Islamic Basics, part 1: Is the Quran perfect, timeless, and clear?

[Revoltingest]

Why? I do....to an extent.

Well...trust, but verify.
I was wrong about something once last year.
(And by "once", I mean per hour.)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

With JW's @Hockeycowboy is a good, respectable person. With some other JW's, a lot of arrogance.

Thanks for the kind words! We are trained @ our meetings to be tactful while discussing others’ beliefs, but it’s difficult to do so without appearing to attack the person. Keeping in mind Colossians 4:6 and Proverbs 15:1 helps me.

Again, thank you.

 

[exchemist]

As a non-Muslim studying Islam, I'm told that Muslims claim that the Quran is perfect, timeless, and clear.

Is this a correct understanding?

(Note: In a parallel thread I'm going to ask about Muhammad.)

What rubbish. I simply do not believe you are studying Islam with any degree of seriousness. You have been a relentless promoter of Islamophobia on this forum ever since I joined it. The only "study" you are going to do is some sort of tendentious exercise in finding pretexts for hating it and muslims.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

What rubbish. I simply do not believe you are studying Islam with any degree of seriousness. You have been a relentless promoter of Islamophobia on this forum ever since I joined it.

Ah, the meaningless 'I' word rears its ugly head.

So today I suppose 'Islamophobia' means criticising Islam the way we would any other religion

 

[Cooky]

Ah, the meaningless 'I' word rears its ugly head.

So today I suppose 'Islamophobia' means criticising Islam the way we would any other religion

People always rag on my religion... Nobody ever protects Catholicism but with Islam, people do all the time. I just don't understand.

 

[Firemorphic]

Hard to give a serious answer to all these hilarious Islam threads lately but:

Study it in depth, not superficially. Don't hold onto any biases, think for yourself, use your brain and read it with an inner focus - you'll find out soon enough. Anything other suggestion is catering to Atheist or Muslim bias (atheists are probably worse though because they don't want to try to understand, whereas Muslims are often afraid to go deeper than what they perceive to be the accepted understanding)


Else what do you expect the answer to be:

Atheist "no"
Muslim "yes"
Christian "no"
Hindu "no"
Baha'i "yess....um, not now, no"
Sikh "yes, in it's own way"

 

[LuisDantas]

People always rag on my religion... Nobody ever protects Catholicism but with Islam, people do all the time. I just don't understand.

I somewhat understand.

The criticism of Islaam is sometimes rather fierce, direct and condemnatory to extents that we really don't often see these days - certainly not in criticism of doctrines comparably popular (such as Catholicism), of which there aren't too many. There are, after all, over a billion living Muslims.

The natural reflex is to conclude that those criticisms must be serious biased, dishonest, or just plain unfair.

It helps that so few non-Muslims have a working understanding of Muslim doctrine.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hard to give a serious answer to all these hilarious Islam threads lately but:

Study it in depth, not superficially. Don't hold onto any biases, think for yourself, use your brain and read it with an inner focus - you'll find out soon enough. Anything other suggestion is catering to Atheist or Muslim bias (atheists are probably worse though because they don't want to try to understand, whereas Muslims are often afraid to go deeper than what they perceive to be the accepted understanding)

You are being unfair to atheism and atheists above. I can't say that I am surprised, but I might as well point that out.

Else what do you expect the answer to be:

Atheist "no"
Muslim "yes"
Christian "no"
Hindu "no"
Baha'i "yess....um, not now, no"
Sikh "yes, in it's own way"

Nuance is a good and proper thing. In practice, those answers would not be nearly as uniform as you say, nor should they.

Come to think of it, you seem to be demanding us all to act according to uninformed stereotypes. I just don't see how that could be a good thing for anyone.

 

[Firemorphic]

You are being unfair to atheism and atheists above. I can't say that I am surprised, but I might as well point that out.

One can only speak from regular experience as someone not sheltered to opposing opinions.

Nuance is a good and proper thing. In practice, those answers would not be nearly as uniform as you say, nor should they.

Come to think of it, you seem to be demanding us all to act according to uninformed stereotypes. I just don't see how that could be a good thing for anyone.

Don't know how you got there (projecting are we? lol) when my point was that any group you ask will have a definite position to ask, this whole thread fruitless by nature.

 

[LuisDantas]

One can only speak from regular experience.

My point exactly. Here is hoping for you.

Don't know how you got there (projecting are we? lol) when my point was that any group you ask will have a definite position to ask, this whole thread fruitless by nature.

What you seem to mean is that you are indeed embracing stereotypes over nuance.

I am actually not sure of what you mean by "projecting". I guess that I did use to project into Muslims generally an awareness and appreciation for nuance of belief that I have later learned to be innacurate; Islaam does indeed teach against those values, sometimes to a rather shocking extent. Nor is it a distortion. The Qur'an is plenty clear enough in those respects.

Thanks for illustrating my reasons for changing stances towards Islaam a few years back.

 

[Firemorphic]

What you seem to mean is that you are indeed embracing stereotypes over nuance.

Name an atheist that believes the Qur'an is the word of God and I'll show you a flying cow.

Thanks for illustrating my reasons for changing stances towards Islaam a few years back.

My stances towards Izlaaaaaam changed a lot too from being an anti-religion atheist, what's your point? people change, people learn stuff, people grow, people evolve. Of course, you'll interpret everything I say here as being aimed towards some kind of Islamic superiority as you keep "illustrating". "my dad is better than your dad" and all that dried out crap.

 

[icehorse]

What rubbish. I simply do not believe you are studying Islam with any degree of seriousness. You have been a relentless promoter of Islamophobia on this forum ever since I joined it. The only "study" you are going to do is some sort of tendentious exercise in finding pretexts for hating it and muslims.

The question stands or falls on its own merits. Either Muslims declare the Quran to be perfect, timeless and clear or they do not. Regardless of what you think of me, the question is not tricky.

What I notice in this thread so far, is that the only answers I've gotten are not clear.

 

[LuisDantas]

Name an atheist that believes the Qur'an is the word of God and I'll show you a flying cow.

You miss the point, hopefully in good faith.

While it is true that the Qur'an pretty much demands us atheists to oppose it, nevertheless it has a (regrettably small) amount of actual practical guidance that can and should be evaluated on its own merits.

It is not anyone's fault except the Qur'an's own that those merits are so few and age so badly.

And it is very much mainly Muslims' fault that such a state of things remains so unhealthily stagnated.

Christianity's own self-imposed challenge, admittedly not so difficult in some key aspects, was comparable and ended up being handled much better.

My stances towards Izlaaaaaam changed a lot too from being an anti-religion atheist, what's your point?

That I understand that people are sometimes shocked by my change, yet I have good reasons for it? I thought I was clear enough.

Feel free to expose your own reasons, or to encourage people to think that it was luck of the draw, or whatever suits you.

Just do not expect me to feel duty-bound to present my own change as unreasonable when it was not.

people change, people learn stuff, people grow, people evolve. Of course, you'll interpret everything I say here as being aimed towards some kind of Islamic superiority as you keep "illustrating". "my dad is better than your dad" and all that dried out crap.

I have to work with what I am given.

If you want people to reach a better conclusion, be my guest to give us better material to work with.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Name an atheist that believes the Qur'an is the word of God and I'll show you a flying cow.

*blinks*
I have no idea what this even means. An atheist can't think the Qu'ran is the word of God. It's a contradiction.

My stances towards Izlaaaaaam changed a lot too from being an anti-religion atheist, what's your point? people change, people learn stuff, people grow, people evolve. Of course, you'll interpret everything I say here as being aimed towards some kind of Islamic superiority as you keep "illustrating". "my dad is better than your dad" and all that dried out crap.

Any atheist (ex or otherwise) should realise how diverse the population beneath atheism's umbrella is. I wouldn't pretend to speak for 'atheism'. Those that do would seem deluded or political.

 

[Firemorphic]

An atheist can't think the Qu'ran is the word of God. It's a contradiction.]

Bingo. (you answered your statement)

Any atheist (ex or otherwise) should realise how diverse the population beneath atheism's umbrella is. I wouldn't pretend to speak for 'atheism'. Those that do would seem deluded or political.

I do agree with you and I treat everyone on an individual basis, which is the reality of the matter. However, I've yet to find an Atheist (aside from a few non-theist Hindus) who isn't hostile to Islam on some level of the scale between opposing with indifference and wanting Muslims put in concentration camps. I'm still searching but in my few months in this place alone, still haven't found any (let alone in many other places on the net).

 

[Firemorphic]

While it is true that the Qur'an pretty much demands us atheists to oppose it, nevertheless it has a (regrettably small) amount of actual practical guidance that can and should be evaluated on its own merits.

It is not anyone's fault except the Qur'an's own that those merits are so few and age so badly.

And it is very much mainly Muslims' fault that such a state of things remains so unhealthily stagnated.

Your opinions are your own and don't expect me to take them away from you. I have my own harsh criticisms towards areas of "Islamic culture" and even bigger criticisms towards "Islamic" Establishments and governments. I'd probably be even more aggressive in this area than those atheists who are less polite than you.

The Qur'an however is an entirely different kettle of fish. How many Hadith collections have you studied in your life? just wondering.



Peace out brother.

 

[LuisDantas]

Your opinions are your own and don't expect me to take them away from you.

I do not. If you had arguments, odds are that you would present them.

More to the point, plenty of people had the same opportunity to give me reasons to reconsider again, and they have consistently fallen short.

At this point, it would be a reaul surprise to have reason to reconsider.

A very welcome surprise, mind you. But an unlikely one all the same. And one has to deal with reality as it presents itself.

I have my own harsh criticisms towards areas of "Islamic culture" and even bigger criticisms towards "Islamic" Establishments and governments. I'd probably be even more aggressive in this area than those atheists who are less polite than you.

The Qur'an however is an entirely different kettle of fish. How many Hadith collections have you studied in your life? just wondering.

Peace out brother.

Peace.

Still, I do not have to tell you that the Hadith are inherently less trusted than the Qur'an, do I?

Surely you are aware of the endless claims that Hadith is used to undermine Qur'anic doctrine?

 

[Firemorphic]

I do not. If you had arguments, odds are that you would present them.

I'm not interested in the argument road myself, it's fruitless and contradictory with my views towards other religions (which are of great appreciation) and non-religions as displayed in other threads. "my dad is better than your dad" competitions are not really my style, it's like watching an ant crawl across the desert.

(well making a distinction between argument over culture and theology/metaphysics.)

Still, I do not have to tell you that the Hadith are inherently less trusted than the Qur'an, do I?

Surely you are aware of the endless claims that Hadith is used to undermine Qur'anic doctrine?

Those are my reasons for asking. You've got to realize that The Qur'an in all of it's splendor (or horror according to various others, I'm not gonna put words in other's mouths), even as the 'word of God' is still not usually the thing making the 'negotiations'. There are many extra-Qur'anic sources that make up many facets of doctrine and ideology. The Qur'an itself is anti-organized religion, for what it's worth.
Look at any terrorist ideology? Wahhabism for instance - dictated not by the Qur'an or Hadith by writings of Ibn Abd al-Wahhab, from that the Qur'an and Hadith become the dressing, the spank boy.
Good ole spiritual seekers over in Saudi, who wouldn't hurt a fly right? Wahhabis.
Do I have to go through Iran and Iraq and all them others? some governments take claim to all kinds of things (including old nice guy the USA) yet their actions are diametrically opposed.
With Hadith, what about those that scholars consider illegitimate and non-authoritative? why are they always the ones that people run to? and not the verified ones?
How many terrorists have come out of the Qur'an-only movement?
Society, culture, politics, you gotta step back at some point and ask what the heck is going on. Everyone who hasn't put in some effort into learning about the diverse thought and groups within "Islam" will obviously paint it over with a superficial monolithic point of view. If you want to call Islam an organized religion, then where is it organized? I don't see it. However, within the five pillars there is a tremendous harmony and unity that is at odds with these cultural constructs, take it or leave it.

 

[stvdv]

Some of the laws and teachings are no longer appropriate for our current age.

I have not met 1 Muslim who states the same you do.

 

[stvdv]

It's evil for them to be so prejudiced.
Tis typical of those cheese under the fingernails, below sea level
dwell'n, wooden shoe wear'n, bicycle ride'n, tulip breed'n Dutch.

I agree, that it's evil to be (and tell) so prejudiced. Sadly it's not only the Dutch Christians. Would be grate though, we only have 7 million Christians. A friend from Argentina told me "it's exactly the same over here in Argentina". So it seems the whole bunch of them Christians is wired the judging way.

To judge is just a Christian thing I guess. Understandable though. If you tell someone "Do NOT do this THEN they tend to Do just that". So now the Christians who judge can blame the Bible that they judge. So in a way they can blame Jesus, so even God. And then they can say "And Jesus died on the cross so we can continue judging".

You are right about the other fact though