Is multi-culturalism dangerous?

[Treks]

I just read this article which was posted on another thread:

You are now entering Sharia law Britain: As Islamic extremists declare a Sharia law zone in a London suburb, there are worrying social and moral implications | Mail Online

It's about suburbs in Britain with large Muslim populations putting up signs like 'You are entering a shariah controlled zone' and turning those suburbs into 'Islamic emirates' (that's the plan, anyway).

Does this mean that wherever large groups of Muslims settle, they will usurp the local authority and institute their own laws? Do we see any other cultures or religious groups do this?

I read this article a few days after someone shared this doco with me:
[youtube]SgKMI1wV0ps[/youtube]
My Hometown Fanatics: Stacey Dooley Investigates (Muslim Extremists - EDL - Luton) - YouTube

I haven't watched it all yet - only a short clip. I want to watch it all to make sure I've got all the information.

Is it truly about fanatics as opposed to regular Muslims?

Apologies if I've caused any offence. I'm all for multiculturalism, I love variety and diversity. I live in a very multicultural suburb and I'd like to think I'm not racist or discriminatory. I just get a bit nervous when I see this sort of thing.

 

[Breathe]

Multiculturalism, when done right, is amazing.

Multiculturalism, when done badly, can cause a lot of hassle.

Unfortunately, Britain's ****-poor attempt at multiculturalism has caused way too many people to live in small enclaves where people don't like others, an us-vs-them mentality, clinging to ancient doctrines and nationalities. Thankfully, not always, but way too many.

And unfortunately, when people live in closed-off us-vs-them societies, frustration and hatred between groups can build and grow.

When the failures of this form of multiculturalism are ignored, or called racist and dismissed -- as it merely angers and alienates a lot of people who've encountered problems, and it encourages many people who've noticed the problems to support racist groups, because they feel ignored. This has happened with Britain for quite a while.

... And then, the UK government did a complete 180 turn and effectively blamed the immigrants and their descendants, alienating them and also making some natives think that the immigrants and their descendants are responsible.


As for the video, it's not that Muslim extremists are taking over the UK, but they are becoming more and more vocal. They're a tiny number of people, but they're given a lot of leeway (more than a lot of other groups would be if they did this crap) and are made out to be the representation of Muslims; they aren't.

There's many Muslims who do not want to live under shari'a; I expect that out of a majority of Muslims who do support shari'a, more than half would actually hate living in a shari'a state if they did; the idea is more appealing than it would actually be.

Sometimes, though, I see a elements of current, mainstream British 'culture', and I'd rather live under a shari'a controlled government. I can understand why some people would support it when they see the failures of modern Britain.


I don't know what we could do to undo the screw ups of previous British multiculturalism; I don't think we can... :sad:

 

[darkendless]

Multi-culturalism is problematic. Worldwide we see issues with it. Even in Sweden there are riots with immigrants. In Oz we've had our problems.

Ideology seems to be the major cause. Naive people expect others to accept all ideologies and cultures will simply "get along." There is ample evidence to suggest otherwise. It may just be western media but from what I have seen Islam seems to struggle the most to integrate yet on tv here in Oz all I ever see is high ranging muslims complain about how Australians are racist and don't do enough to help muslims integrate. Not helping the cause at all.

I don't think proper multi-culturalism is possible. We're humans and we're far too headstrong.

 

[Pastek]

It's about suburbs in Britain with large Muslim populations putting up signs like 'You are entering a shariah controlled zone' and turning those suburbs into 'Islamic emirates' (that's the plan, anyway).

Didn't saw yet the video.

First of all, i think UK has a different system.
For exemple in their country someone who is extremist has the right to be an Imam/Leader, they have the right to do kind of harsh demonstrations ect
(Correct me if i'm wrong, but that what i saw on tv)

It reminds me of the US. I saw a documentary once where racist people (from the KKK i think) were on the street yelling slogans about the white supremacy and things like that.
The Police was there, and black people were watching.

That's something that you will never see in France.

I think that US and UK have the same system : they let people express their hate towards other comunnities, while in other countries (like mine, France) they could be arrested for "hate incitation".
Of course that's because it's the right of free speech, but in countries it can be illegal when it express dangerous views.

Does this mean that wherever large groups of Muslims settle, they will usurp the local authority and institute their own laws? Do we see any other cultures or religious groups do this?

France is the european country with the most hight percentage of muslims, and you will never see that.

 

[Flankerl]

Multiculturalism leads to more multiculturalism.

Thats about everything it does. And it will never work in europe.

 

[apophenia]

As for the video, it's not that Muslim extremists are taking over the UK, but they are becoming more and more vocal. They're a tiny number of people, but they're given a lot of leeway (more than a lot of other groups would be if they did this crap) and are made out to be the representation of Muslims; they aren't.

A small percentage of 1.5 billion is a lot of people.

If the 'moderate' muslims don't find a way to control them, they effectively set a muslim agenda, whatever the quran or the moderates may say.

At the moment, the radicals are effectively the voice of Islam - the moderates ( most of 1.5 billion, so I am told ! ) are not finding a way to be heard. Can we keep blaming the media for that ? Is it really so easy to silence 1.5 billion people ?

If the radicals gain the kind of power they want, in the name of Islam, will the moderates act to change that ?

There's many Muslims who do not want to live under shari'a; I expect that out of a majority of Muslims who do support shari'a, more than half would actually hate living in a shari'a state if they did; the idea is more appealing than it would actually be.

"There's many muslims who do not want to live under shari'a".

Just many ?

That doesn't sound very encouraging Odion.

The question really is - will most reject it ?

And if not ? ( And seriously, do you think they will ?)

The answer is - if the moderates sit quietly, and/or accept the social actions of the radicals, the radicals have a lot of power and influence. It is also true that the 'moderates' can sit on their hands and say "Non mea culpa ! " while the radicals achieve their goals.

So far, I don't see the moderate muslims making a concerted effort to distance themselves from the 'radicals'. I see a lot of misguided loyalty - an attempt to save face for the Umma, even if that means not challenging the most militant radicals.

I read more rationalisations for the actions of radicals than I read outright condemnation, even here on RF. And if it is that way here on RF .... go figure.

I'm sure that if 1.5 billion people were very unhappy with 'a small percentage' of their own people, there would be no doubt about it.

I am not feeling or seeing the effects of 1.5 billion people protesting against muslim radicals. I am not reading any articles by muslims saying "leave the [British][American] [Australian] culture alone, they have a right to it".

Why is that ?

 

[Breathe]

A small percentage of 1.5 billion is a lot of people.

You're right.

Just many ?

That doesn't sound very encouraging Odion.

The question really is - will most reject it ?

I know, and I don't know.

And if not ? ( And seriously, do you think they will ?)

I don't know.

So far, I don't see the moderate muslims making a concerted effort to distance themselves from the 'radicals'. I see a lot of misguided loyalty - an attempt to save face for the Umma, even if that means not challenging the most militant radicals.

I see a lot of Muslims disagreeing with the actions of this number, but for many I think there is a lot of misguided loyalty.

 

[mycorrhiza]

Multi-culturalism is problematic. Worldwide we see issues with it. Even in Sweden there are riots with immigrants. In Oz we've had our problems.

Ideology seems to be the major cause. Naive people expect others to accept all ideologies and cultures will simply "get along." There is ample evidence to suggest otherwise. It may just be western media but from what I have seen Islam seems to struggle the most to integrate yet on tv here in Oz all I ever see is high ranging muslims complain about how Australians are racist and don't do enough to help muslims integrate. Not helping the cause at all.

I don't think proper multi-culturalism is possible. We're humans and we're far too headstrong.

The riots here are not due to immigration and multiculture, but rather due to poorly handled economy and housing politics, bad schools, less and less things to do in the suburbs and a culture of racism and violence within the police force. It's not a coincidence that the riots are happening in the poor parts of Sweden as it's a question of social class, not culture.

When it comes to culture, people get along just fine here.

 

[Breathe]

The riots here are not due to immigration and multiculture, but rather due to poorly handled economy and housing politics, bad schools, less and less things to do in the suburbs and a culture of racism and violence within the police force. It's not a coincidence that the riots are happening in the poor parts of Sweden as it's a question of social class, not culture.

When it comes to culture, people get along just fine here.

Bad schools? In Sweden?

 

[mycorrhiza]

Bad schools? In Sweden?

Yes, they're quite awful. The amount of people in each class is way too high, the teachers barely have time for actual teaching because of all the administrative work outside of the classroom, there's too little effort in helping students who need extra help, teachers have very little freedom and have to follow a very poorly made school plan, some teachers just don't know how to teach at all, many subjects (especially math) are approached from the wrong angle, tests are mostly written in class despite this being ineffective in actually teaching students anything, the universities educating teachers are bad and use outdated forms of pedagogy, the decisions made by politicians regarding schools are heavily opposed by most teacher's organisations, etc.

 

[Valjean]

The riots here are not due to immigration and multiculture, but rather due to poorly handled economy and housing politics, bad schools, less and less things to do in the suburbs and a culture of racism and violence within the police force. It's not a coincidence that the riots are happening in the poor parts of Sweden as it's a question of social class, not culture.

When it comes to culture, people get along just fine here.

The BBC reports that it's not just the poor and disadvantaged who are rioting, but a broad spectrum of young Swedes.

 

[Breathe]

Yes, they're quite awful. The amount of people in each class is way too high, the teachers barely have time for actual teaching because of all the administrative work outside of the classroom, there's too little effort in helping students who need extra help, teachers have very little freedom and have to follow a very poorly made school plan, some teachers just don't know how to teach at all, many subjects (especially math) are approached from the wrong angle, tests are mostly written in class despite this being ineffective in actually teaching students anything, the universities educating teachers are bad and teach outdated forms of pedagogy, the decisions made by politicians regarding schools are heavily opposed by most teacher's organisations, etc.

Seems like most of the problems come from politics; though there's a surprise eh?

 

[mycorrhiza]

The BBC reports that it's not just the poor and disadvantaged who are rioting, but a broad spectrum of young Swedes.

I don't see any rioting in the rich areas of Stockholm. From the reporting here in Sweden, what I see is that the rioters are mostly unemployed young males in the poor parts of Stockholm. That doesn't sound like a very broad spectrum. Could you link me to a BBC report that claims this?

 

[Kerr]

Multiculturalism isnt dangerous, its just harder to get working right. Having Sharia zones... that is a really, really bad idea in my opinion.

The riots here are not due to immigration and multiculture, but rather due to poorly handled economy and housing politics, bad schools, less and less things to do in the suburbs and a culture of racism and violence within the police force. It's not a coincidence that the riots are happening in the poor parts of Sweden as it's a question of social class, not culture.

When it comes to culture, people get along just fine here.

While I live in Sweden, I dont follow the news. During my quick research it seems the roits started after a man was killed by the police. Police brutality seems to be a major reason, but as I said, I dont follow the news so I could be wrong (and yes, I know I should follow the news ).

 

[Penumbra]

I'm okay with immigration, multi-culturalism, diversity, etc. At least in theory.

But I'm strongly against any sharia law and would not support it under any circumstances in any community that I have voting rights in. I'm okay with local communities making laws, as long as there is a higher national law that can override laws that go against the core principles of the country.

For example, the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees freedom of speech, religion, press, petition, and assembly, and also says the government can't make a law respecting the establishment of a religion. The Supreme Court has ruled that this applies to states and lower governments too, so it's meant to be absolute.

That law allows for multicultural expression because it makes the place reasonable for people of all religions or non-religions, but does not allow cultures to use religion in law. And it's enforceable down to the local level. I believe that's the right way to do it.

Similarly, it used to be the case that many states didn't allow interracial marriage. Some states allowed it, while others didn't. Then in 1967 the Supreme Court said that this violates the constitution, and so interracial marriage became legal in all states. It doesn't matter if the local population of a state is racist or not; they still have to allow interracial marriage.

Some states even kept laws against interracial marriage on their state laws. Alabama citizens, for example, finally voted in the year 2000 to overturn their law against interracial marriage. (40% were in favor of keeping it, though.) But it didn't matter because it's been invalidated for years by the higher, national law.

So I'm happy when areas are diverse, but I still think the most important laws should be governed by evidence and reason, upheld by the national laws, and enforced on all local communities, rather than allowing local customs (religion, culture, etc) to make important laws based on these reasons.

 

[Revoltingest]

I just read this article which was posted on another thread:

You are now entering Sharia law Britain: As Islamic extremists declare a Sharia law zone in a London suburb, there are worrying social and moral implications | Mail Online

It's about suburbs in Britain with large Muslim populations putting up signs like 'You are entering a shariah controlled zone' and turning those suburbs into 'Islamic emirates' (that's the plan, anyway).

Does this mean that wherever large groups of Muslims settle, they will usurp the local authority and institute their own laws? Do we see any other cultures or religious groups do this?

I read this article a few days after someone shared this doco with me:
[youtube]SgKMI1wV0ps[/youtube]
My Hometown Fanatics: Stacey Dooley Investigates (Muslim Extremists - EDL - Luton) - YouTube

I haven't watched it all yet - only a short clip. I want to watch it all to make sure I've got all the information.

Is it truly about fanatics as opposed to regular Muslims?

Apologies if I've caused any offence. I'm all for multiculturalism, I love variety and diversity. I live in a very multicultural suburb and I'd like to think I'm not racist or discriminatory. I just get a bit nervous when I see this sort of thing.

That strikes me as the opposite of multi-culturalism.
Rather, it's highly localized cultural intolerance.

 

[Father Heathen]

Diversity only works when respect and tolerance are mutual. Otherwise you end up with foreign cultures trying to impose themselves on their host country.

 

[LuisDantas]

Multiculturalism is much like democracy, really. It is awful and brings all kinds of serious problems, mostly because it is rarely done with enough care and seriousness.

As it turns out, though, the alternatives are all definitely worse.

 

[dust1n]

Yes, they're quite awful. The amount of people in each class is way too high, the teachers barely have time for actual teaching because of all the administrative work outside of the classroom, there's too little effort in helping students who need extra help, teachers have very little freedom and have to follow a very poorly made school plan, some teachers just don't know how to teach at all, many subjects (especially math) are approached from the wrong angle, tests are mostly written in class despite this being ineffective in actually teaching students anything, the universities educating teachers are bad and use outdated forms of pedagogy, the decisions made by politicians regarding schools are heavily opposed by most teacher's organisations, etc.

Amplify that times ten, and that's America.

 

[LemonGrenade]

Is multi-culturalism dangerous?

No, it's like gunpowder - fine until you put a flame on it. The flame in this case is comprised of the usual suspects - ignorance, intolerance, and so on.