinity (as defined in this argument).
Having provided a brief overview of the letters in question, herein lies a synthesis of what the name YHVH means in terms of its construction.
As a foreword; if one were to strike up a conversation with a newly met person, what is the first thing one might desire to know of them? Only speaking for myself, it would be their name. When it comes to the Tetragrammaton - I simply adopt the same sentiment: what is the name of (the) 'God of Abraham' (as denoted by Moses), and what could it mean?
The first letter is yud and is pronounced in the uppermost region of the throat: "ee".
The second letter is heh and is pronounced from the chest: "ah".
The third letter is vav and is pronounced from the guttural: "oo".
As such the string of the first three letters begins in the uppermost region (throat) and ends in the guttural region (base of spine). These three letters produce a phonetic "eeahoo" which covers the entire spectrum of the vocal range: highest to lowest.
Herein we are reminded that there are three primary centers of the body: brain, heart and sex. These centers actually correlate to (the) three brains:
____________________________________________________________
IMAGE: www.gnosticteachings.org
For use of visual aid only - not an endorsement/solicitation of the site and/or contents therein.
As was argued in 2.0, vav is the brain connected to the spine which stretches down into the sex as, given the image above, is precisely captured by the red curve. This vav begins in the base of the brain and extends down into the sex which forms the basis of Adam: the 6th letter/day wherein man is created on according to the first book of Moses. The first yud is the brain which sits at/as the "head" of the body (as well as in the Tetragrammaton) and the heh is in the throat/chest from whence "ah" is formed. As such, the pronunciation of the first three letters yud-heh-vav "eeahoo" corresponds as:
Intellectual (first yud)
Emotional (second heh)
Motor-Instinctual Sexual (third vav)
However there is a second heh at the end of the first yud heh vav. As was argued in 2.0, the heh denotes a womb/matrix wherein a seed can gestate if/when fecundated. As such, the "quality" of the womb can manifest in one of two forms: "pure" and/or "impure". This problem is precisely handled in the first book of Moses regarding G-d warning Adam not to eat the forbidden fruits as it will result in death whereas Eve is told one will not die but become like Elohim - which is to know "purity" and "impurity". It is important to note: the English translations of the Hebrew words: טוב and רע (tov and ra) are commonly translated as "good" and "evil" respectively but more closely indicate "purity" and "impurity".
As such the womb (heh) can manifest in one of two ways: pure and/or impure. This notion is captured by the common depiction of the Son of Man (Jesus) flanked on either side by a virgin and a whore and/or two thiefs. This dual nature of the womb (heh) is precisely why it is required to appear twice in the name of (the) 'God of Abraham': YHVH.
In synthesis: the Tetragrammaton can be understood in the following way: a primordial yud extending into a vav (brain/spine) with a heh (womb) on either side depicting a path of "purity" and a path of "impurity" - capturing the essence of the primordial Edenic fall wherein man chose impurity (fornication) rather than purity (chastity). This is why there exists a multitude of "saviors" born of a "virgin" - when one cleanses his/her own being (from impure to pure), he/she is "born" from a virgin womb as, I will later argue, the 26-letter string of characters that form Genesis 1:1 is actually a blueprint for a 3,10 torus knot that describes a seed-in-womb contraption wherein the "seed" is constantly being "born" into and from a "womb" whose quality is determined by the seed itself in accordance with Genesis 1:11 "whose seed is in itself". This contraption of seed-in-womb is precisely what the name יהוה captures: the seed is yud extending into a vav and the womb is the potentiality of purity/impurity which surround it:
..Y..
HVH
As such, the first three letters contain the components of head/heart/sex and, when the second womb (heh) is added, the name constructs an extended yud into a vav (man - 6th day) wherein he/she is surrounded by two possibilities: purity and impurity. The story of Genesis of "man" (Adam) being placed in a garden of Eden (delight) given a choice between Adam eating the fruits and "dying" and Eve eating the fruits and "becoming like Elohim" are the two paths: the former as a result of impurity (fornication) and the latter as a result of purity (chastity) which allows one to utilize the vital energies and use them to "create" just as the Elohim use them to create.
In consideration with this, it is clear that while there are three distinct centers of head/heart/sex, they all pertain to one 'body'. In precisely the same way, to treat the head/heart/sex as three distinct and separate 'things' or 'gods' is completely erroneous: there is only one 'body' within which these three components act as a cooperation. How one thinks is how one feels, and how one feels guides his/her behavior(s). They are not separate things: but unified in and as one. Such is the nature of man, such is the nature of YHVH, and such is the nature of the Trinity (as defined in this argument).
9-18-1
Active Member
Thank you - it is interesting, but the heart of the matter I wish to stick to is Muhammad's denial of there existing a Trinity. In fact I have much contention with Muhammad's understanding of the Trinity that he denies wherein he thought it comprised of (Joseph/Mary) and Jesus as a third of three. This was not even an orthodox understanding of the Christian Trinity which was Father/Son/Holy Spirit wherein Jesus (Christ) is one with the Father through the Holy Spirit: not of three, but of one, as one. The moment one understands the Trinity as "three" of "of three" and not "one" they are immediately off course as it pertains to both the Christian understanding (which I do not even argue in favor of) and of my own argument; Muhammad being off course of both.
It is defined below. I do not argue the validity of Father/Son/Holy Spirit but may call upon it as it is constructed on a (the) principle Trinity that does exist. The Christian handling of Father/Son/Holy Spirit is a system that helps people understand the 'Trinity' but is not the Trinity itself. It is like a garment that covers the real thing which is not a god/deity to worship but rather a real framework which can be understood as the fountainhead of creation through which Elohim 'creates' the heavens and earth as dictated by Moses:
בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ
"In the beginning [elohim] created the heavens and the earth.
This [elohim] and "Allah" can not be one and the same thing - an argument I will approach when I get into the whole business of Islam/Qur'an/Muhammad.
Indeed it does: for good reason. The Brahma (creator) Vishnu (sustainer) Shiva (destroyer) pantheon is derived from the Trinity (which I argue is at the basis of 'creation'). I am however not arguing in favor of such a Trinity, as none actually exists, but these, along with Christianity's Father/Son/Holy Spirit, are models constructed upon the basis of the only possible Trinity that exists which is wholly independent from traditions built around it/them.
I did this in my position:
While I do not and will not argue in favor of any particular religious institutions' handling of a (the) 'Trinity' (such as Christian teachings/precepts hold), I do however affirm the presence of an immutable 'Trinity' and will argue its existence ad infinitum.
and provided the definition:
'Trinity': the (single) immutable framework through which all of 'creation' employs a first principle process(es) comprised of:
generating principle (positive)
operating principle (neutral)
dissolving principle (negative)
which, while seemingly distinct, conjunctly behave as one whole
(which herein henceforth will be termed g.o.d.).
Tumah
Veteran Member
It doesn't look like you understand that difference between an argument and an assertion.
Let's take the the analysis of the first letter alef. In Jewish Law an alef is made up of three letters: two yods and a vav. In mystical texts, we find this make-up as well as others. What you've done is select a particular interpretation that breaks down the letter until you reach the point you'd like it to - three of a kind.
The problem with this approach is that you've proffered no proof that the letter alef in any way is meant to represent G-d, such that we should look to breaking down the alef to learn about Him. Perhaps we should look to a yod instead of an alef? Perhaps the letters aren't descriptive of G-d at all?
Another problem is that your selection of a particular interpretation of the letter, comes with no reason as to why that particular interpretation should be the one considered as defining above all others. Perhaps to truly understand G-d, you need to look at an alef using the two pataḥ interpretation of the Zohar.
Lastly, your interpretation of these symbols is entirely unsupported by any causal relationship. You simply present your interpretation of the symbolism, which seems designed to correlate with your other assertions. Perhaps the three yods of your selected interpretation are actually meant to represent the approximate height of a person in cubits? Perhaps your "eeaaoo" is meant to correlate with the brain, heart and stomach? Perhaps the second heh denotes the left testicle and not the womb?
All of this would probably be great if you were preaching to your choir of True Jews like yourself. But your not. You're using these assertions to support a claim in a thread where arguments are expected.
9-18-1
Active Member
1.1. The name (and/or title) Elohim אלהים
Understanding the word Elohim will be crucial toward understanding the 'creation' account of Genesis as, according to Moses, the heavens and the earth are created by Elohim:
Genesis 1:1
בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ
"In the beginning [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth.
Rather than use the traditional translation 'GOD' I will continue to use Elohim as Elohim is not a singular masculine as 'GOD' is.
The word Elohim is a composite singular: when read in-and-of itself it is a plural word containing אל 'el' (god) and אלה 'elah' (goddess) with ים at the end indicating the plurality. As such, Elohim is a plural word which describes the relationship between 'god' (masc.) and 'goddess' (fem.). However, when it is indicated from the outside (as in the preceding word 'bara') it is treated as a singular. The reason is simple: the masc. and fem. qualities of Elohim act as 'one' when observed from the outside, despite being a composite. As I set out to argue, the Christian and Islamic understandings of (the) 'God of Abraham' (God the Father/Son/Holy Spirit, Allah etc.) are far removed what Moses actually indicates here as the 'creator' of the heavens and the earth.
We find the presence of a (the) Trinity through Elohim by observing how they/it behaves. For example, whereas YHVH is often translated as 'LORD' which, as argued, contains the essence of the Trinity (acting as one), Elohim often translated 'GOD' is the manifested diversity through which creation occurs as a product of YHVH.
It will herein be argued that Elohim uses one basic structure g.o.d. to create:
Generation: [generative] Elohim "declares" something to exist
Operation: [operative] Elohim contains a "will" to create
Dissolution: [dissolving] Elohim manifests a "collapsed" creation.
This pattern is established from the onset of Genesis 1:3:
ויאמר אלהים יהי אור ויהי אור
And [Elohim] said Let there be light and there was light
Herein we find the three modalities [g.o.d.] that are a characteristic of the Trinity:
[g] Let there be light
[o] And [Elohim] said
[d] and there was light
The operating principle is will: because it is not manifest (yet) it neither "exists" as in a polarity of positive/negative. A will is inherently neutral: a state of potentiality. The active generative principle [masculine] is the calling upon light into existence "Let there be light," whereas the collapsing dissolving principle is its affirmation "and there was light". This masculine generation and feminine dissolution retains a will in between them that is shared among them: the will to call upon light calls upon masc. and fem. to act in a relationship: will to bestow (masculine) and will to receive (feminine). This will to bestow and will to receive is the same "attraction" and/or creative energy that exists in the sexual act itself wherein a man penetrates a woman.
As such the principle quality of 'Elohim' is constructed upon just this:
1. Shared will [neutral]
2. Will to bestow [positive/masculine]
3. Will to receive [negative/feminine]
Further, it is later written by Moses that man (Adam) is made in the image [masc.] and likeness [fem.] of Elohim and [male] and [female].
This basic pattern of will>>bestow>>receive [g.o.d.] is consistent throughout all days of creation and will be explored more in depth in 3. 'Creation' according to Genesis and TORAH.
As such Elohim must necessarily be both masculine and feminine. What one refers to as (the) 'God of Abraham' is:
NOT masculine
NOT feminine
but
BOTH masculine and feminine acting cooperatively in a common 'will':
g. masculine
o. will
d. feminine
Christianity and Islam, and their associated depictions of (the) 'God of Abraham' including (but not limited to) God the Father/Son/Holy Spirit, Jesus, Allah etc. thus betray the original nature/characteristics of [Elohim] being (the) 'God of Abraham' which Moses used/wrote to describe creation.
This fact alone, as it is imparted by Moses and (the) 'God of Abraham' is enough to undermine the religions of Christianity/Islam wherein the central "god" abolishes the feminine nature of Elohim. In the case of Islam and Muhammad, the latter taking to many wives (contrary to one Eve being derived from Adam) and instructing followers to likewise take many, is the result of an abhorrent failure to understand the nature of Elohim: one masculine and one feminine joined as one. It is as such written that man and woman were made as one flesh; one derived from the other, in accordance with a natural balance of creation. It is for this reason I argue not only was Muhammad ignorant of the books of Moses (which is capitulated effectively by his own claim that he couldn't read) but he and his generations have upset the balance between man and woman such that the woman has been reduced into "less" than the man; a charge (argument) I also raise against Christianity and their own ignorance of [Elohim] and how 'creation' must necessarily employ the Trinity as per g.o.d.
To close herein I add a note(s) regarding idol worship:
Exodus 20:4
לא תעשה לך פסל וכל תמונה אשר בשמים ממעל ואשר בארץ מתחת ואשר במים מתחת לארץ
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image[1] or any likeness[2] of any thing that is in heaven[3] above or that is in the earth[4] beneath or that is in the water[5] under the earth.
[1] Is the masculine as discussed above
[2] Is the feminine as discussed above
[3] Is in the head (heaven)
[4] Is in the heart (earth)
[5] Is in the waters (sex)
Christianity and Islam both utilize a graven image (idol) and associated pattern of conduct (likeness) in/of JESUS and MUHAMMAD which is:
[3] of a purely psychological composition that generates an intense
[4] emotional attachments which instructs followers to
[5] imitate the idol(s) for a living.
In essence, Christianity and Islam vehemently violates this commandment ad absurdum.
When a person(s) makes (worships) a graven image (idol; Jesus, Muhammad) and/or an associated likeness (pattern of conduct) of something(s) [that is] in the head/heart/sex, they become potently fixated to that idol via psychological/emotional attachment which demands them to "imitate" this idol for a living. This is precisely what we find in Christianity (Jesus) and Islam (Muhammad) wherein adherents attach themselves to idols and imitate them.
As such, when one (such as myself) ridicules Muhammad for having been an infidel warlord that objectified women into mere sources of sexual gratification whose only purpose is to serve men, Muslims become "offended" (which is the archetypal motivation for Kayin [Cain] to spill the blood of Havel) and generate anger/hatred that has, may, and forever will (desire to) spill blood.
Hundreds of millions are dead as a result of the institutions of Christianity/Islam. Both require a "testimony" in order to join which later will be argued is (a) the primordial violation of one of the Ten Commandments. If not for the fact that Christians/Muslims violate the testimony commandment in order to join Christianity/Islam, they would otherwise be in a state of 'peace'.
As a contemporary example, when Aasia Bibi criticized Muhammad asking Muslims what Muhammad ever did for them, Muslims became outraged and actively went door-br-door looking for her with express intention to spill her blood. This is precisely what idol worship leads to and why Moses forbid it on the Ten Commandments which, as it is written, were written in stone - the reason (I argue) being these commandments are so solid (absolute) that they are to be set firmly in stone.
Understanding the word Elohim will be crucial toward understanding the 'creation' account of Genesis as, according to Moses, the heavens and the earth are created by Elohim:
Genesis 1:1
בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ
"In the beginning [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth.
Rather than use the traditional translation 'GOD' I will continue to use Elohim as Elohim is not a singular masculine as 'GOD' is.
The word Elohim is a composite singular: when read in-and-of itself it is a plural word containing אל 'el' (god) and אלה 'elah' (goddess) with ים at the end indicating the plurality. As such, Elohim is a plural word which describes the relationship between 'god' (masc.) and 'goddess' (fem.). However, when it is indicated from the outside (as in the preceding word 'bara') it is treated as a singular. The reason is simple: the masc. and fem. qualities of Elohim act as 'one' when observed from the outside, despite being a composite. As I set out to argue, the Christian and Islamic understandings of (the) 'God of Abraham' (God the Father/Son/Holy Spirit, Allah etc.) are far removed what Moses actually indicates here as the 'creator' of the heavens and the earth.
We find the presence of a (the) Trinity through Elohim by observing how they/it behaves. For example, whereas YHVH is often translated as 'LORD' which, as argued, contains the essence of the Trinity (acting as one), Elohim often translated 'GOD' is the manifested diversity through which creation occurs as a product of YHVH.
It will herein be argued that Elohim uses one basic structure g.o.d. to create:
Generation: [generative] Elohim "declares" something to exist
Operation: [operative] Elohim contains a "will" to create
Dissolution: [dissolving] Elohim manifests a "collapsed" creation.
This pattern is established from the onset of Genesis 1:3:
ויאמר אלהים יהי אור ויהי אור
And [Elohim] said Let there be light and there was light
Herein we find the three modalities [g.o.d.] that are a characteristic of the Trinity:
[g] Let there be light
[o] And [Elohim] said
[d] and there was light
The operating principle is will: because it is not manifest (yet) it neither "exists" as in a polarity of positive/negative. A will is inherently neutral: a state of potentiality. The active generative principle [masculine] is the calling upon light into existence "Let there be light," whereas the collapsing dissolving principle is its affirmation "and there was light". This masculine generation and feminine dissolution retains a will in between them that is shared among them: the will to call upon light calls upon masc. and fem. to act in a relationship: will to bestow (masculine) and will to receive (feminine). This will to bestow and will to receive is the same "attraction" and/or creative energy that exists in the sexual act itself wherein a man penetrates a woman.
As such the principle quality of 'Elohim' is constructed upon just this:
1. Shared will [neutral]
2. Will to bestow [positive/masculine]
3. Will to receive [negative/feminine]
Further, it is later written by Moses that man (Adam) is made in the image [masc.] and likeness [fem.] of Elohim and [male] and [female].
This basic pattern of will>>bestow>>receive [g.o.d.] is consistent throughout all days of creation and will be explored more in depth in 3. 'Creation' according to Genesis and TORAH.
As such Elohim must necessarily be both masculine and feminine. What one refers to as (the) 'God of Abraham' is:
NOT masculine
NOT feminine
but
BOTH masculine and feminine acting cooperatively in a common 'will':
g. masculine
o. will
d. feminine
Christianity and Islam, and their associated depictions of (the) 'God of Abraham' including (but not limited to) God the Father/Son/Holy Spirit, Jesus, Allah etc. thus betray the original nature/characteristics of [Elohim] being (the) 'God of Abraham' which Moses used/wrote to describe creation.
This fact alone, as it is imparted by Moses and (the) 'God of Abraham' is enough to undermine the religions of Christianity/Islam wherein the central "god" abolishes the feminine nature of Elohim. In the case of Islam and Muhammad, the latter taking to many wives (contrary to one Eve being derived from Adam) and instructing followers to likewise take many, is the result of an abhorrent failure to understand the nature of Elohim: one masculine and one feminine joined as one. It is as such written that man and woman were made as one flesh; one derived from the other, in accordance with a natural balance of creation. It is for this reason I argue not only was Muhammad ignorant of the books of Moses (which is capitulated effectively by his own claim that he couldn't read) but he and his generations have upset the balance between man and woman such that the woman has been reduced into "less" than the man; a charge (argument) I also raise against Christianity and their own ignorance of [Elohim] and how 'creation' must necessarily employ the Trinity as per g.o.d.
To close herein I add a note(s) regarding idol worship:
Exodus 20:4
לא תעשה לך פסל וכל תמונה אשר בשמים ממעל ואשר בארץ מתחת ואשר במים מתחת לארץ
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image[1] or any likeness[2] of any thing that is in heaven[3] above or that is in the earth[4] beneath or that is in the water[5] under the earth.
[1] Is the masculine as discussed above
[2] Is the feminine as discussed above
[3] Is in the head (heaven)
[4] Is in the heart (earth)
[5] Is in the waters (sex)
Christianity and Islam both utilize a graven image (idol) and associated pattern of conduct (likeness) in/of JESUS and MUHAMMAD which is:
[3] of a purely psychological composition that generates an intense
[4] emotional attachments which instructs followers to
[5] imitate the idol(s) for a living.
In essence, Christianity and Islam vehemently violates this commandment ad absurdum.
When a person(s) makes (worships) a graven image (idol; Jesus, Muhammad) and/or an associated likeness (pattern of conduct) of something(s) [that is] in the head/heart/sex, they become potently fixated to that idol via psychological/emotional attachment which demands them to "imitate" this idol for a living. This is precisely what we find in Christianity (Jesus) and Islam (Muhammad) wherein adherents attach themselves to idols and imitate them.
As such, when one (such as myself) ridicules Muhammad for having been an infidel warlord that objectified women into mere sources of sexual gratification whose only purpose is to serve men, Muslims become "offended" (which is the archetypal motivation for Kayin [Cain] to spill the blood of Havel) and generate anger/hatred that has, may, and forever will (desire to) spill blood.
Hundreds of millions are dead as a result of the institutions of Christianity/Islam. Both require a "testimony" in order to join which later will be argued is (a) the primordial violation of one of the Ten Commandments. If not for the fact that Christians/Muslims violate the testimony commandment in order to join Christianity/Islam, they would otherwise be in a state of 'peace'.
As a contemporary example, when Aasia Bibi criticized Muhammad asking Muslims what Muhammad ever did for them, Muslims became outraged and actively went door-br-door looking for her with express intention to spill her blood. This is precisely what idol worship leads to and why Moses forbid it on the Ten Commandments which, as it is written, were written in stone - the reason (I argue) being these commandments are so solid (absolute) that they are to be set firmly in stone.
Last edited:
9-18-1
Active Member
The aleph is not three. It is one - I stated this clearly. It is you, friend, that insists on breaking things up into many; seemingly only to attempt to use it against me despite it not being my position. Aleph is one. It is not three. It contains three yuds connected to a central column in precisely the same way ones central column (spine) connects the brain/heart/sex, hence three yuds connected to a central column.
I never suggested the letter aleph is meant to represent G-d - why would I prove something I am not arguing? Do you understand what you are doing? You are inventing assertions and alleging I am making them when they are only coming from yourself. The letter aleph itself is breath/spirit - you know that as well as I do. We use breath to intake the essence of G-d - aleph itself is not G-d neither denotes it.
Everyone is entitled to their own interpretation - I have the Zohar and make use of it, but do not hold is as any authority. You are free to interpret however you wish, but you are certainly quick to judge given I have not even made the argument(s) yet.
A lot to unpack here: my "interpretation" is not unsupported - yud represents the shaki potential and is whence all letters come. There are three yuds on an aleph which relate to ida/pingala/shushumna and have a vast array of possible applications that do not discount the ones you suggested. Indeed such are (as can be) also a synthesis. The height of a person I do not accept: the height of beings is variable as human beings were much, much taller in the past. The "eeaaoo" can indeed indicate the stomach, as the stomach is technically a "brain" but the inclusion of the two hehs (womb) can not be ignored - sex is directly implicated as all life requires sex. The heh can denote the sexual organs of either man or woman - limiting it to a left testicle is not something I accept neither is it consistent with the broader implications of the letter.
I don't claim to be a "True Jew" - once again you are projecting your own assertions outward. I expect to argue with people that:
1. Don't build their own assertions and argue against them as if they are my own.
2. Focus on the substance itself rather than the person presenting it (ad hominem).
3. Make arguments in the spirit of using Understanding and Wisdom to find Truth (as a "true" Jew would anyways).
Please see the work on Elohim before responding to anything else - it may clarify my angle - as I would hope anyone actually interested in a debate would first absorb the position in its entirety before deconstructing it. I welcome criticisms - I like being wrong and I enjoy it when people find loopholes in my work - but I also know when people are just being sour for the sake of being sour and I really did not expect such from a Jew. My experience with Jews love debates in the spirit of lifting each other higher - not trying to belittle the other. This is why I say those who are true "Jews" don't even engage in such petty rhetoric.
"natural existence of a Trinity"
it exists in the cranium but so does a lot of stuff..... .
In regards to nature since you used the term natural like you fully understand nature , can you point it out in the picture without pointing to yourself!? Didnt think so. Then the questuon arrises is intellectual narrcisism natural?
it exists in the cranium but so does a lot of stuff..... .
In regards to nature since you used the term natural like you fully understand nature , can you point it out in the picture without pointing to yourself!? Didnt think so. Then the questuon arrises is intellectual narrcisism natural?
Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
Hum... are you drinking age yet? Your thinking is very black and white. I think I'll just bow out of this ... what ever.
9-18-1
Active Member
Here are the words for 'Elohim' and 'nature' along with their associated gematria:
אלהים = 86
הטבע = 86
So with regards to whether or not one can "point" to something outside of ones self - the answer is no. Elohim and 'nature' are precisely the same thing: and because Elohim employ g.o.d. (Trinity) to create, the product(s) of which (including human beings) are one with/as Elohim, which is nature. This is precisely why Elohim stated they will make Adam (human) in their image and likeness - male and female.
As to the questuon [sic] that arrises [sic] is intellectual narrcisism [sic] natural? I would say yes - it seems a quality you project quite well.
Enmity is a characteristic of Kayin. Kayin, who is full of enmity, projects his own characteristics outward and imbues other people with them. This is the 'mark of Kayin' and can be seen in people who wield the mark and post responses, such as yours, which projects your own characteristics outward and imbues others with them.
Whatever it is that stirs enmity in you - be mindful that that very thing reveals your characteristics. As to your response in general: I'm not sure what point you were trying to make - I will guess that you are accusing me of "intellectual narrcisism [sic]" which is actually a characteristic you have and the lens through which you interpret my words which you mistake as mine, but is actually your own. This is how 'projection' works.
9-18-1
Active Member
I don't drink alcohol - it is a poison.
Some things require a black and white approach - such as what is 'true' and what is 'untrue'. It is the same symbol as Elohim dividing superior waters (what is true) from the inferior waters (what is untrue) and recapitulated by Moses' dividing of the Red Sea. Reducing things back into 'yay' or 'nay' is precisely the framework used to filter out truth from untruth.
For many people - truth is something to be feared because they will come to realize what they "believed" is untrue.
Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
Go your way, and may peace be upon you.
9-18-1
Active Member
If you say this with the same sincerity Muslims wish peace upon people like Moses - it is an empty sentiment as if Muslims truly wished 'peace' upon Moses they would actually pay consideration to what he wrote in his books.
Of course upon doing so they would discover that Muhammad not only violated every one of the Ten Commandments, but turned women into subservient slaves unto sexually degenerated men as Muhammad was.
So naturally I take your former as given but the latter as empty - peace is manufactured from within, and I am already in peace because I know where it comes from. Trying to make 'peace' an external solution as Islam does by using the sword is backwards (in proper Muhammadan fashion) which has resulted in the death of ~270 000 000 people (and counting).
Thank you you proved my point. Gawd what the hell did people do before books?
Trinitarian questions developed in context to the text. Obviously you are a theological cut and paste hobbiest. Lets talk about bigfoot!!!!!!! Thats the level this is at. Big foot is way way more interesting. I say the bible points to the potential of bigfoot existing literally. And we can drag dr who in at the same time. I am convinced dr who revived jesus he is an angel.
9-18-1
Active Member
Nay - you proved for me mine. I'm interested to see how the enmity manifests - perhaps an ad hominem[1] attack followed by a completely nonsensical rant about bigfoot[2] or something?
How can I be a "theological cut and paste hobbiest" (whatever this may be?) when I am actively arguing against theological institutions' handling of the Trinity, as well as advancing my own definition of what the Trinity is? If I were one, I would be adopting (cutting/pasting) from them and using other people's work. My arguments are my own, made by me, that denounce Christianity/Islam as inherently heretical to (the books of) Moses. Where exactly would I copy/paste such a position from?
I'm not sure where you are going with bigfoot but - if you want to argue about the existence of the Trinity which is the topic of this debate, please feel free.
I would say arguing in a framework created by the opposition is a fools errand since they invented the cut and paste.