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Is Jesus a Mythical Character?

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Necessarily so. I am continually amazed at the crap books that come out about how Jesus was a myth or a pagan god or something like that. Meanwhile, having read literally thousands of journal articles, books, and monographs by experts in the field, I have yet to read one published within the last, say, 80 years who argued that Jesus was not a historical person. There may be scholars in other fields who argue this (for example, the professor of German Studies G. A. Wells), but they aren't much better, lacking the requisite study in the field. And it is true that I can't account for every scholar in the field of early christian studies/historical Jesus. However, from the extremes on both sides of the issue of NT historicity (e.g. Richard Bauckham vs. Rudolf Bultmann), everyone acknowledges that Jesus existed as a historical man.

What information outside of the bible is there that this "Jesus" existed...?

From what I have been reading, those that supposedly spoke about him have been deemed not a sufficient source. I think the greatest amount of information on this man is the NT. If you presented a case for a historical "Jesus" in todays court it might get thrown out. The books that speak of him were written by unknown authors years after his supposed death, coaberated by unknown witnesses who "said" they were eyewitnesses or stories told by a man (Saul/Paul) who never, as we can tell, in his whole life ever met the supposed "Jesus"...

We're really not left with very much in the way of evidence. Circumstantial at best really.

And yes...the life of the biblical Yeshua does resemble the god/men before and during his time.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Necessarily so. I am continually amazed at the crap books that come out about how Jesus was a myth or a pagan god or something like that. Meanwhile, having read literally thousands of journal articles, books, and monographs by experts in the field, I have yet to read one published within the last, say, 80 years who argued that Jesus was not a historical person. There may be scholars in other fields who argue this (for example, the professor of German Studies G. A. Wells), but they aren't much better, lacking the requisite study in the field. And it is true that I can't account for every scholar in the field of early christian studies/historical Jesus. However, from the extremes on both sides of the issue of NT historicity (e.g. Richard Bauckham vs. Rudolf Bultmann), everyone acknowledges that Jesus existed as a historical man.

We have a story of a godman that walked on water, calmed the seas and raised the dead. This has historical merit? Have you really thought this through?
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
We have a story of a godman that walked on water, calmed the seas and raised the dead. This has historical merit? Have you really thought this through?

That isn't what he said, or even close.

the question isn't about the historocity of the stories, it's about the figure the stories are based on.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
That isn't what he said, or even close.

the question isn't about the historocity of the stories, it's about the figure the stories are based on.

The figure that the stories are based on are of a godman that walked on water, calmed the seas and raised the dead. That's what we have at its core. He is the Son of man that will be revealed towards the end of the world as we know it. He will be the judge of all when the earth is destroyed. Death will be abolished and the righteous will live with Christ forever. This is what the story of Jesus is based on, he's a mythical character in all respects
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
The figure that the stories are based on are of a godman that walked on water, calmed the seas and raised the dead. That's what we have at its core. He is the Son of man that will be revealed towards the end of the world as we know it. He will be the judge of all when the earth is destroyed. Death will be abolished and the righteous will live with Christ forever. This is what the story of Jesus is based on, he's a mythical character in all respects

That's actually the story. So you're saying the story is based on ...the story.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
The story is all we have.

And yet, as Oberon pointed out, most scholars---people who know much more about all this than you or I are ever likely to---consider it very likely that the man the gospels are talking about existed when and where the gospels claim he did.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
And yet, as Oberon pointed out, most scholars---people who know much more about all this than you or I are ever likely to---consider it very likely that the man the gospels are talking about existed when and where the gospels claim he did.

The fact that most believe is of little consequence. Most scholars are believing Christians with few exceptions. Robert M. Price and Albert Schweitzer are the only two Christians I can name that admit Jesus is a mythical character. Most of the so called experts believed the world was flat for most of civilization. Most is a poor argument, fallacious at best.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
The fact that most believe is of little consequence. Most scholars are believing Christians with few exceptions. .

Then only read what non-christain scholars have to say. What's so hard about that?

You're thinking in black and white here; I'm not saying, "Most of the experts believe Jesus existed, therefore he must have", I'm saying, "If intelligent people who have devoted their lives to studying all this have come to a certain conclusion, it may be worthwhile looking at what they have to say (even if it isn't what you wanted to hear) before making definitive statements based on personal bias".

Robert M. Price and Albert Schweitzer are the only two Christians I can name that admit Jesus is a mythical character.

Then how exactly do they qualify as Christian? Isn't believing that Jesus actually existed a pretty basic requirement ?

Most of the so called experts believed the world was flat for most of civilization. Most is a poor argument, fallacious at best

Lol! "Fallacious at best"? then what is it at worst?

In any case, at this point I'm not arguing for or against the historocity of Jesus (personally, it doesn't matter to me that much) I'm arguing for making an effort to investigate something before assuming conclusions.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Then only read what non-christain scholars have to say. What's so hard about that?

You're thinking in black and white here; I'm not saying, "Most of the experts believe Jesus existed, therefore he must have", I'm saying, "If intelligent people who have devoted their lives to studying all this have come to a certain conclusion, it may be worthwhile looking at what they have to say (even if it isn't what you wanted to hear) before making definitive statements based on personal bias".
I have read what they have to say. I set out to discern the historical from the mythical with the bias, or the assumption, that there is an historical Jesus. It didn't occur to me that Jesus would be based soley on a mythical character, but as it turns out, that's all we have to go on. I argued for an historical Jesus on other forums before, but I no longer do.


Then how exactly do they qualify as Christian? Isn't believing that Jesus actually existed a pretty basic requirement ?
It's not for me to decide.


Lol! "Fallacious at best"? then what is it at worst?

In any case, at this point I'm not arguing for or against the historocity of Jesus (personally, it doesn't matter to me that much) I'm arguing for making an effort to investigate something before assuming conclusions.
It doesn't matter to me either. It is what it is. I know what the arguments are for an historical Jesus. I've read many different views.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
It doesn't matter to me either. It is what it is. I know what the arguments are for an historical Jesus. I've read many different views.

Then surely you've considered the views that separate Jesus the Sage from Christ the Savior.

The story from the gospels is clearly fictional.

But what about the philosophy that Jesus taught? Evangelicals didn't come up with those philosophies. I theorize that they came from the East; the parallels between Jesus's philosophy and Buddhist and Hindu philosophy are far too much for me to pass off as coincidental. Someone traveled to the East, learned about Buddhism and Hinduism, adapted these philosophies into his native Judaism, and came back to Israel to teach what he had learned.

If Jesus was a historical character, his life is not recounted at all in the gospels. It's far more likely that he was simply an itinerant sage who taught to a small group of followers.

Who knows? Maybe the Romans didn't like what Jesus was teaching, and executed him through crucifixion, and it was his small group of followers who were the predecessors of evangelical Christianity.

Of course, that's playing the "maybe" game. :D
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Then surely you've considered the views that separate Jesus the Sage from Christ the Savior.

The story from the gospels is clearly fictional.

But what about the philosophy that Jesus taught? Evangelicals didn't come up with those philosophies. I theorize that they came from the East; the parallels between Jesus's philosophy and Buddhist and Hindu philosophy are far too much for me to pass off as coincidental. Someone traveled to the East, learned about Buddhism and Hinduism, adapted these philosophies into his native Judaism, and came back to Israel to teach what he had learned.

If Jesus was a historical character, his life is not recounted at all in the gospels. It's far more likely that he was simply an itinerant sage who taught to a small group of followers.

Who knows? Maybe the Romans didn't like what Jesus was teaching, and executed him through crucifixion, and it was his small group of followers who were the predecessors of evangelical Christianity.

Of course, that's playing the "maybe" game. :D

Eastern influences could have been imported. The Gospel of Thomas, a sayings gospel, was discovered in Egypt which was on a major trading route with the far east. An exchange of ideas could have taken place there. Galilee was the last stop before a long and arduous land trek to Damascus and points beyond.
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Eastern influences could have been imported. The Gospel of Thomas, a sayings gospel, was discovered in Egypt which was on a major trading route with the far east. An exchange of ideas could have taken place there. Galilee was the last stop before a long and arduous land trek to Damascus and points beyond.

Okay.

Therefore we could have a Confucian or Socratic situation, where Jesus himself never wrote anything down, but his followers did. Jesus was a Sage who, hearing these eastern philosophies and liking them, adapted them into his native Judaism, and taught to a small group of people. After all, the gospel of Thomas opens up with: "These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded."


To me, it still is such that Jesus is the teachings, not the man himself. That's how I view all the Sages. They are embodied and immortal through their teachings.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Then only read what non-christain scholars have to say. What's so hard about that?

I think there are a remnent of christian scholars out there who don't show that they are bias in their scholarly research. The one that comes to my mind is

Dr. Robert Beckford
Oxford Brookes University
Robert Beckford | The website of Dr. Robert Beckford

You're thinking in black and white here; I'm not saying, "Most of the experts believe Jesus existed, therefore he must have", I'm saying, "If intelligent people who have devoted their lives to studying all this have come to a certain conclusion, it may be worthwhile looking at what they have to say (even if it isn't what you wanted to hear) before making definitive statements based on personal bias".

And yet we find christian theologians such as Robert Berckford informing us of the similarities and parallels of Mithra, Jesus, Horus etc.

Robert Beckford
YouTube - The Hidden Story of Jesus (Part 1 of 11)


YouTube - The Hidden Story of Jesus (Part 1 of 11)


Then how exactly do they qualify as Christian? Isn't believing that Jesus actually existed a pretty basic requirement ?

Again, see Robert Beckford above.
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I theorize that they came from the East; the parallels between Jesus's philosophy and Buddhist and Hindu philosophy are far too much for me to pass off as coincidental.

That could be true in light of the similarities but there are vast incompatible differences that can be noted as as well. -NM-
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
That could be true in light of the similarities but there are vast incompatible differences that can be noted as as well. -NM-

Most of them mythological.

I meant philosophical.

I read the Dhammapada and I find that most of the philosophy found within is paralleled in the teachings of Jesus. I find many similarities (and differences, yes) in the Upanishads.

To me, it's not important who's saying it; what's important is what's being said. And Jesus said much of the same things as Eastern Sages like Buddha.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
SOme of the teachings of the supposed Jesus are contradictory from gospel to gospel, in any case, I don't subscribe or agreee with all of the teachings of any sage, prophet etc. from any era.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Most of them mythological.

I meant philosophical.

I read the Dhammapada and I find that most of the philosophy found within is paralleled in the teachings of Jesus. I find many similarities (and differences, yes) in the Upanishads.

To me, it's not important who's saying it; what's important is what's being said. And Jesus said much of the same things as Eastern Sages like Buddha.

The documentary series I posted from Youtube of Dr. Robert Beckford shows some of the things you've been saying. He, being a devout christian, was able to give us information of the man Jesus and he did it in an unbiased way. For me this is a far better job than any other theologian. And yes, I do agree that what is attributed to the biblical Yeshua does seem to parallel other eastern philosophies before and during his time. For me I just haven't found convincing evidence that the biblical Yeshua was a real man who said the things that are attributed to him saying in the NT. I'm not sure he was a real person...rather a collective of those before him and now called "Jesus"....
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
SOme of the teachings of the supposed Jesus are contradictory from gospel to gospel, in any case, I don't subscribe or agreee with all of the teachings of any sage, prophet etc. from any era.

Alright then. The teachings that DO agree with each other from the three synoptic gospels, either agreeing with Mark or the supposed "Q" gospel.

I don't agree with all of any Sage's teachings, either. There are aspects of the Dhammapada, and therefore philosophies of the Buddha, that I disagree with very much.

But prophets are on a completely different plane than Sages. Prophets are people who supposedly glimpsed the supernatural and report what they've seen. "Sage" is pretty much my definition of a teacher of what I call practical wisdom; that is, philosophy that is very practical in its application. Such as "love thy enemy as thy neighbor." There have been thousands of Sages in the past, and thousands of Sages today.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
I am going to give a very basic sketch of the study of the historical Jesus, why experts have universally accepted Jesus as a historical figure, the biggest problems with the mainstream rejections of Jesus as pure myth, and finally give various sources to go for more information.

Before I start, I should state briefly my own religious bias and educational background (although I have stated these elsewhere in other posts). I am not Christian. I am currently working on my dissertation on the oral tradition within the Jesus tradition.

Why have scholars of the historical Jesus/early Christianity/NT studies/etc from all different religious backgrounds accepted Jesus as historical? Simply put, there is more historical evidence for Jesus than the vast majority of ancient figures. People who regard Jesus as mythical usually haven’t read enough ancient biographies or histories. They see the miracles and historical inaccuracies in the NT, along with the biases of the authors, and the vast gulf between the genre/style of the gospels and modern history books and conclude that we the gospels clearly can be rejected completely as unhistorical.

There is no problem with that conclusion, as long as you are ready to apply the same method of criticism to all ancient written history. For example, take Herodotus. The same person who first called Herodotus the “father of history” (Cicero) said in the same breath that in Herodotus “sunt innumerabiles fabulae” (De Legibus 1.5). As Stewart Flory writes in his book “The Archaic Smile of Herodotus: “Herodotus does not ever state at the beginning of his book or anywhere else that he will tell only the truth about the past, for the father of history does not always accept the superiority of truth to fiction. Herodotus often tells lengthy stories he admits are false, disproves plausible stories, or accepts preposterous ones without proof” (50). All ancient historians, even those more dedicated to the truth, accepted vastly different standards of what could be counted as history than we do today. They often accepted second, third, or fourth hand oral accounts. They included miraculous events or divine accounts within histories. They displayed incredible biases (ethnic, religious, etc) which colored and altered their accounts. For this reason, historians of ancient times have to sift through these sources and attempt differentiate between what is historical and what is not. The gospels, although they look blatantly unhistorical to us, fall into a genre of ancient biography. They are not so dissimilar to the “Lives” of ancient historians like “Plutarch.”

To take another example, let's look at Socrates, a historical figure whose existence few (if anyone) would doubt. Are main sources (and virtually our only sources, as with the gospels and jesus) of information for his life are from Plato, Xenophon (memrobilia) and Aristophanes (The Clouds). All three of the men knew Socrates. Yet their accounts of him are strikingly different. Xenophon presents a Socrates little concerned with problems of logic and metaphysics. Rather, his only concern is as a somewhat populist ethics teacher. Plato, on the otherhand, has Socrates very much concerned with metaphysical speculation. Aristophanes, radically differing from both, presents him as a buffoon. Now if we were to treat Socrates as so many would have us treat Jesus, we may imagine a "Socrates Myth," in which Socrates is no more than a mythic Wisdom character, to be used however a writer may wish, but who was never really any historical figure. This is in essence what popular non-experts have done with Jesus and the gospels.

Basically, when modern people who are not experts in the field look at the gospels and say “these aren’t historical and therefore nothing in them can be accepted as historical” are holding the gospels up to a modern standard of historical inquiry. Obviously, we can’t (unless for religious reasons) accept many things in the gospels as history, but the same holds true for all ancient history. So how do experts sort through the gospels for historical truth? I’ll get into this a little later. First I want to address the major problems with most mainstream “Jesus is a myth” books.

I’ll use one of the more popular and “historical looking” books as an example: “The Jesus Myth” by Freke and Gandy. First, it is important to point out that, like all authors of such books, these two are far from experts in the area. One has a B.A. in psychology, the other has an M.A. in Classical Studies (yet somehow their translations of Greek and knowledge of paganism are incredibly flawed). Next, I want to address the main issues in their book, most of which are shared by other such works:

1. Similarities between the Gospels and other pagan myths

This is a big one, and very popular. Frazer was one of the first to put forth this theory back in the days of “armchair anthropology,” and he was criticized even then for all the problems with the theory.

First, many of the similarities are superficial, and are made more significant by changing the language. For example, various pagan gods are said to have been resurrected (like Osiris) when actually his pieces were just put back together. Or comparisons are made between various pagan deities called “son of God” and Jesus. However, there is a vast difference between the son of a monotheistic God in what began as a Jewish cult, and sons of pagan gods who had children left and right.

2. Misunderstanding paganism

There is a whole nest of issues here, but I’ll mention one of the biggest here. Works like Freke and Gandy’s tend to view paganism as a somewhat unified whole. They draw aspects of this and that myth, put them all together haphazardly and then try to show how similar the Christian Jesus is to these myths. However, these are separate cults, and although pagans believed in many of these simultaneously, any one myth compared to the Jesus tradition is vastly different. If this isn’t bad enough, authors like Freke and Gandy not only pick and choose from various pagan myths to draw similarities, they also take quotes from philosophers and add these to further the comparison. The idea that a movement that began within Jewish circles would have (like Freke and Gandy and those similar to them) selected various aspects of pagan myths and put them together into a unified whole is ludicrous. Even Philo, the most Hellenized Jew we know of, retained his monotheism, and although he drew on pagan philosophy, he came nowhere near to the kind of bizarre syncretism posited by “Jesus myth” advocates.

3. Dating

If you look through Freke and Gandy’s book, you will see them compare many quotes from pagan works to works by Christians (both the NT and early Christian authors). I have already addressed on problem with this above (you can cherry pick versus from any vastly diversified system of thought and make it seem similar to virtually anything). Another is date. Many of their quotes are from works written AFTER the gospels, but they never mention that. Not only that, some of the pagan myths or cults they compare to Jesus were not even around until after all the gospels were written. Mithras is a figure frequently compared to Jesus. And indeed, of all the pagan gods he is probably the most similar. However, he is only similar in the Hellenistic mystery version of the cult, NOT the ancient Persian version. The Hellenistic mystery cult version did not exist until the beginning of the second century. In fact, many scholars argue that it was influenced by Christianity. In fact, the move to a unified pagan religion (all gods are one god) in late paganism was largely a response to Christianity, and didn’t take place until long after the gospels. Also, it probably existed only among the pagan literary elite.

4. Combining pagan myth with pagan philosophy

This is in part a combination of mistakes 1 and 2. Freke and Gandy frequently combine statements from philosophers with aspects of pagan myths. However, the two existed quite separately.

I could go on, but these are some of the biggest types of methodological problems (to be distinguished from outright errors, which are all over the place) found in “The Jesus Myth” and similar works.

(cont. on next post)
 
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