Islamic Basics, part 1: Is the Quran perfect, timeless, and clear?

[Dawnofhope]

I have not met 1 Muslim who states the same you do.

Probably because I'm a Baha'i, not a Muslim.

How much of Sharia law works for today? There are reformers in Islam of course.

In the modern era, sharia-based criminal laws have been widely replaced by statutes inspired by European models. Judicial procedures and legal education in the Muslim world were likewise brought in line with European practice. While the constitutions of most Muslim-majority states contain references to sharia, its classical rules were largely retained only in personal status (family) laws. Legislative bodies which codified these laws sought to modernize them without abandoning their foundations in traditional jurisprudence. The Islamic revival of the late 20th century brought along calls by Islamist movements for full implementation of sharia, including reinstatement of hudud corporal punishments, such as stoning. In some cases, this resulted in traditionalist legal reform,while other countries witnessed juridical reinterpretation of sharia advocated by progressive reformers.

Sharia - Wikipedia

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree, that it's evil to be (and tell) so prejudiced. Sadly it's not only the Dutch Christians. Would be grate though, we only have 7 million Christians. A friend from Argentina told me "it's exactly the same over here in Argentina". So it seems the whole bunch of them Christians is wired the judging way.

To judge is just a Christian thing I guess. Understandable though. If you tell someone "Do NOT do this THEN they tend to Do just that". So now the Christians who judge can blame the Bible that they judge. So in a way they can blame Jesus, so even God. And then they can say "And Jesus died on the cross so we can continue judging".

You are right about the other fact though

I do judging too.
But my standards differ.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Bingo. (you answered your statement)



I do agree with you and I treat everyone on an individual basis, which is the reality of the matter. However, I've yet to find an Atheist (aside from a few non-theist Hindus) who isn't hostile to Islam on some level of the scale between opposing with indifference and wanting Muslims put in concentration camps. I'm still searching but in my few months in this place alone, still haven't found any (let alone in many other places on the net).

Hmm...depends what you mean by 'opposing with indifference'.
I have Muslim friends and co-workers, so I'm not so ham-fisted as to think of Islam as a faceless mob. But I'm not a fan of ANY religion that suggests walking away from it is apostasy. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me, though.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I do judging too.
But my standards differ.

Yup, same.
It's a point worth remembering an highlighting.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yup, same.
It's a point worth remembering an highlighting.

You Aussistanians are a judgmental lot.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

You Aussistanians are a judgmental lot.

Not sure we'd rate too high on the world scale, but my wife is quick to point out my flaws, so I suspect you are correct.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not sure we'd rate too high on the world scale, but my wife is quick to point out my flaws, so I suspect you are correct.

She's right, you know.
You have so many.

Mrs Revolt & I have an arrangement which is fair....
I don't point out her flaws,
& she points out mine.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

She's right, you know.
You have so many.

It's true. It's more her forgetting about my sparkling good qualities that gets to me sometimes.

Mrs Revolt & I have an arrangement which is fair....
I don't point out her flaws,
& she points out mine.

You guys are like the less-Australian version of me and my wife then.

 

[Firemorphic]

Hmm...depends what you mean by 'opposing with indifference'.

A kind of distaste but not overtly actively opposing. (as in those atheists that would say "no, I'm not to fond of Islam but I'm not to bothered what they believe if they're not hurting anyone")

I have Muslim friends and co-workers, so I'm not so ham-fisted as to think of Islam as a faceless mob.

That alone makes you a more intellectually respectable person, in my humble opinion.

But I'm not a fan of ANY religion that suggests walking away from it is apostasy. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me, though.

Nor me. Apostasy, like any negative-detractor, is a concept that goes against the spiritual stream of the religion. Of course, there are currents of normality and conformity, within many quote/unquote: "Islamically-based", cultures that make this an unfortunate reality. I think people that hold these notions of apostasy or heresy, don't have a deeper understanding of their own religion themselves (it goes both ways).

 

[exchemist]

Ah, the meaningless 'I' word rears its ugly head.

So today I suppose 'Islamophobia' means criticising Islam the way we would any other religion

Look at this poster's record of propagating pernicious Gatestone nonsense.

 

[exchemist]

The question stands or falls on its own merits. Either Muslims declare the Quran to be perfect, timeless and clear or they do not. Regardless of what you think of me, the question is not tricky.

What I notice in this thread so far, is that the only answers I've gotten are not clear.

As I thought, you are not "studying" anything.

 

[LuisDantas]

Look at this poster's record of propagating pernicious Gatestone nonsense.

He has a point, though.

It is very literally true that Islaam enjoys a degree of protection from criticism that nearly no other creed has or even expects. Even Scientology knows better.

The creation, diffusion and abuse of "Islamophoby" as a word to discourage criticism of Islaam is one of the best examples. It gives much needed challenge an appearance of illegitimacy and irrelevance - a quite undeserved one, more often than not.

 

[LuisDantas]

As I thought, you are not "studying" anything.

Now, this is a nasty, unnecessarily aggressive, and all-around destructive thing to say just like that.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not interested in the argument road myself,

That is quite apparent really.

And to a degree it is also understandable. Islaam is ultimately indefensable, despite the sincere hopes of so many.

it's fruitless and contradictory with my views towards other religions (which are of great appreciation) and non-religions as displayed in other threads. "my dad is better than your dad" competitions are not really my style, it's like watching an ant crawl across the desert.

(well making a distinction between argument over culture and theology/metaphysics.)



Those are my reasons for asking. You've got to realize that The Qur'an in all of it's splendor (or horror according to various others, I'm not gonna put words in other's mouths), even as the 'word of God' is still not usually the thing making the 'negotiations'. There are many extra-Qur'anic sources that make up many facets of doctrine and ideology. The Qur'an itself is anti-organized religion, for what it's worth.
Look at any terrorist ideology? Wahhabism for instance - dictated not by the Qur'an or Hadith by writings of Ibn Abd al-Wahhab, from that the Qur'an and Hadith become the dressing, the spank boy.
Good ole spiritual seekers over in Saudi, who wouldn't hurt a fly right? Wahhabis.
Do I have to go through Iran and Iraq and all them others? some governments take claim to all kinds of things (including old nice guy the USA) yet their actions are diametrically opposed.
With Hadith, what about those that scholars consider illegitimate and non-authoritative? why are they always the ones that people run to? and not the verified ones?
How many terrorists have come out of the Qur'an-only movement?
Society, culture, politics, you gotta step back at some point and ask what the heck is going on. Everyone who hasn't put in some effort into learning about the diverse thought and groups within "Islam" will obviously paint it over with a superficial monolithic point of view. If you want to call Islam an organized religion, then where is it organized? I don't see it. However, within the five pillars there is a tremendous harmony and unity that is at odds with these cultural constructs, take it or leave it.

Thanks for your intellectual honesty, which is truly impressive.

Ultimately, however, you are just exposing details of how and why Islaam is self-defeating under the best of circunstances.

 

[exchemist]

Now, this is a nasty, unnecessarily aggressive, and all-around destructive thing to say just like that.

It is perfectly necessary, and justified by this poster's history.

 

[LuisDantas]

It is perfectly necessary, and justified by this poster's history.

I fully expect that at some moment in the future you will reconsider.

 

[icehorse]

As I thought, you are not "studying" anything.

Let me direct you to a current, somewhat parallel thread. Specifically, take a look at my post #37.

If your claim is that I'm not sitting at the feet of Imams, trying to memorize their theories, you'd be somewhat correct. (Not entirely, but somewhat.)

I'm an editor and a teacher and I apply a lot of research into cutting edge cognitive science in my work. The Quran is a book that people learn from. I have studied this book from a cognitive science perspective, and it's based on these studies that I draw my conclusions.

Muhammad protected Jews

 

[Ponder This]

As a non-Muslim studying Islam, I'm told that Muslims claim that the Quran is perfect, timeless, and clear.

Is this a correct understanding?

(Note: In a parallel thread I'm going to ask about Muhammad.)

I would say that unless you speak Arabic, then no matter how perfect and timeless the Quran is, it won't be clear.

Let's examine this rhetorically:

1. Ethos: Islamic scholars point out the credibility of Muhammad in terms of who he was before he became a prophet. The modern lens often takes a different view of his life subsequent to his revelation.
2. Pathos: the Quran has an emotional appeal.
3. Logos: the Quran gives reasons. Of course, some people are not happy with those reasons.
4. Kairos: the timing for the Quran was perfect for circumstances at the time of Muhammad. Such a revelation would not have been as successful had it occurred in another time and place (it is evident that it was highly successful). The revelation doesn't fit current times so well. We are dealing with many different issues today than people were dealing with then and there.
5. Topos: If you aren't part of that cultural group, don't speak Arabic, etc. The topos is a straight up failure for anyone outside of that group because it does not take the form of a person's native language.

So it should be clear that the Quran is powerful rhetorically, but is obviously not universal to all people, times, and places. The Quran itself points out that revelations come in the right time and place for all the various peoples of the world. So it admits to being a revelation taking place at a certain time and in a certain place. And it confirms that various revelations have taken place for various people all over the world at various times. I think that this is an essential understanding for any revelation that we examine.

 

[icehorse]

I would say that unless you speak Arabic, then no matter how perfect and timeless the Quran is, it won't be clear.

This, and the rest of your post, simply reinforce the message I linked to above. All the scholarship in the world doesn't impact the book's impact on people from a cognitive science perspective. Your mind is mostly not in charge of your brain.

 

[LuisDantas]

The Quran itself points out that revelations come in the right time and place for all the various peoples of the world.

In the very limited sense that it acknowledges the revelations from the Torah and the Gospels as genuine yet ill-preserved, sure.

But it also claims that Muhammad is the "seal of the Prophets", implying that no further revelations are to ever come (33:40).

So it admits to being a revelation taking place at a certain time and in a certain place. And it confirms that various revelations have taken place for various people all over the world at various times. I think that this is an essential understanding for any revelation that we examine.

Somehow I don't think that this understanding is very compatible with Islaam.