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Is the Concept of God Necessary To Explain Anything?

F

farfignewton

the man!
tomspug said:
Now I'm on topic. I disagree with that statement because I think that is a ludicrous generalization.
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Just a clarification... not my thoughts, those came from a good friend of mine, an athesist. We were, at the time, discusing political and religious views, and he was making a generalazation as a joke. No one can deny how many wars have been fought over religion or religious beliefs. Im not saying thats wrong, its good to sometimes fight for what you belive in, but to deny that religion has played a huge part in the history of war is ignorant.
 
rojse

rojse

RF Addict
Perhaps some of those with a religious persuasion could say what they believe the existence of God explains.
 
sandandfoam

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Jay said:
Two questions, stephen ...
  1. Do you view it as an immanent or a transcendent source?
  2. By labeling it 'God' rather than 'Source', what have you explained?
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Immanent - I think God is in everything. I can see although not understand God all around me.
I have difficulty conceiving transcendent, I'm working my way through this but a provisional answer (provisional because I'm strugling with the concept of transcendent) is that the world is a visible manifestation of God, there may be other manifestations that exist apart from the physical universe but to even attempt to conceive of this makes my brain hurt.
In terms of labelling 'it' God or Source I'm not sure what I have explained, if anything. Maybe it's because of my cultural context? in any case it was done unconsciously. Sorry I can't give a better answer. I have thought about it.
Your question raises a related matter that I'd like your opinion on:-
I think Freuds idea that language is the link between thought and consciousness may be relevant. I am conscious of God but I have difficulty with expressing or conceptualising that of which I am conscious, could it be that the words we use such as God or source are inadequate and our (my) problem with thinking of and understanding that of which I am aware is actually a language problem?
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I believe that immanence has problems with emergence and temporality, but that is a different thread.

As for your question, I suspect that there is no operational difference between saying "I am conscious of God" and saying "I am conscious of limits to my consciousness".
(BTW: Hofstadter's "Godel, Escher, Bach"" speaks eloquently about such self-reference.)​
There is a horizon to awareness leaving one with a sense that there is something more and a need to bring it into focus. God becomes, not an explanation, but a placeholder - something akin to Zen's empty bowl that the hungry too readily fill with the comfort food of 'revealed' religion.
 
F

farfignewton

the man!
Jay said:
I believe that immanence has problems with emergence and temporality, but that is a different thread.


As for your question, I suspect that there is no operational difference between saying "I am conscious of God" and saying "I am conscious of limits to my consciousness".
(BTW: Hofstadter's "Godel, Escher, Bach"" speaks eloquently about such self-reference.)​
There is a horizon to awareness leaving one with a sense that there is something more and a need to bring it into focus. God becomes, not an explanation, but a placeholder - something akin to Zen's empty bowl that the hungry too readily fill with the comfort food of 'revealed' religion.
Click to expand...

What, would you say, is the source (if any) of this longing?
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
farfignewton said:
What, would you say, is the source (if any) of this longing?
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I suspect that it's the intellectual vertigo experienced by a pattern-matching species incapable of resolving pattern. We are grasping ...

I wrote some time ago about an intriguing psych test that involved flashing playing cards onto a screen and having the observer characterize the each card. The frequency was such that the subject could comfortably keep up, but no more ...
Two of spades.
Seven of hearts.
Jack of spades.
Six of diamonds.
King of clubs ...
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Eventually, "illegal" cards are randomly introduced: perhaps a red five of clubs or a black eight of diamonds. Invariably, the subject coerces perception (and everything that flows from it) in an effort to make sense of what s/he's seeing. The red five of clubs is proclaimed a five of hearts, while the black eight of diamonds magically becomes the eight of spades.

We back-fill uncertainty with mythology. Pattern-matching is an evolved heuristic with obvious benefits. It is far better to 'see' the lion before we actually and unambiguously see the lion. If we're wrong, we're wrong, but at least we aren't dinner.
 
Scuba Pete

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
farfignewton said:
What, would you say, is the source (if any) of this longing?
Click to expand...
Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. NIV

Perhaps God designed us to match patterns: to use faith. Matching patterns is the basis of most faith and without it life would be maddeningly s-l-o-w.
 
tomspug

tomspug

Absorbant
I think the existence of God is necessary to explain why war and hatred exist.

The Bible teaches that the origin of sin was the desire to become like a god, to dominate, to rule, to control. These, to me, seem like the primary motivations of war.

So, without a god concept, man would have no concept of 'rule' and 'domination' and 'control'. The animal kingdom does not have these concepts. They came from an understanding of godhood. This is why the creation story includes the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eating the fruit made mankind aware of godhood, or evil, and thus became motivated by it.

If not from God, where did mankind get these ideas?
 
rocketman

rocketman

Out there...
tomspug said:
So, without a god concept, man would have no concept of 'rule' and 'domination' and 'control'. The animal kingdom does not have these concepts. They came from an understanding of godhood.
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Some would take issue with what you said there about animals. In any case, it wouldn't surprise me if God built in many of these interactions for our observation. In his word he tends to use his elements of his creation all the time as metaphor.
 
tomspug

tomspug

Absorbant
Ah, I see what you mean. But do animals do things for the same reasons as humans? Or is it merely for survival purposes? For example, large groups of animals have hierarchy, but it is a survival instinct. It has nothing to do with 'pride' or 'vanity'.
 
Yerda

Yerda

Veteran Member
Jay said:
We back-fill uncertainty with mythology. Pattern-matching is an evolved heuristic with obvious benefits. It is far better to 'see' the lion before we actually and unambiguously see the lion. If we're wrong, we're wrong, but at least we aren't dinner.
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I read a review for that book you often recommend (Atran, In God's We Trust) , and this paragraph made me think of it. I fancy that I might buy it. It better be good. :D
 
YmirGF

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Jay said:
I suspect that it's the intellectual vertigo experienced by a pattern-matching species incapable of resolving pattern. We are grasping ...
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Delicious comment, Jay. Methinks it be the "truth", but I suppose, as usual, it is still relative.

:biglaugh: :clap :biglaugh: :clap :biglaugh: :clap :biglaugh:​
 
R

Random

Well-Known Member
tomspug said:
You have a bad habit of not only disagreeing with people, but brushing off their arguments as somehow 'not worthy of discussing'. It's pretty rude.
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Get used to it. He won't change. ;) Nor will he get any warnings for repeatedly and deliberately insulting your intelligence, it's just what he does.
 
Scuba Pete

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Jay said:
And perhaps He designed us to be delusional.
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You have proven THAT to be true!
Jay said:
But, alas, both amount to little more than idle speculation ...
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It really doesn't matter whether we speculate what God has done, or that there is no God to do this. All is vanity and a chasing after the wind.

Ecclesiastes 3:9 What does the worker gain from his toil? 10 I have seen the burden God has laid on men. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. 12 I know that there is nothing better for men than to be happy and do good while they live. 13 That everyone may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all his toil—this is the gift of God. 14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him. 15 Whatever is has already been,
and what will be has been before;
and God will call the past to account. NIV
 
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