Is there a Heaven?

[Malus 12:9]

my point exactly, John baptised with water as a sign for the repentance of sins,

I was less than a year old, what am I repenting?

And why are we baptised with water if that is the case? Why not be baptised
spiritually through a priest minus the water?

 

[stemann]

Read Howard's End, not the E. M. Forster version, the short story in Anthony Horowitz's 'More Horowitz Horror'. I can't find it on the internet but if i do I'll get a link or post the story here. It's a great depiction of the personal perspective of Heaven and Hell.

 

[michel]

I liked Lilithu's 'tales'; I believe that heaven exists - not in any physical place; I think that heaven is where there is nothing but a state of complete Love and peace.

 

[chuck010342]

I was less than a year old, what am I repenting?

And why are we baptised with water if that is the case? Why not be baptised
spiritually through a priest minus the water?

infant baptims is ridiculous. water baptism is only a show of repentance nothing more.

 

[ayani]

the question of whether or not there was a heaven and whether or not i was getting in really bugged me as a kid.

i do believe that we continue to exist in some form after death, but i don't feel that religious conviction has anything much to do with it. something happens. something changes. how exactly, i don't know.

 

[Katzpur]

infant baptims is ridiculous.

Agreed.

water baptism is only a show of repentance nothing more.

So, Jesus needed to repent?

 

[chuck010342]

Agreed.


So, Jesus needed to repent?

Hey its a mormon, I never met one of you before nice to meet you


I'm so glad you asked me about Jesus showing repentance (an apologetic thing)

anyway on the answer
Remeber what John said to Jesus? "why do you come to me? It is I who should be baptised by you". Jesus said "do this for me we are to perform all rightousness" Jesus was not afraid to show that he was willing to go thru baptism. Jesus was showing the people that he was without sin. I doubt he needed it, John was considered a prophet by many it only makes sense that Jesus would do some act for the people.

 

[blueman]

Hi, Mouse!

I definitely believe there is such a thing as Heaven. I also believe that, if you're going to trust Jesus' words on the matter, it's pretty evident that baptism is a requirement.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

From Matthew, we learn that Jesus himself was baptized for the simple reason that He knew it was the "right" thing to do. Had He neglected to be baptized, he would not have "fulfilled all righteousness." If it was a requirement for Him, how can possibly justify not receiving this ordinance ourselves.


John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John, it appears to me, leaves little wiggle room as to the necessity for baptism. And I definitely don't buy that nonsense about being baptized of water as referring to one's physical birth (water being amniotic fluid). If that's what being "born of water" means, Jesus would have had no need to be baptized by John as He would have already received a baptism of water through His mother.

I don't see the water, per se, as being "holy," but I believe the ordinance is. I believe it must be performed by one hold the authority to do so and it must be done in the correct matter.

Kathryn

Baptism is a symbolism for repentence and spiritual renewal, not a requirement for salvation. The reason Jesus was baptized by John, was to symbolize that He identified Himself with sinful humanity and the fulfillment of righteousness would be facilitated by Jesus's incarnation as God in the flesh, His subsequent death through cruxifiction and His ressurection on the third day after His cruxifiction. Salvation is through the renewal of your Spirit (spiritual baptism) when you repent and accept Jesus Christ in your heart and believe through faith in what He did for you more than 2000 years ago. The process of baptism symbolizes that renewal and honors Christ for what He did for us and is an example of the "old man" being cleansed and the new man (life through Christ) taking center stage going forward. But it is not a prerequsite for salvation. In John 3:5, Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus when he asked How can a man be born again? Nicodemus was referring to the impossibility of re-entering his mother's womb and being physically born again. In verses 5 and 6, Jesus referred to a physical birth (of water) and a spiritual re-birth (salvation or born-again spiritually) cruxifying your natural spirit and accepting Christ's Holy Sprit through salvation. You would have to experience a physical birth and the process of maturation to be in a position to understand and accept the gift of salvation through faith. :jiggy:

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't believe in the pearly gates, streets of gold Heaven, but Summerland, which is somewhat like Heaven, but with noticable differences. Such as making your time thier doing what you enjoyed doing during your earth lives, and being able to have nice, pleasant life styles. And since Goddess is loving, all living creatures, no matter how evil thier earthly deeds were, go thier. If a person was evil, then before they get to Summerland, they re-experience every thing bad they did through thier victims eyes. This way they learn the pain they caused.

 

[blueman]

I don't believe in the pearly gates, streets of gold Heaven, but Summerland, which is somewhat like Heaven, but with noticable differences. Such as making your time thier doing what you enjoyed doing during your earth lives, and being able to have nice, pleasant life styles. And since Goddess is loving, all living creatures, no matter how evil thier earthly deeds were, go thier. If a person was evil, then before they get to Summerland, they re-experience every thing bad they did through thier victims eyes. This way they learn the pain they caused.

Luke Wolf, I respect that you have a belief system and can only hope that Summerland is the place you say it is and will offer you. I am putting my faith in Christ and have the peace of God, that surpasses all understanding. If you want to learn more, check out www.life-choice.net May God continue to bless and keep you.

 

[DrCash7]

I believe that God is love. There is always room for forgiveness, no matter how great the injustice done.

I agree with this. My only problem is that although we at times have room to forgive, but that doesn't change anything other than our future. We still meet our murderer in heaven. I would only wish that this could change--that we could say we meet our friend in heaven. When Jesus says to wash away our sins I hope it means that our sins are truly washed out and erased for good and not just merely not made reference to.:162:

 

[Malus 12:9]

We still meet our murderer in heaven

Possibly not. indirectly, it was the serpent that murdered us, not Adam.
I can't see us meeting evil cunning serpents in heaven.

Just thought I would throw that in.

 

[Katzpur]

Hey its a mormon, I never met one of you before nice to meet you

Hi, Chuck.

Yup, a real, live, bonafide Mormon! :jiggy: Nice to meet you, too.

I'm so glad you asked me about Jesus showing repentance (an apologetic thing)

anyway on the answer
Remeber what John said to Jesus? "why do you come to me? It is I who should be baptised by you". Jesus said "do this for me we are to perform all rightousness" Jesus was not afraid to show that he was willing to go thru baptism. Jesus was showing the people that he was without sin. I doubt he needed it, John was considered a prophet by many it only makes sense that Jesus would do some act for the people.

Hmmm. I'm confused. You originally said that water baptism is only a show of repentance and nothing more. But if Jesus was baptized, having no need of reptentance (as you pointed out), it obviously is something more. If its sole purpose was for redemption of one's sins, He could have simply passed on it. But since it is a sacred ordinance, He recognized that it was required of Him as well as of us. Had He failed to be baptized, there would have been one righteous act that was left undone. Because He chose to be baptized (even though He was sinless), He fulfilled His mission, down to the last righteous act required of Him by His Father. Are we saying the same thing, but in different words?

Kathryn

 

[Katzpur]

Baptism is a symbolism for repentence and spiritual renewal, not a requirement for salvation.

I'm sorry, but if it is impossible to enter the Kingdom of Heaven without baptism, I'd say it's pretty obviously a requirement for salvation.

The reason Jesus was baptized by John, was to symbolize that He identified Himself with sinful humanity and the fulfillment of righteousness would be facilitated by Jesus's incarnation as God in the flesh, His subsequent death through cruxifiction and His ressurection on the third day after His cruxifiction.

Where in the Bible does it state that this was the reason Jesus was baptized? As far as I know, He was baptized in order to "fulfill all righteousness" -- i.e. because His Father required it of Him.

Salvation is through the renewal of your Spirit (spiritual baptism) when you repent and accept Jesus Christ in your heart and believe through faith in what He did for you more than 2000 years ago. The process of baptism symbolizes that renewal and honors Christ for what He did for us and is an example of the "old man" being cleansed and the new man (life through Christ) taking center stage going forward. But it is not a prerequsite for salvation.

I believe that, at baptism (which must be preceded by faith in Jesus Christ and repentance), we enter into a covenant relationship with our Savior. We covenant with Him to keep His commandments and He covenants with us to offer us forgiveness and the chance to be reconciled to God.

In John 3:5, Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus when he asked How can a man be born again? Nicodemus was referring to the impossibility of re-entering his mother's womb and being physically born again. In verses 5 and 6, Jesus referred to a physical birth (of water) and a spiritual re-birth (salvation or born-again spiritually) cruxifying your natural spirit and accepting Christ's Holy Sprit through salvation.

So, if you think that baptism by water refers to one's physical birth, why do you think Jesus bothered to be baptized a second time by John? If He'd already been baptized by water once, why did He feel the need to be baptized by water a second time? Also, if you believe in the doctrine of the Original Sin, as I suspect you do (by the way, I don't), how can we simultaneously be born in sin at the same instant as we are born (i.e., in your opinion, "baptized of water")?

You would have to experience a physical birth and the process of maturation to be in a position to understand and accept the gift of salvation through faith. :jiggy:

I have and I do. By the way, in case you haven't heard, faith without works is only a dead faith anyway.

Regards,
Kathryn

 

[chuck010342]

Hmmm. I'm confused. You originally said that water baptism is only a show of repentance and nothing more. But if Jesus was baptized, having no need of reptentance (as you pointed out), it obviously is something more. If its sole purpose was for redemption of one's sins, He could have simply passed on it. But since it is a sacred ordinance, He recognized that it was required of Him as well as of us. Had He failed to be baptized, there would have been one righteous act that was left undone. Because He chose to be baptized (even though He was sinless), He fulfilled His mission, down to the last righteous act required of Him by His Father. Are we saying the same thing, but in different words?

Kathryn

Water Baptism is a public show of repentance. If you want to world to know your sins have been forgiven then go ahead and be baptized. Its a public show for the remission of Sin. Baptism by the Holy spirit however is a different thing. Jesus didn't have any sins to repent but he got baptised to show the people following him that he is a rightous man. You might say his baptism is one of his witnesses.

 

[blueman]

I'm sorry, but if it is impossible to enter the Kingdom of Heaven without baptism, I'd say it's pretty obviously a requirement for salvation.


Where in the Bible does it state that this was the reason Jesus was baptized? As far as I know, He was baptized in order to "fulfill all righteousness" -- i.e. because His Father required it of Him. The fufillment of righteousness was His incarnation (God in the flesh, His ministry while on earth as a physical man, His death through cruxifiction and His ressurection. That was God's will. Also, there are many verses in the Bible regarding salvation, and not many (if more than one) reinforce the need for a water baptism as a requirement for salvation.


I believe that, at baptism (which must be preceded by faith in Jesus Christ and repentance), we enter into a covenant relationship with our Savior. We covenant with Him to keep His commandments and He covenants with us to offer us forgiveness and the chance to be reconciled to God. A water baptism is a symbolism of repentence and the cruxifiction of the old person and resurrection of the new person in Christ. It is not a requirement for salvation. We do honor Christ through this ritual, but the spiritual baptism (accepting Christ through faith) is what provides salvation.


So, if you think that baptism by water refers to one's physical birth, why do you think Jesus bothered to be baptized a second time by John? If He'd already been baptized by water once, why did He feel the need to be baptized by water a second time? Also, if you believe in the doctrine of the Original Sin, as I suspect you do (by the way, I don't), how can we simultaneously be born in sin at the same instant as we are born (i.e., in your opinion, "baptized of water")? I've stated what the fulfillment of righteousness was based on, and it wasn't a water baptism, but more to do with His ministry, death and resurrection. That is what impacted people's lives, not His baptism with John. The context of Scripture I was referring to was in direct response to Nicodemus's question regarding being "born again".


I have and I do. By the way, in case you haven't heard, faith without works is only a dead faith anyway.

Regards,
Kathryn

I've responded to your "faith without works is dead" comment before, but you take it totally out of its context. We are not saved by our works, but through faith and grace (Ephesians 2:8,9). Faith without works is dead, but that has nothing to do with salvation. That has more to do with believing that God will meet every circumstance in your life and trusting in Him completely without leaning to your own understanding (Proverbs 3:5) or actions outside of the will of God. Christians will be judged and rewarded by their works through Christ while on earth, but works do not get us into heaven, faith in Christ and grace through God provide the gift of salvation. :jiggy:

 

[Katzpur]

I've responded to your "faith without works is dead" comment before, but you take it totally out of its context. We are not saved by our works, but through faith and grace (Ephesians 2:8,9). Faith without works is dead, but that has nothing to do with salvation. That has more to do with believing that God will meet every circumstance in your life and trusting in Him completely without leaning to your own understanding (Proverbs 3:5) or actions outside of the will of God. Christians will be judged and rewarded by their works through Christ while on earth, but works do not get us into heaven, faith in Christ and grace through God provide the gift of salvation. :jiggy:

I haven't taken anything out of context. Faith without works is dead! We cannot claim faith in Christ unless we are willing to show by our faithfulness to Christ that we are sincere. The two are intrinsically linked. Furthermore, I have never said (nor do I believe) that our works will get us into Heaven. If, by the word "salvation," you mean "redemption," then I agree with you 100%. All will receive this gift through the grace of Jesus Christ and by nothing they can do. If, however, you are using the word "salvation" as a synonym for "sanctification," then I disagree. The glory we attain to in the next life is, however, contingent upon our obedience to Christ's commandments in this life. There is no denying it.

Kathryn

 

[Katzpur]

Water Baptism is a public show of repentance. If you want to world to know your sins have been forgiven then go ahead and be baptized. Its a public show for the remission of Sin.

So are you saying that if a person was baptized by water in a private place without an "audience," his baptism would be meaningless?

 

[Pussyfoot Mouse]

So are you saying that if a person was baptized by water in a private place without an "audience," his baptism would be meaningless?

But wouldn't God, himself know? And isn't He all that matters?


I'm so confused.

 

[Katzpur]

But wouldn't God, himself know? And isn't He all that matters?


I'm so confused.

I'm not sure whether you're addressing your question to me or to Chuck. In my opinion, baptism is a saving ordinance required by God. So, yes, God would know, and yes, He's the only one whose opinion matters anyway. I know that when I got baptized, I didn't do it as a public display of my repentence or anything else. I did it to symbolize my relationship with my Savior and my obedience to God's will. While there were people there who witnessed it, their presence was entirely beside the point.