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Is there a Heaven?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Pussyfoot Mouse, May 14, 2005.

  1. Pussyfoot Mouse

    Pussyfoot Mouse Super Mom

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    Is there really such a thing as Heaven? Adn do you really NEED to be baptised to get in? Can't you just have faith enough for God? I'm really not sure what the meaning of the holy water is.:help:
     
  2. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Staff Member Premium Member

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    IMO, Heaven is a metaphore or symbol for a state of mind. It has nothing really to do with an actual place. The same goes for Hell.
     
  3. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    The old monk sat by the side of the road. With his eyes closed, his legs crossed and his hands folded in his lap - in deep meditation, he sat.

    Suddenly his zazen was interrupted by the harsh and demanding voice of a samurai warrior. "Old man! I'm told that you know the secrets of this world and beyond. Teach me about heaven and hell!"

    At first, as though he had not heard, there was no perceptible response from the monk. But gradually he began to open his eyes, the faintest hint of a smile playing around the corners of his mouth as the samurai stood there, waiting impatiently, growing more and more agitated with each passing second.

    "You wish to know the secrets of heaven and hell?" replied the monk at last. "You who are so unkempt. You whose hands and feet are covered with dirt. You whose hair is uncombed, whose breath is foul, whose sword is all rusty and neglected. You who are ugly and whose mother dresses you funny. You would ask me of heaven and hell?"

    The samurai uttered a vile curse. He drew his sword and raised it high above his head. His face turned to crimson and the veins on his neck stood out in bold relief as he prepared to sever the monk's head from his shoulders.

    "That is hell," said the old monk gently, just as the sword began its descent. In that fraction of a second, the samurai was overcome with amazement, awe, compassion and love for this gentle being who had dared to risk his very life to give him such a teaching. He stopped his sword in mid-flight and his eyes filled with grateful tears.

    "And that," said the monk, "is heaven."

    -OR-

    A man, died and upon weighing the actions of his life, it was determined that he would to go to heaven. But before he went, he asked that he be allowed to see hell first. So he was led into hell and this is what he saw: row after row of dining tables, covered with the most exquisite of linens, place settings made of gold, crystal glasses, and the most delicious smelling, sumptuous of foods. And seated around the dinner tables were the residents of hell, their faces contorted in the deepest of frustration and anguish. Why would they suffer in a place such as this? The man looked closer and he saw. Tied permanently to each diner's hands were fantastically long forks - so long that while the diners could pick up the foods they chose, they could not get it to their mouths, no matter how hard they tried. And thus they were in a perpetual state of torment, being surrounded by lush, lavish foods and not being able to enjoy any of it.

    Then the man was led to heaven and beheld a similar sight: row after row of dining tables, covered with the most exquisite of linens, place settings made of gold, crystal glasses, and the most delicious smelling, sumptuous foods. And seated around the dinner tables were the residents of heaven, with the same fantastically long forks attached to their hands. These forks were so long that one would never be able to get the food to one's mouth. Yet their faces beamed with serenity as they enjoyed their eternal meal together. For instead of trying to feed themselves, they were feeding each other.
     
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  4. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I believe so, but I don't believe it is a physical place "in the clouds" or something, but God's majesty and his presence in the hearts of the just. Heaven, the Father's house, is the true homeland toward which we are heading and to which, already, we belong.
    Short answer: nope.
    Holy Water is water that is sanctified either by a liturgical blessing(by a Bishop or Priest), or by the individual blessing of some holy person. It is used for for expiatory and purificatory purposes.

    Here's a pretty good article about it: http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/water.html

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  5. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    I agree with the Stone on this matter. I assume you are asking on our opinions on the matter.

    There is no physical place such as Heaven (or Hell), it is merely a state of mind. All humans have their own interpretation of Heaven.

    Furthermore heaven is spoken of as the dwelling of God; so those that believe in Him will be with God in His place of dwelling whence they die.
     
  6. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    Not that I disagree with the Stone and you, but heaven could be a place (as well as hell). This very world, here and now, could be heaven (or hell) depending on how one chose to view it. And we could make this world, here and now, more heaven-like for others if we choose to. And we could make it more hell-like for others if we choose to.
     
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  7. ker krypter

    ker krypter Member

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    no. pussyfootmouse
     
  8. Unedited

    Unedited Active Member

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    My opinion? No, no, no, and what SOGFPP said.
     
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  9. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    You are correct lillith. This world itself could be heaven, not so much as a place, but as an experience. God Himself created us to experience life, and, depending how we experience it, make it our own personal heaven :)
     
  10. Ziroc

    Ziroc Member

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    If you believe that God is just, then you should believe in the existence of Heaven and Hell. Just means you get everyting for what you do. You have to able to accept the consequences. If person A does something bad to person B and person A dies before person A could get his/her punishment, then where else should person A get punished if not in the life-after-death-time in hell. This case also applies when person A gets an unconscionable punishment. Same reasons for the existence of heaven.
     
  11. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    There is a saying, and I know that it's a Muslim saying, tho I don't know how orthodox it is. It goes like this: God never laughs so loud as when He sees the expression on a man's face the first time he meets his murderer in heaven.

    I believe that God is love. There is always room for forgiveness, no matter how great the injustice done. Individual humans may not be able to find it in them to forgive a great hurt, but I believe that God can forgive anything. Therefore, no need for hell as a place of punishment. (Tho hell could exist as a "place" to come to terms with one's injustices.)
     
  12. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Lets not speak for God, but have God speak for Himself in His Holy Word (The Bible). Heavan does exist (I Thessalonians 4:14-18), (Psalms 23), (Ephesians 2:6, 4:10) and (John 14:1-4)to reference a few scriptural references that Heaven exists. Regarding the baptism issue, baptism is a symbolism of a rebirth, by immersing someone under water or through a sprinkling of water. This does not provide you entry into Heaven, because the Bible states that we must be "Baptized by the Spririt" which is through Christ Jesus.

    I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by Me (John 14:6). Some say the ordained Word of God, the Holy Bible is like looking in the mirror. Is there only one way to heaven? Is there a very narrow path into God's Kingdom? I guess the better question is "Who is Jesus" and what did he mean when He was sharing this message with his beloved disciples on this fateful day? Do you truly believe that the Holy Bible is the ordained Word of God, as written by men who followed Jesus and His ministry over a short span of 3 1/2 years and had a front row seat to the miracles and wonders He performed during His ministry? Even those Apostles that wrote the remaining susbsequent books to the initial four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) had direct access to people who had the privelige to see Jesus "first-hand" and up close and personal.

    Some people believe there is a broad, not narrow path into the Kingdom of God. If I go to church every Sunday, then I will merit entry into Heaven, correct? The good deeds I perform while I am on this earth will allow me to be welcomed into Heaven with open arms, right? Take the following passage from the Holy Bible into account when putting this issue into perspective: For by grace you are saved, through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9). Notice that we have underlined a few sections of this important passage in Ephesians to underscore the importance of God's message. Apparantly, we cannot get into heaven based upon our own merit, but only through God's grace and through the faith we have in His divine plan for our lives. You may question what God's will is for your life? I would be remissed in trying to deviate from His Word to give you an answer, so lets proceed to John 3:16, 17 for some elaboration. The passage reads as follows: For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. What are we selling you may ask? That's right, I am here to sell you something. But what I want to sell you will require nothing of a monetary value to be given in exchange. What we are offering is the free gift of life that God would like to bestow upon you. In the above reference scripture in the book of Ephesians, verse 8 ends in "It is the gift of God". God wants to change your life today, all you have to do is be receptive to His calling. If I am receptive to the message that God articulates in His Word, then what must I do to be saved? We find the answer to this question in, you guessed it, more scripture. Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". In addition, Romans 10: 9,10 tells us: If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.

    Jesus suffered a horrific death on the cross more than 2000 years ago, so that through His death and subsequent ressurection on the third day, we might be redeemed and saved. There is no magical feeling that will come over you or any lightning bolts from heaven that will reign down when you accept Christ in your life, but there will be a change. Remember Ephesians 8: 9 and 10? It is through faith you are saved, and that belief in your heart will transform your life dramatically. The path to salvation is through the following steps:

    1. <LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: black; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; tab-stops: list .5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1">Confession of sin <LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: black; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; tab-stops: list .5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1">Acknowledgement that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died for your sins and God raised Him from the dead with all power in His hand.
    2. Asking Jesus to come into your heart and believe in Him through faith:jiggy:
     
  13. Ziroc

    Ziroc Member

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    Never heard of that.

    That is true.
     
  14. Peace

    Peace Quran & Sunnah

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  15. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    As I said, I don't know how orthodox it is. But it was taught to me by a well respected Islamic religious studies professor and he identified it as a Muslim saying. I suspect that both he and the saying are Sufi. If you want to say that Sufis are not really Muslim, that's an argument that I am neither qualified nor interested in getting into.
     
  16. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    Jesus taught there was a heaven, why don't you believe him?

    define baptism


    trust is a better word

    how can water be holy?
     
  17. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" (Matthew 3:11).


    I wonder what I was baptised with then...
     
  18. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    my point exactly, John baptised with water as a sign for the repentance of sins, Jesus baptised with spirit and with fire.

    the baptism with water is a sign for the repentence

    baptism with the spirit gives you the holy spirit

    baptism by fire gives you a one way ticked to hell.

    would you not agree?
     
  19. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hi, Mouse!

    I definitely believe there is such a thing as Heaven. I also believe that, if you're going to trust Jesus' words on the matter, it's pretty evident that baptism is a requirement.

    Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

    From Matthew, we learn that Jesus himself was baptized for the simple reason that He knew it was the "right" thing to do. Had He neglected to be baptized, he would not have "fulfilled all righteousness." If it was a requirement for Him, how can possibly justify not receiving this ordinance ourselves.


    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    John, it appears to me, leaves little wiggle room as to the necessity for baptism. And I definitely don't buy that nonsense about being baptized of water as referring to one's physical birth (water being amniotic fluid). If that's what being "born of water" means, Jesus would have had no need to be baptized by John as He would have already received a baptism of water through His mother.

    I don't see the water, per se, as being "holy," but I believe the ordinance is. I believe it must be performed by one hold the authority to do so and it must be done in the correct matter.

    Kathryn
     
  20. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    The righteous of all nations shall have a place in the Olam Haba, The World to Come...
     
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