Is Scientology really that bad?

[leibowde84]

That's an awful practice.
But as I pointed out, evaluating a religion is meaningless in a vacuum.
Does it make the religion worse than those who wage wars, conduct
terrorism, systematically rape children, & inject theocracy into government?

Worse? No. Terrible on its own? Yes.

 

[Revoltingest]

Worse? No. Terrible on its own? Yes.

So we have a religion which is terrible.
That doesn't sound so terrible, since the bigger ones are worse.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Careful, a scientologist might see this thread and try to sue somebody.

 

[leibowde84]

So we have a religion which is terrible.
That doesn't sound so terrible, since the bigger ones are worse.

Fair enough.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Is Scientology really that bad?
Examining Scientology without the context of competing religions is meaningless.
Things to consider....
- Size
- Benefit & detriment to members
- Posed threats or advantages to others
Things to ignore....
- Goofy mythology & beliefs
- Scamminess (a common trait of the big successful ones)

It's small, it doesn't wage wars, it doesn't infect government, it doesn't wage terrorism.
Will it become a threat to larger society?
I don't think so.
(This is where goofy becomes relevant.)

It's already suspected they may have murderd some people.

http://pagesix.com/2016/12/20/leah-remini-thinks-wife-of-scientology-leader-is-dead/

http://listverse.com/2015/11/03/10-strange-deaths-connected-to-the-church-of-scientology/

 

[saraibyn]

How do you dispel myths about Scientology if you have not experienced being a Scientologist?

Here is a good resource to find out about Scientology, by people who have actually experienced it.... Ex Scientologist Message Board

The facts are out there for anyone who's willing to do research into the other side of the debate, as I've done, and I know people who are actual Scientologists. And as I said before, the testimony of apostates about New Religious Movements is not reliable.

Yeah, it is absolutely terrible. Breaks up families, basically steals money and leaves people bankrupt, spreads destructive lies to children, and tries to ruin the lives of those who want to leave the church. Say what you will about the Catholic Church, but Scientology takes it to another level.

No one in Scientology is forced to disconnect from their family members. It simply gives them the right to do so. As L. Ron Hubbard said:

Perhaps the most fundamental right of any being is the right to communicate. Without this freedom, other rights deteriorate. Communication, however, is a two-way flow. If one has the right to communication, the one must also have the right to not receive communication from another ... The term 'disconnection' is defined as a self-determined decision made by an individual that he is not going to be connected to another. ... With our tech of handle or disconnect, we are, in actual fact, doing nothing different that any society or group or marriage down through thousands of years. ... We cannot afford to deny Scientologists that basic freedom that is granted to everyone else: the right to choose whom one wishes to communicate with or not communicate with.

The practice of disconnection is present in many religions. For instance, I was a member of the Baha'i Faith for a time, and they have a law of shunning "Covenant Breakers." You should read this: A COMPARATIVE SUMMARY OF DISCONNECTION OR SHUNNING IN WORLD RELIGIONS.

It doesn't cost any money to just be a Scientologist. If you want books, lectures, and training courses, you're of course going to have to spend some money, as it is with any other religion, but this money goes to a good cause. The IRS recognizes the fact that the Church of Scientology is a non-profit, and they do extensive humanitarian work.

The "spreads destructive lies to children" can be used against basically against any religion. Just because someone is teaching children something you happen to disagree with does not mean it's destructive or a lie.

Anyone can leave Scientology if they want to. When people do leave Scientology, as it is with most NRM's, it generally goes unnoticed, because the great majority of people view their past experience as a positive one and don't try to make a big scene out of it for money and attention. "Contrary to public opinion, the overwhelming majority of defections from new religious movements are a matter of voluntary apostasy" (The Reliability of Apostate Testimony About New Religious Movements).

What religions?

LDS and Roman Catholicism enforces tithing, Islam has obligatory "zakat," and Baha'is have to pay 19% of their income to the highest governing body of their religion.

Actually, anyone currently in the church will be biased and unreliable. "Apostates" as you call them (which certainly makes it seem like you are being dishonest about not being associated with the "church")

Well what word would you prefer that I use? I am not sure how I can prove to you that I am not affiliated with the church. You seem to think that only a Scientologist can defend Scientology, which is a completely ridiculous idea. The story behind this post is that recently I spoke with a Scientologist who offered some arguments against the criticisms against their faith, and so I did some more research and looked into pro-Scientology websites and the arguments they present and the sources they give, and it has been pretty convincing for me. I am now considering Scientology and am looking to see what the anti-Scientology side thinks.

provide the best view into the harmful aspects of scientology.

The fact is they don't. Ex-members do not give us a reliable source of information regarding the character of any New Religious Movement, Scientology or otherwise.

And I am certainly NOT taking the word of a member of the religion with merely a BS degree saying otherwise.

Kliever had a PhD in Religion and Philosophy, and I have found no evidence that he was a Scientologist. He was simply asked by the CoS to conduct the study, which is understandable, as he was in his time a leading expert on all sorts of New Religious Movements. He was often sought for consultation by many regarding NRM's.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Careful, a scientologist might see this thread and try to sue somebody.

They probably have binoculars already trained on RF HQ across the street.

 

[leibowde84]

LDS and Roman Catholicism enforces tithing, Islam has obligatory "zakat," and Baha'is have to pay 19% of their income to the highest governing body of their religion.

I grew up Roman Catholic. I went to Catholic Grade School and a Jesuit High School. Never have I once witnessed any enforcement of tithing. Contributions to the Roman Catholic Church are 100% voluntary. You can get any sacrament you would like without providing a donation.

 

[saraibyn]

Then on what basis did they formerly (and perhaps still) charge members $20,000 for access to the story of Xenu? (I base that on an affidavit reproduced in the press.)

And, corresponding with that, why did they litigate so hard to stop it going public?

The Xenu story was (is?) available around the net in those days, and was later sent up on South Park─ or rather, simply told, since it sends itself up. Xenu, galactic ruler 75m years ago, dealt with the overpopulation of his domains by putting billions of his people in spaceships that looked like DC9s with rockets, shipped them to earth, blew them up with atom bombs and then needed to stop their souls from seeking revenge. So he caught the souls on electronic fly-paper, compressed them, brainwashed them by making them watch bad movies, and formed them into clusters which are still around as parasitic demons. Xenu is still alive but in captivity. And the reason people believe in god and Christ is because they were in the bad movies.

In what sense don't those Scientologists who've parted with the bucks to learn about Xenu not believe in him? What did they think they got for their money?

There's no such story in actual CoS scripture. The reason the church tried to take down the OT materials from the internet is because it was copyrighted material which was stolen and subsequently altered, which the people in question did not have permission to do. This kind of confidentiality is not unique to Scientology and is done to prevent the church materials from getting into the wrong hands and being distorted, as has happened. Religious books are not different from any other book - they can be copyrighted.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's already suspected they may have murderd some people.

http://pagesix.com/2016/12/20/leah-remini-thinks-wife-of-scientology-leader-is-dead/

http://listverse.com/2015/11/03/10-strange-deaths-connected-to-the-church-of-scientology/

I wouldn't be the least surprised at some element murdering others.
It seems a standard occurrence in religions around the globe.

 

[QuestioningMind]

It gets quite a lot of criticism, especially recently, since Leah Remini has been talking about it lately and receiving a lot of attention for it.

Why do people not like Scientology? Is it really as bad as people make it out to be?

Scientology is no better or worse than any other religion. What makes it such a target is that it is so obviously made up. It's founder created the religion on a bet.

 

[saraibyn]

Scientology is no better or worse than any other religion. What makes it such a target is that it is so obviously made up. It's founder created the religion on a bet.

Even Scientology critics discredit this fable. Why would Hubbard dedicate his life to winning a petty bar bet?

 

[Revoltingest]

Even Scientology critics discredit this fable. Why would Hubbard dedicate his life to winning a petty bar bet?

That's actually a pretty benign origin for a religion.
The others aren't any better.

 

[LuisDantas]

That's actually a pretty benign origin for a religion.
The others aren't any better.

That is a sweeping statement that will not hold to scrutinity.

I agree with the first part, though. It is not the origin that disqualifies Scientology.

 

[Willamena]

The IRS recognizes the fact that the Church of Scientology is a non-profit, and they do extensive humanitarian work.

Yes, they give people Assists.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The facts are out there for anyone who's willing to do research into the other side of the debate, as I've done, and I know people who are actual Scientologists. And as I said before, the testimony of apostates about New Religious Movements is not reliable.

Yeah...so who do you consider knows more about Scientology, a person like myself who has done some courses with Scientology and read and studied much of their literature, and you who claims to have never been a member?

So if you rule out the testimony of ex members, then precisely how did you do your research? If you were unaware that higher Operating Thetan courses introduce members to the Xenu character, then your research is pathetic.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Even Scientology critics discredit this fable. Why would Hubbard dedicate his life to winning a petty bar bet?

Let's see... he claimed that the best way to get rich was to create your own religion. He then went and made up a religion and guess what, he got rich! Sounds like a pretty good reason to me.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is a sweeping statement that will not hold to scrutinity.

Looking at the history of Xianity, Islam, Catholocism, Hinduism, & others,
I'd say scrutiny would show their greater evil compared to Scientology.
The wars, terrorism, rape, oppression, etc.....bad stuff on a large scale.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Let's see... he claimed that the best way to get rich was to create your own religion. He then went and made up a religion and guess what, he got rich! Sounds like a pretty good reason to me.

Then fled out to open sea, same as a pirate. AArrgggg........ Just try to get me maties!!!

 

[blü 2]

There's no such story in actual CoS scripture.

What does 'actual CoS scripture' mean? In the court cases it was alleged, and I can't recall it being denied, that the Xenu story was withheld from the general Scientology membership, and only made available as privileged special knowledge to those who put up the serious money. That would make it 'scripture', surely, with the extra sales buzz of being arcana?

The reason the church tried to take down the OT materials from the internet is because it was copyrighted material which was stolen and subsequently altered, which the people in question did not have permission to do.

I don't recall any allegation in any of the litigation that the Xenu document had been altered. I can't recall claims of inconsistency between the versions published by the various defendants either. Can you refer me to particulars of that claim? Altered how, exactly?