Islamic Basics, part 1: Is the Quran perfect, timeless, and clear?

[Ponder This]

In the very limited sense that it acknowledges the revelations from the Torah and the Gospels as genuine yet ill-preserved, sure.

But it also claims that Muhammad is the "seal of the Prophets", implying that no further revelations are to ever come (33:40).





Somehow I don't think that this understanding is very compatible with Islaam.

I don't know of anyone who denies that the Quran was revealed in the 7th century by Muhammad.
So I don't see a compatibility issue here for anyone with a modicum of common sense.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

As a non-Muslim studying Islam, I'm told that Muslims claim that the Quran is perfect, timeless, and clear.

Is this a correct understanding?

(Note: In a parallel thread I'm going to ask about Muhammad.)

I was going to respond but since your original post is drenched in ambiguity, I will kindly ask you to:
define each and every one of these words with respect to the Quran with examples:

perfect
timeless
clear

 

[icehorse]

I was going to respond but since your original post is drenched in ambiguity, I will kindly ask you to:
define each and every one of these words with respect to the Quran with examples:

perfect
timeless
clear

Please remember that these are claims that Muslims make. These claims are some of a small number of claims that are the core tenets in Islam. I think the standard definitions for these terms is what we should go by, correct? In this case "perfect" means without error. Timeless means able to withstand the test of time, and applicable to all times. Clear means easily understandable.

Was that really "drenched in ambiguity"? I have to say that seems like a dodge to me.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Please remember that these are claims that Muslims make. These claims are some of a small number of claims that are the core tenets in Islam. I think the standard definitions for these terms is what we should go by, correct? In this case "perfect" means without error. Timeless means able to withstand the test of time, and applicable to all times. Clear means easily understandable.

Was that really "drenched in ambiguity"? I have to say that seems like a dodge to me.

Thanks:

With those definitions, as a Muslim these are my beliefs:

Perfect: yes.
Timeless: yes.
Clear: By itself, not always. But if interpreted by it's true interpreters, yes.

 

[icehorse]

Thanks:

With those definitions, as a Muslim these are my beliefs:

Perfect: yes.
Timeless: yes.
Clear: By itself, not always. But if interpreted by it's true interpreters, yes.

I really appreciate your response. Can you tell me more about the idea of true interpreters? Do you have to be an Imam? Can anyone become a true interpreter? thanks!

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

I really appreciate your response. Can you tell me more about the idea of true interpreters? Do you have to be an Imam? Can anyone become a true interpreter? thanks!

According to Shia Islam the true interpretation of the Quran and the intent of it's verses is only known by God who has revealed the Book. God has given this knowledge to the Prophet of Islam and the twelve infallible Imams and successors after him. Thus they are the only true interpreters of the Quran because they are the only people that have been given its knowledge. Other interpretations are only personal opinions that can be right or wrong and can easily lead to great injustice and grievous errors in the name of Islam.

 

[icehorse]

According to Shia Islam the true interpretation of the Quran and the intent of it's verses is only known by God who has revealed the Book. God has given this knowledge to the Prophet of Islam and the twelve infallible Imams and successors after him. Thus they are the only true interpreters of the Quran because they are the only people that have been given its knowledge. Other interpretations are only personal opinions that can be right or wrong and can easily lead to great injustice and grievous errors in the name of Islam.

Well that's an ENORMOUS problem, correct? Millions of life and death decisions are made everyday based on following the Quran. For example, based on what you just said, nobody alive can say that ISIS is wrong.

ouch!

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

based on what you just said, nobody alive can say that ISIS is wrong.

ouch!

I have no Idea how you reached this conclusion based on my explanations. I was implying the exact opposite.

 

[icehorse]

I have no Idea how you reached this conclusion based on my explanations. I was implying the exact opposite.

Ah, I see, you also included "the successors after the messenger" as being on the list of people who can correctly interpret the Quran. Okay, which of these successors is alive today? And if that successor makes a declaration concerning how to interpret Islam, do all Muslims agree, or do only Muslims from certain sects agree?

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Ah, I see, you also included "the successors after the messenger" as being on the list of people who can correctly interpret the Quran. Okay, which of these successors is alive today? And if that successor makes a declaration concerning how to interpret Islam, do all Muslims agree, or do only Muslims from certain sects agree?

I have repeatedly stated on this forum that different Islamic sects are worlds apart. I stated the Shia belief and we believe the twelfth successor is alive.

 

[icehorse]

I have repeatedly stated on this forum that different Islamic sects are worlds apart. I stated the Shia belief and we believe the twelfth successor is alive.

Thanks for that clarification.

Now you understand that that puts all the non-Muslims in the world in a tough spot, correct? For example, I have some concerns about Islam, and it seems to me that I should be able to learn at least SOMETHING about Islam by reading the Quran. That seems like common sense. But what I'm told over and over again is some variation of "you're doing it wrong", which is particularly frustrating when not even Muslims can agree on how to interpret the book.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

As a non-Muslim studying Islam, I'm told that Muslims claim that the Quran is perfect, timeless, and clear.

Is this a correct understanding?

(Note: In a parallel thread I'm going to ask about Muhammad.)

Muhammad hoped to be accepted first by the Jews as a prophet. They rejected him outright in Medina.
The Quran was dictated by Muhammad so as to be published after his death. His Islam prior to this had always been an oral teaching which he gleaned combining the Hebrew and Christian teachings so as to arrive at what he called Islam. And then he could become its prophet.
A man who married a 6 year old girl and consummated that relationship when she was 9.
Muhammad was a pedophile, a murderer, a thief, and a rapist. And, he was illiterate.
Would a higher power that is righteous choose that to bring its word to the world?
Therefore, the answer to your query is, yes. Muslims believe this.
Is it true? No.

 

[Firemorphic]

Well that's an ENORMOUS problem, correct? Millions of life and death decisions are made everyday based on following the Quran. For example, based on what you just said, nobody alive can say that ISIS is wrong.

I'm still waiting on those Qur'an-only terrorists you were promising me.

 

[Firemorphic]

Ah, I see, you also included "the successors after the messenger" as being on the list of people who can correctly interpret the Quran

Yet you called them "scholars".

 

[Firemorphic]

which is particularly frustrating when not even Muslims can agree on how to interpret the book.

What happened to clapping for diversity?

But really, you're quite far behind in both my discussion and S_O_D's discussion here.

 

[icehorse]

I'm still waiting on those Qur'an-only terrorists you were promising me.

Okay! A chance for you to stop sea-lioning and put some effort in. When did I promise that?

 

[icehorse]

What happened to clapping for diversity?

But really, you're quite far behind in both my discussion and S_O_D's discussion here.

Muslims who promote political Islam want to eat their cake and have it too.

On the one hand, they want to promote Islam, normalize Sharia, and so on. But on the other hand - when criticized - they claim that Islam is ineffable. Handy that. A set of ideas that can be promoted but not criticized.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Thanks for that clarification.

Now you understand that that puts all the non-Muslims in the world in a tough spot, correct? For example, I have some concerns about Islam, and it seems to me that I should be able to learn at least SOMETHING about Islam by reading the Quran. That seems like common sense. But what I'm told over and over again is some variation of "you're doing it wrong", which is particularly frustrating when not even Muslims can agree on how to interpret the book.

The Quran has a literal meaning and and many inner meanings. If the literal meaning needs disambiguation as in some verses, then that can only be performed by true interpreters. Obviously the inner meanings can also be stated by the same people only. Other than those most of the verses of the Quran are clear in their literal meanings and obviously you can learn much from those verses.

 

[icehorse]

The Quran has a literal meaning and and many inner meanings. If the literal meaning needs disambiguation as in some verses, then that can only be performed by true interpreters. Obviously the inner meanings can also be stated by the same people only. Other than those most of the verses of the Quran are clear in their literal meanings and obviously you can learn much from those verses.

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion!

Okay, to me the big question here is one of authority. Who decides who the authoritative people are? Are they self declared? Who recognizes their authority?

For most books, these issues aren't so important, but for the Quran, clearly they are. For example, the leaders of ISIS declare that they ARE following the messages in the Quran. And I have to say, from a purely logical perspective, it's hard to argue against their claims. It seems clear to me that this is a HUGE problem.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Okay, to me the big question here is one of authority. Who decides who the authoritative people are? Are they self declared? Who recognizes their authority?

God selects the people of authority and gives them the knowledge of the book.

For most books, these issues aren't so important, but for the Quran, clearly they are. For example, the leaders of ISIS declare that they ARE following the messages in the Quran. And I have to say, from a purely logical perspective, it's hard to argue against their claims. It seems clear to me that this is a HUGE problem.

ISIS is the farthest thing from the Quran. Maybe you can enlighten us with their claims and how it's hard to argue against them.