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Is Jesus a Mythical Character?

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Does it matter?
Probably not to the individual who only sees this life as his only existence!!
But if he did walk the earth and did and said the things he claimed, then I would say those who don't adhere to his sayings or believe in his name will have some very serious problems at some point in their life, or should I say,"death"
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
doppelgänger;1408055 said:
Don't know, think it's arrogant to claim one knows when one doesn't, and it doesn't matter to me whether he was or he wasn't.
So your saying one can't know and if one supposes he knows, he's arrogant.
As a follower of Christ,as I think you allege, should'nt it matter, and if does'nt matter to you, how do you reconcile your claim of being christian.

I assume that most if not all of the stories we have about him are mythological in nature rather than historical, because given their content, the time of their writing and their similarity to other mythological stories, that seems like a reasonable thing to do.
So would you say that the other ancient writings such as,Pliny, Plato. Lucretius, Demosthenes, Herodotus,Aristotle, Homer (Iliad), Caesar etc. are mythical and unreliable and probably fabricated.


Aside from that, the truth of Christianity is not in the believing in a history or ontology to me
The scritpures speak of the past present and future concerning man and the things of God,.......is this not history.
According to scripture, Christ is the epitome of truth among other things, so where do we find truth, besides a personal encounter with God. If it's not in the ancient writings of scirpture,God's word, which in essence are actually history.

What is the truth about Christianity???
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Friends,
Surely he never wrote the Bible?
Who ever did, surely exxagerated it.
Otherwise surely there is no smoke without fire and so Jesus not only walked but was an enlightened person.
Only point remains, is that few have attained enlightenment by following his way/steps.
Love & rgds
So you know the experiences of all mankind and are therefore their spokesman.
That depends on your definition of"enlightenment"
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Since your apparently are a Christian, you say spirit filled, then I guess you and I both believe that He lives and once was here on earth. Others claim that He did certain miracles and apparently gave witness that He was here.

As believers the thing that we should pay attention to is the fact that we keep His commandments, love each other as He loved us and keep the faith with the anticipation and blessed assurance that the Bridegroom will soon return for His Bride.

I think you left out the most important part, hint, it's the reason Jesus came. Luke 19
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
I think of Yeshua as possibly a metaphorical being at times that reflects the ancient Egyptian dying God concepts, but at the very least I see Him possibly as a Jewish Mystic, possibly an Initiate into the Mystery Schools, possibly a Mage.
I do not associate Him with the Christian religion.
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
As Jesus left no writings, I don't think we can speak of his having claimed to do anything at all. The claims are those of others.

I've made it abundantly clear recently that I do think Jesus was a real, live 1st-century Jewish sage. I think he was likely born at Nazareth and that he had a brother named James. I don't consider it unlikely that Joseph and Mary were his parents' real names. I think he was a disciple of John the Baptist, at least for a time, and was baptized by John, that some of his teachings have been preserved, that he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and that he was succeeded as head of his religious community by his brother James. I even think it's likely that James really was succeeded by his kinsman Symeon, and that there's probably a grain of truth in the story of Zoker and James -- that is, I don't really believe they were summoned to Rome by Domitian, but it doesn't seem unlikely to me that Jesus had a brother, Jude, whose descendants were known to third- or fourth-generation members of the Jesus community. I think the Ebionites were probably the most faithful continuation of that community, and that the Jesus movement was very much a Jewish movement, with Pauline Christianity diverging sharply from the movement.

I don't believe that that gospels were written by eyewitnesses to Jesus' life, that they are historically reliable, or that they preserve the unadulterated teachings of Jesus.

I guess that's why your a "Buddist", but I'm curious as to what writings you espouse to that support your religion.
Is'nt also possible,"Gautama Budda" was mythical character and his writings just propaganda.
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Even if Jesus really lived, it's impossible to corroborate all the claims he made nearly 2,000 years ago from testimony written 70 years after his death. Which makes the threat of hell even more ludicrous given the scanty evidence concerning who Christ was.
What Christian before he comes to the cross ,has all the "T's" crossed and "i's" dotted concerning the claims that Christ or any writer of the bible made.
Most Christians come to God broken,repentitive and surrrendered and it's there God begins to mend and reconcile sinful man with hinmself through the pwoer of the Holy Spirit.
Human wisdom,intellect, philosophy,tradition, scientific approach will never answer the question of who Jesus is and if God truly exists.

It is not the written word alone that gives us this knowledge ,the word attests to us only after the Holy Spirit has illuminated it's meaning in our hearts.
Otherwise, the bible would be just another collection of good, moral, historical and truthful writings of antiquity with no real difference of other writings.
 

Dezzie

Well-Known Member
It is very possible Jesus walked the Earth and did what he did... Just like others said though, I wasn't there... I have no idea. :confused:
 

logician

Well-Known Member
I think, given the dearth of evidence of his existence, the style of writing of the gospels, and similiarities to other religious mythos, that Jesus was a mythical character. Of course, the myth has been expanded upon tremendously by the various churches since the beginning of Christianity, Christians that lived during the first few centuries would not even recognize or understand the churches we have today.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Human wisdom,intellect, philosophy,tradition, scientific approach will never answer the question of who Jesus is and if God truly exists.
How is one supposed to know Jesus is truth if you don't use your intellect and wisdom? Just tap your toes and say, "I believe?". Surely you have some "proof" that convinced you. What was it?

It is not the written word alone that gives us this knowledge ,the word attests to us only after the Holy Spirit has illuminated it's meaning in our hearts.
Otherwise, the bible would be just another collection of good, moral, historical and truthful writings of antiquity with no real difference of other writings.
What you call the Holy Spirit others call by many other names. Why are the whispers from your "holy spirit" the only truth? Who tells you this?
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
How is one supposed to know Jesus is truth if you don't use your intellect and wisdom? Just tap your toes and say, "I believe?". Surely you have some "proof" that convinced you. What was it?

What you call the Holy Spirit others call by many other names. Why are the whispers from your "holy spirit" the only truth? Who tells you this?

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but according to scripture,my own and hundreds of testimonies of people I know and have heard, intellect, reason and wisdom have seldom, if ever been mentioned in a conversion testimony.
As a matter of fact, God scoffs at the wisdom of this world.
1Cr 2:13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cr 3:19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Cr 1:19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

It's the Holy Spirit that draws you to the father, that is an experience and a scriptural truth and one to be had by those who first acknowledge their sin and are broken in spirit.

It does'nt matter about your scholastic achievements, IQ, your, associations, it is the work of the Holy Spirit and none other that confirms the truth.

..but Jhn 14:17[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The knowing of the Holy Spirit and God comes after the leading.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but according to scripture,my own and hundreds of testimonies of people I know and have heard, intellect, reason and wisdom have seldom, if ever been mentioned in a conversion testimony.
That is quite sad and pathetic, I'm sorry to say. Generally I'm not overly critical of a person's faith but if you're saying you don't need your intellect, reason or wisdom to discern who God is, you are truly the lost one.
 

Smoke

Done here.
I guess that's why your a "Buddist", but I'm curious as to what writings you espouse to that support your religion.
Is'nt also possible,"Gautama Budda" was mythical character and his writings just propaganda.
Please note that I don't say that Jesus was just a mythical character. Nor do I think that Gautama is just a mythical character. But certainly, there are many legendary stories about Gautama that are historically worthless, just as there are about Jesus.

I don't espouse writings to support my religion. I'm not trying to convert anybody or prove anything to anybody. I take what I can understand and what seems useful to me. Many of the writings that are useful to me are Buddhist writings; others are Quaker or Taoist or of other traditions. What does not seem useful to me may be useful to another, and what is useful to me may not be useful for another. There are many Buddhist writings, but no real Buddhist Bible.

Since I don't read or understand Pali, Sanskrit, Tibetan, Chinese, or Japanese, I take my teachers where I can find them. The Dhammapada, the Heart Sutra, the Dao De Jing, Chögyam Trungpa (Shambhala), Seung Sahn (Jongye Seon/Kwan Um Zen), Ajahn Chah (Theravada), George Fox (Quaker), Natalie Goldberg (Zen), Brad Warner (Soto Zen), Jiddu Krishnamurti (no religion), Helen and Scott Nearing (no religion), Bertrand Russell (no religion), Elias Hicks (Quaker), Frederick Douglass (Christian, former member of the American Methodist Episcopal Zion Church), James Cone (African Methodist Episcopal), St. Gregory of Nyssa (Orthodox Christian), the author of The Way of a Pilgrim (Orthodox Christian), and many others have been good teachers for me, though I don't claim to believe or even understand everything that's found in their teachings.
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
That is quite sad and pathetic, I'm sorry to say. Generally I'm not overly critical of a person's faith but if you're saying you don't need your intellect, reason or wisdom to discern who God is, you are truly the lost one.

Your response is only a fulfillment of scripture: it's foolishness,you receive it not, and you can't know the things of God, according to God's word..... if that means anything.

This is not the only reference, Jesus made it abundantly clear as well that the mystery concerning the kingdom of heaven and the things of God are hid to those outside. He was speaking to the religious leaders,lawyers, high ranking officials, philosophers, the like, but Paul makes it clear as well that they are spiritual discerned
Paul was a murderer of christians,, he was taught under Gamaliel,brought up zealous for God (religion), considerablly above his peers in the law and knowledge, yet he was ignorant of the fact of who Jesus was.
1Cr 2:14But the natural man(without the Holy Spirit) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Why do you take this as an insult against your intellect,as if this was a personal attack. it's just a fundamental fact concerning the Kingdom of Heaven.
You don't have to like it, or agree with it, it's a truth.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Your response is only a fulfillment of scripture: it's foolishness,you receive it not, and you can't know the things of God, according to God's word..... if that means anything.
Sure it means something....it's the same stuff I used to hear at church for the 25 years I was a devoted Baptist.
Why do you take this as an insult against your intellect,as if this was a personal attack. it's just a fundamental fact concerning the Kingdom of Heaven.
You don't have to like it, or agree with it, it's a truth.
I wasn't taking it as a personal attack at all. It's just that we were always taught to love the lord our god with all of our heart, soul and minds. You seem to think it's a bad thing to use your intellect and the wisdom you have gathered through the years to question who God is.

Also, you claim that the bible is not your only inspiration yet you quote it constantly. My thought is that if there is a God, he's waaaaay too big to be limited through the definition of just Christianity. I enjoy using my mind to discover what other cultures have said about God. No use limiting who God is to the definition in one book. :shrug:
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I think the notion of Jesus being the son of God to be mythical. So too is the virgin birth.

Both belief have some pagan elements in it.

Examples, of being a child of deity (ie demigod):

Gilagmesh son of the goddess Ninsun; Achilles son of Thetis; Perseus, Heracles and whole heaps of children of Zeus.

Example of virgin birth: Danae was impregnated through shower of gold (the form which Zeus took), and she later gave birth to the hero Perseus.

The question is to you, roli.

What do you mean by:

roli said:
Or did he actually walk the earth

Did he?

I only recall his 40 days wandering and him walking on water.

And even these are highly mythical.

Dionysus went to India and back. And Euphemus and Iphiclus could run on water, or on top of crops without bending or breaking the stalks.

roli said:
and do the things he claimed he did ?

I don't think Jesus claim many things. It is the gospel writers who make claim of the miracles. Jesus taught, but as far as the narratives go, he wrote nothing.

Many of the miracles of Jesus have folkloric natures, so it's not really dependable.
 
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challupa

Well-Known Member
I wasn't taking it as a personal attack at all. It's just that we were always taught to love the lord our god with all of our heart, soul and minds. You seem to think it's a bad thing to use your intellect and the wisdom you have gathered through the years to question who God is.

Also, you claim that the bible is not your only inspiration yet you quote it constantly. My thought is that if there is a God, he's waaaaay too big to be limited through the definition of just Christianity. I enjoy using my mind to discover what other cultures have said about God. No use limiting who God is to the definition in one book. :shrug:
Yes, if there is a God I don't think he made us to be mindless drones!
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
As a follower of Christ,as I think you allege, should'nt it matter,

No.

and if does'nt matter to you, how do you reconcile your claim of being christian.

Easy. Your vision of what constitutes "Christianity" is exceeding narrow-minded.


So would you say that the other ancient writings such as,Pliny, Plato. Lucretius, Demosthenes, Herodotus,Aristotle, Homer (Iliad), Caesar etc. are mythical and unreliable and probably fabricated.
To some extent yes. History in general is a type of mythology, too. Though it serves a different function than the god-man hero story genre of which the Jesus stories are a part.





The scritpures speak of the past present and future concerning man and the things of God,.......is this not history.
Not to me.

According to scripture, Christ is the epitome of truth among other things, so where do we find truth, besides a personal encounter with God. If it's not in the ancient writings of scirpture,God's word, which in essence are actually history.
Scripture? . . . Eh . . . garbage in and garbage out.

What is the truth about Christianity???

Narrow that down and we can talk. There are many truths in Christianity. One has to have the Spirit of the Living God rather than the idolatrous "God of the Bible" to discern it though. Interested, roli, in real truth and real salvation? You can give up your dead history and even deader scripture and live the real mystery of Christ in you instead of just believing things that other men have said.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
roli said:
As a matter of fact, God scoffs at the wisdom of this world.
1Cr 2:13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cr 3:19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Cr 1:19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

So God only wants fools and ignorants?

Don't we get enough of that mentality from mobs, like the KKK or Salem's witchhunt?

Belief without wisdom is a recipe for disaster.
 
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