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Is Meditation Progressive? Is it a Journey?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I have not observed the meditative process to be a journey. What I have observed is my brain trying very hard to see it as a journey. To treat it as a journey. To frame it as a journey. But I have not seen a journey. I have not seen anything genuinely progressive in the meditative process -- just the illusion of progress.

That doesn't mean the meditative process is not a journey for some. I don't know about others. But, for me, I cannot call it a journey.

So, is meditation a journey for you? Is it progressive for you? Or is the semblance of progress illusionary?

Is it possible to become realized through some kind of progressive meditation?
 
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Smoke

Done here.
I can't say that I've seen it to be much of a journey so far. But maybe I'm just not very good at it.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I can't say that I've seen it to be much of a journey so far. But maybe I'm just not very good at it.

I've got a little theory. The brain likes to see a progression in events. By the way, that's how we're story-telling animals. We can tell stories because we can see or perceive events to be progressive. In fact, the brain so much likes to see a progression in events that it imposes a progression on events even when there really isn't a progression. Hence, we see a progression in meditation. That's my little theory, at least.
 

blackout

Violet.
Some meditation brings you deep into the experience of the NOW moment.
(and almost beyond it... beyond your normal consciousness)
not sure what would be progressive about that.

Some meditations deal in energy manipulation.
This meditation is active... but not "necessarily" progressive.
Though it might be... if you are improving yourSelf... your health progressively,
in these meditations.

Other kinds of meditation... contemplative/reflective meditation ...
can be very progressive in nature.

At least these are my own experiences of meditation.

It's an interesting question.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Can you become realized through a progressive meditation? And if you can, is there a practice of progressive meditation that works with certainty for all people to bring them to enlightenment? Or are all forms of progressive meditation more or less hit or miss?
 
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DadBurnett

Instigator
Meditation is many different "things" to many different people. Meditation is sometimes experienced as a journey, sometimes as visions and insight, sometimes no more than thoughtless silence.
In a very real sense, meditation is what you want it to be, what you cause it to be and what you allow it to you to be. A lot of what "it is" is irrevocably linked to your purpose for meditating ...
 

blackout

Violet.
or... my Self BEcoming/ Self REALization is my 'journey'.
Meditation is an integral and important part of that journey.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I hate and loath meditation. Other times I love and enjoy it. But no matter how I feel about it at the time, I regard meditation as to that of a "raft" which is to be used during a journey as opposed to perceiving such as being the journey. A bit like Ultraviolet's expressed view.
 

Papersock

Lucid Dreamer
I'm still new to meditation and still learning how to do it properly, if there is such a thing.
But I don't think of meditation as a journey. I like what Nowhere Man said about it being the raft used for the journey.
At the moment I'm thinking of it as a guide to a way of being. Something like that.
 

Scarlett Wampus

psychonaut
Can you become realized through a progressive meditation? And if you can, is there a practice of progressive meditation that works with certainty for all people to bring them to enlightenment? Or are all forms of progressive meditation more or less hit or miss?
Wondering if you're using the right technique?

There is no practice that will work with certainty for all people because people are different. Circumstances are different. There will always be arguments for why this or that practice is better and everyone will have their recommendations. However, something you can be pretty much certain of is persistence is key.

So long as your practice has a long tradition of people saying, "I say chaps/chapesses, I just had the most surprising realisation." it probably worth persisting with it.

My take is that meditation is pretty much consistently the same practice. What progresses is the capacity for meditative absorption and what you can do with it. From Zen there are the traditional Five Ranks of Tozen or alternatively the Ten Bulls. Not traditional but often referred to is a progressive pattern is scattered mind, simple mind, one mind, no mind. From the Pali cannon there are the 4 rupajhana, blissful stages in deep concentration that progressively simplify leading to the 4 rrupajhana, formless/emptiness stages in deep concentration. The various fire and water methods of Taoist meditation all involve progressive stages in meditative absorption often with the addition of exercises for mental and physical transformation too.

I've found this way of looking at it helpful: There is a vertical scale and a horizontal scale. The vertical scale is the basic capacity for meditative absorption. Someone who practices sitting meditation alone and away from the world for most of the day each day is likely expand that scale fairly quickly. The horizontal scale is the capacity to integrate insights from meditative absorption into relationships with others, the world and the workings of your own psyche. Someone who can't expand the vertical scale because they only have a certain amount of time in their day to dedicate to sitting meditation due to other commitments & responsibilities will likely expand horizontally instead. You can't really lose so long as you persist.

In one of his books Jack Kornfield describes coming back to society from years in meditative retreat only to find to his dismay the neuroses that had driven him to seek sanctuary in meditation came back too. He had made lots of progress vertically but none horizontally. Despite the initial impression that nothing had changed he found he was able to use the capacity for meditative absorption to help overcome his neuroses and establish a life for himself. Lots of horizontal progress there.

I should say that at some point an extended meditative retreat is a very good idea. It really gets the ball rolling.
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I don't know. I'm rather intrigued by the notion that progression is a human construct we impose on events, rather than a property inherent in most events.
 

blackout

Violet.
well there is always change... is this a "progression" of sorts?

Even in music another term for the chord progression, is
"the changes" (or the chord changes)
(and they change one after the other "in time")

Life is constantly shifting and changing.

Improvising free flowing music is a wonderful meditation as well,
come to think of it.
 
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YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Oddly, I sort of agree with Sunny Phil. The TM that I do today is precisely the same as the TM I started doing 34 years ago. There is no real change in that process. It isn't the process of meditating that is the key however. It's what meditation helps to resolve much like a lens. In this regard meditation is more like a "rest stop" than the journey itself.

In theory the act of meditation promotes the expansion of awareness as well as aiding to concentrate "will". If you fail to do this, I'd suggest that you haven't got a very good method. In this regard, meditation isn't so much of an expanding process itself, but rather a mechanism for expanding awareness beyond its ususal confines. Consciousness will continue to grow on its own and meditation is like watering the plant.
 
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Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
If anything, the state I achieve while mediating is the one static/unchanging environment I can experience, regardless of how much time goes by. When I meditate now, I achieve a nearly identical state of mind as when I first started practicing. Even if I don't medidate for a couple of years, once I do, I go back to that state. For me, that aspect is somewhat comforting, as it is truly an unchanging state which connects me to every other time I've mediated over the years, as well as connects me to my own past.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
I have not observed the meditative process to be a journey. What I have observed is my brain trying very hard to see it as a journey. To treat it as a journey. To frame it as a journey. But I have not seen a journey. I have not seen anything genuinely progressive in the meditative process -- just the illusion of progress.

That doesn't mean the meditative process is not a journey for some. I don't know about others. But, for me, I cannot call it a journey.

So, is meditation a journey for you? Is it progressive for you? Or is the semblance of progress illusionary?

Is it possible to become realized through some kind of progressive meditation?
It depends on the purpose of your meditation and whether or not you're speaking of the act of meditation or the revelations within the meditation.
 

DadBurnett

Instigator
I don't know. I'm rather intrigued by the notion that progression is a human construct we impose on events, rather than a property inherent in most events.
I'm not sure I can wholly buy into either premise ... for me, progression implies movement of some kind, usually forward, onward, upward, inward ... Not just physical movement but movement in the sense of expansive thought. It's more than the acquisition of more facts; its the stuff of awareness and understanding what one previously did not understand.
Meditation is a tool and like most tools, it can be used in a variety of ways. Like a hammer, it can drive nails, crush rocks, open nuts - it can be used to build and break.
In any event, whenever I meditate there is a hopeful progression in my purpose for meditating. Meditation can facilitate clamness and relaxation, insight and inspiration, clarity and revelation, healing and ... and whatever ... whatever you are open to happening within or as a result of the meditative experience.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
If you are still trying,
You aren't

.......

Is it a journey? We can perceive it as, but we could also argue that the first step is the last.
The journey is returnign to where you already are....

Yes, returnign to where you already ARE

....

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I gained nothing at all from supreme enlightenment
It is for that very reason it is called supreme enlightenment

--Buddha
 

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
Meditation is many different "things" to many different people. Meditation is sometimes experienced as a journey, sometimes as visions and insight, sometimes no more than thoughtless silence.
In a very real sense, meditation is what you want it to be, what you cause it to be and what you allow it to you to be. A lot of what "it is" is irrevocably linked to your purpose for meditating ...
I'd like to second what DB says here............

While I don't really find meditation progressive, I do find it to be cumulative. By this I mean that the more (and more regularly) I meditate, the better I retain the calm and centeredness meditation brings to me, and the more small insights and realizations I can keep and use when I'm not meditating, if this makes any sense at all.
 
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