ninerbuff
godless wonder
Uh that's pretty sick. I gagged watching it.
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Is Pornography really degrading women?
- Thread starter Vendetta
- Start date
Darkness
Psychoanalyst/Marxist
This thread of become very long in the span of a week and a half, so I will just start addressing some general issues, since I am a feminist and have a profound interest in prostitution and pornography issues.
i. We have to admit that pornography encourages the viewer to denigrate the person who is the object of the viewer's lust. For instance, women are routinely referred to as "*******" and "sluts." In male gay pornography, we find the same basic functioning language. The main point being the language of "he/she has it coming." It is very violent/degrading language. What are the social effects of this kind of flowing meta-narrative in our culture.
ii. We must remember that pornographic actors and actresses are real people. Pornography is fundamentally the same as prostitution. The only difference being that pornography has a camera involved. Online porn sites are filled with videos of prostitutes-proper.
iii. Prostitutes, porn actors/actresses and strippers have high incidents of post-traumatic stress disorder (PSTD), dissociative disorders and child sexual abuse (Prostitution, Trafficking and Traumatic Stress). It kind of destroys the illusion that pornography is harmless fun. I am not saying that everyone who enters pornography has a problem, but it does change this to realise that the person you are getting off to might just be there because he/she was abused as a child.
iv. The argument that prostitution/pornography is the oldest profession and will always be around is vapid and weak. Murder and child sexual abuse has been around forever, yet we still seek to prosecute and prevent those incidents.
v. Marx's interpretation of monetary compensation makes more sense than the liberal theory of exchange. Marx posited that wage-labour enslaves us, because we are alienated from our product, and we no longer control what we make. We merely receive a wage for our labour. Without selling our labour power, we cannot survive and will die. Applying this to prostitution/pornography, the actors/actresses are exploited by their need for wages/survival. Evidence of this is the fact that in the Netherlands, the vast majority of prostitutes working in the red light district are lower-class immigrants. Is that true freedom of choice?
i. We have to admit that pornography encourages the viewer to denigrate the person who is the object of the viewer's lust. For instance, women are routinely referred to as "*******" and "sluts." In male gay pornography, we find the same basic functioning language. The main point being the language of "he/she has it coming." It is very violent/degrading language. What are the social effects of this kind of flowing meta-narrative in our culture.
ii. We must remember that pornographic actors and actresses are real people. Pornography is fundamentally the same as prostitution. The only difference being that pornography has a camera involved. Online porn sites are filled with videos of prostitutes-proper.
iii. Prostitutes, porn actors/actresses and strippers have high incidents of post-traumatic stress disorder (PSTD), dissociative disorders and child sexual abuse (Prostitution, Trafficking and Traumatic Stress). It kind of destroys the illusion that pornography is harmless fun. I am not saying that everyone who enters pornography has a problem, but it does change this to realise that the person you are getting off to might just be there because he/she was abused as a child.
iv. The argument that prostitution/pornography is the oldest profession and will always be around is vapid and weak. Murder and child sexual abuse has been around forever, yet we still seek to prosecute and prevent those incidents.
v. Marx's interpretation of monetary compensation makes more sense than the liberal theory of exchange. Marx posited that wage-labour enslaves us, because we are alienated from our product, and we no longer control what we make. We merely receive a wage for our labour. Without selling our labour power, we cannot survive and will die. Applying this to prostitution/pornography, the actors/actresses are exploited by their need for wages/survival. Evidence of this is the fact that in the Netherlands, the vast majority of prostitutes working in the red light district are lower-class immigrants. Is that true freedom of choice?
Vendetta
"Oscar the grouch"
Very nice analysis of the issue and that is the exact (or similar) position of a Dworkin-Mackinnon position. My biggest problem with your viewpoint is that there is a level of hypothetical assertion that the viewer immediately reduces the person as an object for their lust. Can you not take into account that the viewer whose fantasy is to have intercourse with an attractive woman may in fact place themselves in the position of the male actor performing the sexual act?
One thing about fantasies you must consider is that it exist in the realm of our minds. Fantasies save us from rejection and pain. Its a matter of self-preservation of the mind. In addition to that as was discussed here, if both parties enjoy performing how is it reduced to degradation? Personal choice has to account for something.
ninerbuff
godless wonder
Disagree. I am enamored with the female body and love watching natural boobs move during sex. I don't think that's denigrating. Not all people who view it are into denigration.
Well not really. Most actors/actresses have a say in who they deal with on screen. Whereas a street prostitute takes any john that offers money.
While this may be true, the average high earner also deals with stress management and other disorders that we deem as normal based on the job they may have. I have 2 friends who are millionaires and their solution to solving problems is to throw money at them. Wouldn't you say they are disordered for not dealing with the problems on a much better level?
But the difference is that there is ADULT consent. The other 2 don't usually involve consent.
Lol, in the US our congress and politicians are that way.
Primordial Annihilator
Well-Known Member
A feminist male...how droll.
Your problem is you take it too seriously...what these people are doing is acting.
Would you ban comedy because comedians take the **** out of people?
You fail to understand this fundamental premise about porn...and moreover not all porn of course is as you describe it.
What kind of social effects come from close minded self righteous moralising pray tell?
Pornography can be a healthy voyeristic release valve for many individuals who dont otherwise get much of a look in..
O dear...you see pornography is not real..'it is merely acting...do you get likewise confused by films and dramas?
A prostitute is not a porn actress...they are entirely different...and the risks are much greater for a prostitute in countries where prostitution is banned or underground.
Porn actors are not prostitutes and do not face the same threats as prostitutes..some feminist you are.
As for your last sentence...ahhh diddums you are breaking my heart!
No your arguments have been vapid and weak...if we suppress prostitution as we generally do we cannot regulate it properly...sadly its moralists like you that prevent millions of women around the world from being properly monitored and protected from exploitation and drug use...as long as they remain in the grip of the illegal pimps.
Do me a favour and tell a poor uneducated woman with children who can make some many from the foolishness of men by flashing her boobs and whatnot in a saucy mag..... your leftist tosh...
Vendetta
"Oscar the grouch"
Yeah I hear ya.....after I saw two girls 1 cup I will never buy chocolate soft serve ice cream again.....lol
Koldo
Outstanding Member
i. Hard to say. For all we know, men treated women that way since long before pornography. Pornography is an effect of what was happening in the society. It is like a product of society that somewhat helps to enforce ideals that exist. Anyway, it is hard to say how much the pornography really affects people, so to say, daily life in society ( instead of pornography itself) could be the major cause of what you notice.
ii. Not really, it has another major difference. Did you forget that parts are working? In prostitution only 1 person is working.
iii. More evidence for this argument is required to make it valid.
iv. Correct.
v. I don't get it. Many jobs are like this. If you wanna keep this argument up then you are going into a much bigger discussion.
ii. Not really, it has another major difference. Did you forget that parts are working? In prostitution only 1 person is working.
iii. More evidence for this argument is required to make it valid.
iv. Correct.
v. I don't get it. Many jobs are like this. If you wanna keep this argument up then you are going into a much bigger discussion.
Rakhel
Well-Known Member
Those two were more than willing. I could not watch it. My husband could, but not me.
But that was mild compared to some I've seen
Vendetta
"Oscar the grouch"
Wow that was mild??? Ewww I will never watch it. But my navy buddies are trying to get me to watch 1 guy 1 bottle lol
Rakhel
Well-Known Member
I don't know. I think any form of self-mutilation is wrong. (Some piercings I'm okay with, but others? *shudders*) But what those guys do to themselves, degrading? I'm sure. If they were forced to do it, the answer would be yes. If they did it because of some bet? Absolute stupidity, yes. Degrading, only if he didn't know it was going to be uploaded. But if they did it to themselves and uploaded the video themselves, the answer is no.
I suppose that is where the difference is. A willing participant, who enjoys being degraded and/or humiliated is not a victim. One who is forced or an unwilling participant to the humiliation/degradation is a victim.
I suppose that is where the difference is. A willing participant, who enjoys being degraded and/or humiliated is not a victim. One who is forced or an unwilling participant to the humiliation/degradation is a victim.
Vendetta
"Oscar the grouch"
Hmmm interesting
I tend to think this video competes with degradation lol
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?deskto...ture=youtube_gdata_player&v=Crjx44pVh0M&gl=US
I tend to think this video competes with degradation lol
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?deskto...ture=youtube_gdata_player&v=Crjx44pVh0M&gl=US
Darkness
Psychoanalyst/Marxist
To Vendetta: In general, just because you are placing yourself in the position of an actor/actress in the pornographic film does not mean there is no objectification involved. In fact, if objectification is explicitly or implicitly present in the narrative, a vicarious attitude towards the film probably intensifies, as it is not as detached in the mind of the voyeur. Fantasies are good and all, but we must never forget that real people are involved in the making of pornography. Personal choice is taken into account, but it is not the end of the discussion. For instance, it is a personal decision to stay in a relationship with an abuser, yet we recognise this as an unhealthy relational situation, and denounce it.
To Ninerbuff: Unless you can provide some evidence that higher earners experience post-traumatic stress disorder or some such, your point in moot. Believing that throwing money at all problems, while unhealthy, is in no way of the same magnitude as PSTD. Additionally, continually falling behind "adult consent" is a smokescreen. For instance, society violates adult consent on a continual basis. We force people to wear seatbelts. We even force people to buy car insurance. Where are the same advocates of pornography coming to the defence of these infringements on our adult consent.
To Primordial Annihilator: Your assertion that pornography is just acting is absurd. Your mocking people who have suffered from child sexual abuse makes you a *******. Not going to even waste my time on you. My time is just too valuable.
To Koldo: Prostitution and pornography are intertwined on a lower-level. That is, porn stars who show up to conventions are usually not involved in prostitution (though, all the porn stars Charlie Sheen has paid for, makes me a unsure of that validity); however, the lower-level "actors/actresses" involved in live sex shows, strippers etc. routinely alternate between pornography and prostitution. Sex work is intrinsically connected. If you want more evidence go read the book that I linked to. It's not terribly expensive, if a bit pricey. It is the single best source I have found on the topic. In relation to the Marxist approach, all I can say is being we cannot get rid of the capitalist wage-labour system, we should try to ameliorate its effects. That is, we cannot make everyone autonomous and not dependent on wage-labour, but we can eliminate some of the more harmful lines of work. That vast majority of prostitutes want out of the profession and a sizeable portion use drugs to cope with the sex acts involved. It is so unreasonable to assert that society should work to make sure no person has to resort to sex acts in order to survive under a wage-labour system?
To Ninerbuff: Unless you can provide some evidence that higher earners experience post-traumatic stress disorder or some such, your point in moot. Believing that throwing money at all problems, while unhealthy, is in no way of the same magnitude as PSTD. Additionally, continually falling behind "adult consent" is a smokescreen. For instance, society violates adult consent on a continual basis. We force people to wear seatbelts. We even force people to buy car insurance. Where are the same advocates of pornography coming to the defence of these infringements on our adult consent.
To Primordial Annihilator: Your assertion that pornography is just acting is absurd. Your mocking people who have suffered from child sexual abuse makes you a *******. Not going to even waste my time on you. My time is just too valuable.
To Koldo: Prostitution and pornography are intertwined on a lower-level. That is, porn stars who show up to conventions are usually not involved in prostitution (though, all the porn stars Charlie Sheen has paid for, makes me a unsure of that validity); however, the lower-level "actors/actresses" involved in live sex shows, strippers etc. routinely alternate between pornography and prostitution. Sex work is intrinsically connected. If you want more evidence go read the book that I linked to. It's not terribly expensive, if a bit pricey. It is the single best source I have found on the topic. In relation to the Marxist approach, all I can say is being we cannot get rid of the capitalist wage-labour system, we should try to ameliorate its effects. That is, we cannot make everyone autonomous and not dependent on wage-labour, but we can eliminate some of the more harmful lines of work. That vast majority of prostitutes want out of the profession and a sizeable portion use drugs to cope with the sex acts involved. It is so unreasonable to assert that society should work to make sure no person has to resort to sex acts in order to survive under a wage-labour system?
blackout
Violet.
The average job only concerns itself with the employee's ability to perform a particular task.
some jobs you must be able to stand on your feet for hours,
some jobs you must be able to lift and move heavy things all day,
some jobs you must be able to copy/type (nothing of personal interest)
for an 8 hour day,
some jobs you have to clean people's toilets, and dirty bed sheets.
And how do these things get done?
"People" throw money at them.
Who on earth would people do these repetitive one dimentional,
uninteresting, strenuous, and even demeaning/damaging tasks
of no personal interest,
day after day, if it weren't about money?
Do you think employers in general,
are concerned with the total person,
the deeper health, and well being
of the people they employ?
Any job that pays you for a service that you provide,
is a "legitimate" job.
Now whether or not most jobs are healthy for us,
physically, mentally, emotionally, even economically,
is a completely different question.
This is where each one of us has to personally
weigh our options. and choose one course, or another.
Employers only want the "dimentions" of you
that fit/accomplish their job description.
The rest of you, you must nurture and fulfill
heal, rejuvinate, and revitalize
on 'your own time'.
some jobs you must be able to stand on your feet for hours,
some jobs you must be able to lift and move heavy things all day,
some jobs you must be able to copy/type (nothing of personal interest)
for an 8 hour day,
some jobs you have to clean people's toilets, and dirty bed sheets.
And how do these things get done?
"People" throw money at them.
Who on earth would people do these repetitive one dimentional,
uninteresting, strenuous, and even demeaning/damaging tasks
of no personal interest,
day after day, if it weren't about money?
Do you think employers in general,
are concerned with the total person,
the deeper health, and well being
of the people they employ?
Any job that pays you for a service that you provide,
is a "legitimate" job.
Now whether or not most jobs are healthy for us,
physically, mentally, emotionally, even economically,
is a completely different question.
This is where each one of us has to personally
weigh our options. and choose one course, or another.
Employers only want the "dimentions" of you
that fit/accomplish their job description.
The rest of you, you must nurture and fulfill
heal, rejuvinate, and revitalize
on 'your own time'.
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