Is progressive revelation believable?

[firedragon]

It's only superficial, vague, general because you don't know the details of Baha'u'llah's writings, which you have to investigate for yourself.

How do you know if a person has or has not Bahaullah's writings?

 

[LuisDantas]

The major difference is that this is a divine model.




So why do you find Abrahamic monotheism unsuitable?

That is why. You have answered your own question - in advance, no less.

Divine entities can be useful if one takes the proper care, namely not taking them too seriously.

The Abrahamics, most notably Islaam, go out of their way to take them too seriously.

I am not interested in adhering to a model that I can see to have failed itself.

 

[Aupmanyav]

All of the revelations that have appeared in this world was about love and divine education.
You ether want the divine education or you don't.

We have enough of Divine Education through Hinduism and Buddha. No one can rovide any better than that.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yeah, what is yours is yours. What is ours is ours. I reply to Bahais only when they something about Hinduism or Krishna. Otherwise I would not bother about it.

Your hostility and acrid synicism concerning others who believe differently is obvious,

 

[shunyadragon]

We do not make a claim to anyone as Bahais do. Such claims are the problems. That is why Jews, Zoroastrians, Christians, Muslims (Sunni and Shia both), Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs, Ahmadiyyas and some Bahais too, live peacefully in India. This is because our Gods and Goddesses gave us a message for all times, the message of peace, brotherhood and co-existence, and not the message of ego.

Oh, ah . . . you have most definitely mad many exclusive claims concerning the nature of the beliefs of Hindus.

Again reflecting your one sided. view of the relationship of the religions and the Baha'i Faith.

So what?!?!?!? Jews, Zoroastrians, Christians, Muslims and others do not agree to your claim. They have messages which are sufficient for all ages. That is why they consider those that Hindus believe in are imposter, and their beliefs are false.

 

[shunyadragon]

We have enough of Divine Education through Hinduism and Buddha. No one can provide any better than that.

So, you do make exclusive claims concerning 'enough Divine Education through Hinduism and Buddha, and of course 'No one can provide any better than that.'

 

[oldbadger]

In the future it will be a whole different civilization. There will be no fanaticism in the baha'i faith.

I didn't mention fanaticism.
But how will it be a different civilisation?
How many sentences carry the death penalty in Baha'i?

 

[paarsurrey]

This is good for a sermon brother. I dont mean this in a disrespectful way but your statements are so superficial, vague, general and preaching.

You said all the revelations that have appeared, what do you mean? All the revelations ever appeared, like the Vedas, Smritis, book of the dead, Upanishads, Tipitaka, OT, NT, Quran, Book of levi, dasathir, Kithab al akdas, all the ahadith, the so called suhufi ibrahima, apocrypha, epistle of barnabas, gospel of barnabas, epistle of clement, etc etc etc? All the books ever seen in this world? What is your criteria which one is revelation and which one is not? What is the colour you are painting everything with?

"What is your criteria which one is revelation and which one is not? What is the colour you are painting everything with?"

It is a good question and pertinent question. Our friend @od19g6 , should concentrate on mentioning the criteria as requested by our friend @firedragon , please.
Did he mention it? I might have missed it,
Kindly give me the post number, please.

Regards

Regards

 

[firedragon]

So, you do make exclusive claims concerning 'enough Divine Education through Hinduism and Buddha, and of course 'No one can provide any better than that.'

What is "Divine Education"? Is it "Education of the Divine", "Education about the Divine" or "Independent investigation"?

 

[Vouthon]

We have enough of Divine Education through Hinduism and Buddha. No one can rovide any better than that.

Don't forget Mahavira! I'll always make a pitch for the Jains.

It is good that you are not in the position of imposing anything on other people otherwise you wanted the whole world to be ruled by a Bahai government.

I would go so far as to say this constitutes my primary area of disagreement with Baháʼí theology (and indeed with Judaism and Islam as well) - the divine law and theocracy side of things.

I see many moral and spiritual values, as well as mystical teachings, in Baha'i Writings which cohere with Christian ethics - much to praise and commend - but on this question of "law", I feel we are very far apart indeed.

Coming from a religious tradition that doesn't believe our 'God' wants humanity to enforce any "divinely revealed" positive legislation for the state / society or in terms of ritual purity / dietary rules / dress or indeed pretty much anything exterior for the individual, and which more importantly actually rejects "the works of [religious law]" as a means of salvation (because no 'external' legal system can, in our soteriology, effect moral reform of the 'inner man' - of the heart, but rather only the grace of God working through love).....I just find it difficult to believe that religious legalism, on the one hand, and religious libertanism from cultic law on the other, can be reconciled.

One religion holds as fundamental something the other religion categorically rejects.

In the New Testament, St. Paul writes: "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly” (Galatians 2.19-21). If we compare this with Baha'i teaching on divine law: “The supreme and most important happening in the human world, is the Manifestation of God and the descent of the law of God." (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace). Indeed Baha'u'llah had gone so far as to say, in the first page of the Kitab-i-Aqdas:

THE first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed...They whom God hath endued with insight will readily recognize that the precepts laid down by God constitute the highest means for the maintenance of order in the world and the security of its peoples. He that turneth away from them is accounted among the abject and foolish.
​

Well, Christians fail at the very first duty - so we must be accounted amongst those who have gone astray and are abject and foolish, because we hold no stock in divine "precepts laid down by God for the maintenance of order in the world", as I've been explaining.

Christian theology, while Abrahamic in derivation, is very different from Jewish, Islamic and Baháʼí theology when it comes to divine law (it's also the case that our doctrine of incarnation - that God can literally assume human form and has done so, within history, as Jesus Christ - is blasphemy of the highest order to Jews, Muslims and Baháʼís, as is our Trinitarian concept of divinity, that the one essence of God is possesessed consubstantially by three Divine Persons, again a radical departure from the Abrahamic norm. This offends the unitarian monotheism central to all the other Abrahamic creeds).

Because this rejection of religious positive law is so central to orthodox Christian dogma, it makes me seriously question, for myself, the schema of history presented by the OP: that each religion is but a dispensation in a linear chain of progressive, revelational enlightenment. I struggle to see how the Christian rupture with Judaism on "the law" evolves seamlessly into the Islamic and Baha'i fundamentality of divine law for societal norms, and don't think I've received a persuasive answer to that in this thread.

Rejection of the need, or salvific character, of divinely revealed positive law (outside the strictly ethical) is not a peripheral matter for orthodox Christians. It literally goes to the heart of the Faith.

Thus, I can't myself see how 'progressive revelation' as presented by our Baha'i friends would work in a Christian framework - on the level of my personal theology of history, although I very much respect that it's a beautiful and elegant concept believed by millions of Baháʼís.

 

[Vinayaka]

As one who practiced psychiatry for a few years I came to appreciate who adverse childhood experiences could have a profound effect for better or worse.

After a couple of years of chatting here, that is all some choose to see.

All the best.

Regards Tony

So merely disagreeing on the philosophy is seeing and claiming that the Baha'i faith is evil? That's how you see people who disagree? Hindus don't even believe in evil as a concept, unlike the Abrahamic faiths, so it's really quite the illogical jump, don't you think?

 

[shunyadragon]

What is "Divine Education"? Is it "Education of the Divine", "Education about the Divine" or "Independent investigation"?

In the Baha'i Faith it is."Education about the Divine" and "Independent investigation"

 

[firedragon]

In the Baha'i Faith it is."Education about the Divine" and "Independent investigation"

Oh i see. Thanks a lot.

 

[wandering peacefully]

It's the social teachings that changes from age to age. Things like calling for unity on a planetary level, letting us know that human beings are an ever advancing civilization, proclaiming that science and spirituality are in harmony, thing like those are messages that we need for this age.

I think with a little bit of true independent investigation you would quickly find these are all very old ideas put forth by others or already being attempted. There are no new social teachings in Baha'i theology. There are regressive ideas such as no women allowed in the highest positions of power, lack of allowing gays to become members, women praying in a certain way when on their periods, wearing ones hair in a certain way, dressing in certain ways, etc. Education available to all, global peace, equal rights, fair distribution of wealth are all humanist and other religion's goals. Baha'i is probably the most divisive of all religions as it is the most openly insulting of all other belief systems. I think if you were to read some history and current events other than Baha'i texts you yourself would be able to see this for yourself.

Btw, when you copy and paste the same answers to different posters, it makes the religion look like a cult. The same exact reponses repeated over and over looks like brainwashing to anyone outside of those cults.

 

[shmogie]

God alone is absolute truth, it's just that the teachings of God change from age to age according to the capacity of the people.



We their is a The criteria for a true Messenger of God:

What do they actually teach? Do they practice what they teach? What prophecies do they fulfill from the scriptures of old?

Another way you know a true Manifestation is that thay come with a new independent revelation and a new calendar, they speak of another that is going to come after them or a return, and if the one who is claiming to be a Prophet still working from an old revelation then they're not a true Manifestation. Another thing to ask is whether ther teachings is mainly based on hate, if they are than they're not a true Messenger.

Some people think that it's always Messengers, that come very often, but the fact is the Messengers are rare individuals that appears around about every 1000 years and that they're always from the east.

I would like to use the analogy of a mature and knowledgeable child and an actual educated adult teacher. While the mature and knowledgeable child may have a big impact on the other children and they feel like they want to follow him that child will still be limited in what he can do because he's still a child and he's not actually been educated. But the actual adult teacher actually have the education to teach the children. So the educated adult teacher will have a far more more impact than the mature and knowledgeable child.

A true prophet cannot call one who gave the ultimate knowledge of God, a liar. Christ never claimed to be a prophet, He claimed to be the Messiah, the Son of God, God. Everything He and His Apostles taught is right for all time, pertinent for all time, all one needs to know to be right with God. No further Revelation is required.

So, I must reject your ideas categorically. There is the genuine, and the counterfeit. The world is full of the counterfeit, but there is only one genuine. You have missed Him.

 

[Vinayaka]

Btw, when you copy and paste the same answers to different posters, it makes the religion look like a cult. The same exact reponses repeated over and over looks like brainwashing to anyone outside of those cults.

It really seems like a group of sock puppets to me. Now, it's a psychological study on the nature of brainwashing, fundamentalism, and cults. One wonders how individuals could possibly convert to it. In one case we know it was friendship evangelism, and that's a decent and understandable explanation. Being born into it is also rather understandable.

I must have a fairly decent grasp now as it's not difficult to predict the responses to non-Baha'is and who will upvote whom. I guess we're all just haters.

 

[od19g6]

Divine entities can be useful if one takes the proper care, namely not taking them too seriously.

Of course we should take the divine Messengers seriously. Not taking them seriously is the reason the world is so screwed up. It's like a class room of students that don't want to listen to the teacher.

The Abrahamics, most notably Islaam, go out of their way to take them too seriously.

Well islam is a revelation of old anyway. There is a new revelation for this time and age.

 

[od19g6]

We have enough of Divine Education through Hinduism and Buddha. No one can rovide any better than that.

Well If you say so.

But sometimes I wonder why hold on to a revelation of old when the prophecies from
that revelation has been fulfilled.

Hindu Prophecies

Hindu Time Prophecies

Buddhist Prophecies Fulfilled by Baha'u'llah

Prophecies of the Buddha

 

[od19g6]

But how will it be a different civilisation?

When a Manifestation appears in the world spiritual and creative energies are released into the world, even though the world in general doesn't know it's because of the advent of the new Manifestation.

You can see today that the age that we live in is different from the age that was say, 3000, 2000, 1000 years ago, so it will be in the future from the age we live in.

We are an ever advancing civilization. The world will progressive materially and spirituality. It won't be like it is today.

Baha'u'llah says:
'This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, 7 and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.
Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen'.

 

[od19g6]

"What is your criteria which one is revelation and which one is not? What is the colour you are painting everything with?"

It is a good question and pertinent question. Our friend @od19g6 , should concentrate on mentioning the criteria as requested by our friend @firedragon , please.
Did he mention it? I might have missed it,
Kindly give me the post number, please.

Regards

Regards

Well I did mention the criterias. It all comes down to the Manifestation.

What do they actually teach? Do they practice what they teach? What prophecies do they fulfill from the scriptures of old?