Is there a war on Christianity in America's Left?

[Oeste]

Tsk tsk... You need to delve into a deeper understanding of the issue.

Conclusion: "On the basis of these two theological understandings (that God Himself had ordained the institution of civil government, and that God had explicitly authorized civil self-defense) the Founding Fathers and the majority of American Christians in that day believed that they were conducting themselves in a manner that was not in rebellion to God or the Scriptures."

The American Revolution: Was it an Act of Biblical Rebellion? - WallBuilders

I don't understand you at all. This is another appeal to "moral relativism"! You were arguing for God's objective morality just a few posts back, and now you've completely abandoned it here!!

You argued vehemently against "moral relativism" so It DOESN"T MATTER what the Founding Fathers or any American Christian believed was right back in the day. What matters is what GOD TOLD US IS RIGHT in scripture. That is GOD'S objective morality... what GOD reveals in scripture.

So when someone says "let's rebel against the authority" we don't go to Wallbuilders.com to see if it's okay, and we don't go to the Founding Fathers. We go to scripture! You claim to have 2 degrees in theology. Do you not understand the difference???

Once again you fail to provide any reasonable biblical basis for your moral relativism, and absolutely none as to why you switch back and forth from "objective morals" to "moral relativism" when its convenient.

Can you explain the scriptural basis for your reasoning? Right now you seem only able to convey your political perspective with any degree of clarity.

For instance, are political or revolutionary manifestos designed to circumvent Romans 13 only for Americans or is it universal, something that applies to all humanity? If I'm an Iranian, and my Government...the "Superior Authorities"...is terrorizing and oppressing my fellow citizens with the help and assistance of a foreign power, can I write a manifesto that states "God is with us" and overthrow the Government? What if the majority of my citizens agree with me? You made the same argument above, for "the Founding Fathers and the majority of American Christians" just a moment ago, didn't you? Does the prohibition in Romans 13 apply to Iranians but not Americans, or is this one of those cases where only "the ends justify the means"?

Perhaps our bibles tell us God prefers Democracies over Theocracies. If so, can you cite the verse and explain ancient Israel? Do you prefer Democracy, or do you wish to abandon it and establish a Christian Theocracy instead? Is this something God wants Christians to do, or has he told us to be patient and wait for Jesus to establish it instead? What if the John Ankerberg Show says this is something that needs to be established in America, right now? Is this supported in scripture, and if so where? Who will head your Theocracy and has God already approved its establishment prior to Jesus' arrival, notwithstanding Revelation or Romans 13?

I think you need to delve into a deeper understanding of the scriptures, and be ready to actually start answering a few questions clearly and consistently rather than ignoring or circumventing them.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Perhaps it's not normative to you, but it's certainly a legitimate title. And I certainly don't see why you would consider it OFFENSIVE in any way... unless you were just looking to be offended.

When someone goes out of their way to avoid calling me a Jew, it's no different than saying that I'm a Jew with a smug tone of voice.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Then it's also insulting to call someone a Catholic or Baptist.

I think you are deliberately obfuscating, which means that we won't be talking further.

The fact that you can find bimbos who actually do this sort of thing doesn't surprise me.

The rules in other languages and cultures are different.

That's my final word to you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Oh, and SOMEHOW you AGAIN forgot to give an example of the left discriminating against Christians in America.

And with that piece of disinformation, our discussion is over.

 

[Faithofchristian]

We understand just fine that all of you guys use that
as a way to claim your chosen reading of scrip is
infallible.

It is also how you guys use "discrenment" as a
no-study shortcut to knowing more than any scientist
on earth.

What a deal, top expert in god and science, at no
cost in, like, actual study and brain power.

So you claim to understand spiritual discernment is

Then use your spiritual discernment,
For Christ Jesus foretold what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is
And when it will happen
And who can commit it
Then go to the book of Mark 13 and show in what verse Christ Jesus foretold this in

 

[QuestioningMind]

When someone goes out of their way to avoid calling me a Jew, it's no different than saying that I'm a Jew with a smug tone of voice.

Again, if you CHOOSE to be easily offended, that's entirely up to you. But you are assuming facts not in evidence. You have absolutely no way of knowing if such a person was INTENDING to 'avoid calling you a Jew'. It's really not anyone else's fault if you decide you want to be so thin skinned about it.

 

[QuestioningMind]

And with that piece of disinformation, our discussion is over.

Oh please DO point out my 'disinformation'. We've discussed the American media's failure to adequately cover news outside of the US. But I'm still waiting to hear how you think that the left in American discriminates against Christians. If you realize that you misspoke and such discrimination doesn't actually exist, that's fine. But it's rather childish and pathetic for you to pretend like I've presented some sort of disinformation.

So please, act like a mature adult and provide an example of what you believe is the left discriminating against Christians in America.

 

[Faithofchristian]

No, what's quite obvious is that when anyone challenges your half formed vague claims, you resort to personal attacks and ambiguous Bible phrases.

Read what you posted, then ask yourself Who's attacking Who

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I was not referring only to religions, and muslims get their portion
if not necessarily their share, not just to the US but worldwide.

There is certainly descrimination against Islam in some places, I will grant you that.
However
1. Islam has a huge swath of countries that are Muslim. While Europe used to be Christian in this way, that is simply no longer true, it is now secular.
2. You DO have the left wing of politics that have a special place in their hearts for Islam. I've made a special point about the Media. For example, when someone chooses the term "terrorists" instead of "Muslim extremists" that is a choice that protects Islam.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think you misunderstood my original claim. My claim was not that the majority of Christians are fundamentalists. My claim was that the majority of fundamentalists in this country are Christians.

Oooooh. ok.

So what is the significance of that???? It's not like all fundies are alike. You don't have traddy nuns with explosive vests running onto buses yelling, "Hail Mary full of grace!" before they detonate.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Why do you think that the terrorists picked on Easter worshippers?

I think they picked on Christians because they hate Christians, and they chose Easter to do it on because they knew they would kill more people.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It hardly makes any sense to complain that "the Left" is persecuting Christianity, let alone to talk of "hatred".

Hatred between religions, and hatred OF religion has been growing steeply for some time now. It's a complicated matter. This thread hits on just one element. I could have, for example, started a thread on the rise of anti-Semitism.

 

[Left Coast]

Oooooh. ok.

So what is the significance of that???? It's not like all fundies are alike. You don't have traddy nuns with explosive vests running onto buses yelling, "Hail Mary full of grace!" before they detonate.

We were talking about why American progressives don't spend more time criticizing Jewish or Islamic fundamentalists. My response was that they criticize Christian fundamentalists more often because we have more of them in this country.

Moreover, the average American is far more likely to be impacted by Christian fundamentalist influence over law (regarding abortion, LGBT rights, etc.) than they are to be killed by a Muslim terrorist.
​

Given your recent thread on the Poway synagogue shooting, I'm surprised that here you seem to be downplaying the religious motivations of Christian fundamentalists who commit acts of violence/terrorism.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hatred between religions, and hatred OF religion has been growing steeply for some time now. It's a complicated matter. This thread hits on just one element. I could have, for example, started a thread on the rise of anti-Semitism.

I think it is a lot less complicated than you make it appear... and less widespread as well.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I wasn't aware of that, so thanks for the heads-up.

No problems. The funny thing is, I always thought it was a mobile thing. But if I turn my phone to landscape, I can see it. Not sure if that depends on the particular phone or not.

 

[Oeste]

I think you are deliberately obfuscating,

Nah, I'm deliberately calling out your faux outrage. BTW, when can I see that thread you promised regarding the Trump's outrageous reference to "Passover worshipers" and the Times of Israel's insulting reference to "Synagogue worshipers"?

Some folks want to be offended and other need to sow division. It's as simple as that.

which means that we won't be talking further.

I'm not sure about the "we".

Whether you talk to me is totally up to you, but whether I decide to address your assertions is up to me. If I see something I disagree with, I'll respond to it, but you're free to withdraw from responding to my posts if you like.

Please do not take my posts personally. I am attacking a premise or assertion, not you.

The fact that you can find bimbos who actually do this sort of thing doesn't surprise me.

Well then please be a bit more consistent and show us where you've expressed similar moral outrage at the Times of Israel and the Trump administration. After all, if the term "Easter" worshipers deserves condemnation then your self-labelled 'bimbos' in the Trump Administration and Times of Israel deserves likewise for their use of "Passover" and "Synagogue" worshipers.

In fact, I have even more "bimbos" you can vent your frustration at. All you need do is start a thread on whether there is a war on Judaism by America's Right and the Times of Israel.

The truth of the matter, IMO, is that the term "Easter" is PREFERABLE to "Christian" worshipers in this instance because it brings the readers attention to the fact this vile attack occurred on the holiest day of the Christian calendar. It's something a more generic term like "Christian" worshipers would not convey.

In other words, it's the argument you would now be making if Obama had sent out Trump's tweet and if Trump had sent out Obama's. It's certainly not an argument I see America's Left making, because politicizing such a tragic event this particular way is not an idea anyone on the Left has cared to make and we are at least a week out from the attack.

When you see apolitical, moderate and left leaning Catholics and Protestants churches "first out of the box" to rail against the President for sending out tweets that failed to mention these were Christian or Easter worshipers, and then casting dispersion on all of America's Right as a result, please let us know.

The rules in other languages and cultures are different.

Yes, rules and languages are different, but the rule of fair play are rather consistent.

I don't mind you saying you're offended by something. I get offended by things too. My problem is when you try to project this offense in a blatantly biased manner to malign millions of other Christians whose only sin appears to be that they disagree with you politically. Be consistent with your arguments @IndigoChild5559, but equally important be consistent as you mete out your outrage. There's enough to go around.

My perspective has always been that there is one body to Christ. It has many members, but there are no political or ethnic "parts". The terms Christian "Left" and Christian "Right" are political and not biblical terms. Since the body always works in harmony at the direction of the head, the idea of a "Left" side of Christ's body attacking his "Right" is spiritually ludicrous.A house divided cannot stand and Christ is still standing.

That's my final word to you.

You're perfectly welcome to disagree or be silent as I post but how and when you use your voice is up to you. I see you've done the same with @QuestioningMind. He makes a good argument and your response is disappointing.

 

[oldbadger]

I think they picked on Christians because they hate Christians, and they chose Easter to do it on because they knew they would kill more people.

Sure. And yes......
Hence the term 'Easter worshippers', I guess.

We need to stand up against all hatred everywhere, and we need to support Equality for opportunity, health, safety, security, freedom and a voice for all.

 

[Audie]

So you claim to understand spiritual discernment is

Then use your spiritual discernment,
For Christ Jesus foretold what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is
And when it will happen
And who can commit it
Then go to the book of Mark 13 and show in what verse Christ Jesus foretold this in

You dont even have the discernment to understand
the plain English of what I said.

Or more likely, the lack is of straightforward honesty
such as needed to actually face what i said.

 

[Audie]

There is certainly descrimination against Islam in some places, I will grant you that.
However
1. Islam has a huge swath of countries that are Muslim. While Europe used to be Christian in this way, that is simply no longer true, it is now secular.
2. You DO have the left wing of politics that have a special place in their hearts for Islam. I've made a special point about the Media. For example, when someone chooses the term "terrorists" instead of "Muslim extremists" that is a choice that protects Islam.

I dont have numbers for any of this.

As I recall, my observation is that everyone gets
discrimination or attacks because of who
they are.

And to me, "terrorists" auto defaults to
"Islam".

 

[sooda]

When someone goes out of their way to avoid calling me a Jew, it's no different than saying that I'm a Jew with a smug tone of voice.

Well that's awkward. Most of my neighbors are Jews.. We are in the same book club and meet for bridge. (I don't play Mahjong.) I see them nearly every day and they are sweet to me. I wouldn't insult them for all the tea in China.. What should I say?