Is it true the Kabbha was a Hindu temple?

[Truthshallprevail]

Brother K.Venugopal,

Thank you for your reply. It is not my intention to in any way come across as offensive, so I hope you will not take offense . I am merely a student of comparative religion( this includes Hinduism) and I really thank you for the feedback. While I may seem critical in my judgement it it not my intention to do so. I learn a lot from dialogs like this.

Many people have misconception that Islam is a new religion, which came into existence 1400 years ago and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the founder of this religion. In fact, Islam is there since time immemorial. Since man set foot on the earth, and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is not the founder of this religion but he is the last and final messenger sent by Almighty God, the last and final Prophet.

Lets look at the meaning of the word Hindu and Islam.The word Hindu has geographical significance and was used to describe the people living beyond the river Sindhu or people living in the land watered by river Indus. Most of the historians, they say, that this word Hindu was first used by the Arabs. Some historians say it was used by the Persians when they came to India through the north western passes of Himalaya. According to encyclopedia of religion and ethics, Volume 6, Ref 699, it says that the word Hindu was not found in any of the Indian literature before the advent of the Muslims to India. According to Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, in his Book the discovery of India on pg 74,75 that the word Hindu can be earliest traced to a source a tantrik in 8th century and it was used initially to describe the people, it was never used to describe religion. Its connection with religion is of late occurrence according to Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. The word Hinduism is derived from the word Hindu. The word Hinduism was first used by the English writers in the 19th century to describe the multiplicity of faiths of the people of India. According to new Encyclopedia Britannica, Volume 20 it says the word Hinduism was first used by the British writers in the year 1830 to describe the multiplicity of the faiths of the people of India excluding the converted Christians. That is the reason today, majority of the Hindu scholars they say that the word Hinduism is a misnomer. The correct word should be Sanatan Dharm, the eternal religion or the Vedic Dharm, the religion of the Vedas. According to Swami Vivekananda, he says the word Hindu is a misnomer; the correct word should be a Vendantist, a person who follows the Vedas. Let us understand what is the meaning of the word Islam. Islam comes from the root Arabic word salam, which means peace. It is also derived from the Arabic word silm,which means to submit your will to Almighty God. In short, Islam means peace acquired by submitting your will to Almighty God and this word Islam occurs in several places in the Qur’an and sahih hadith.

It is not appropriate to try and understand a religion or to try and understand the concept of God in a religion, by observing the followers of that religion( this is a trap which I sometime find myself falling into ); because many a times the followers of that religion, they themselves may not be aware about the religion or the concept of God in the religion; neither it is appropriate to observe or look at the traditions or the cultures of the followers of the religion because many of the cultures and traditions may not be part of the religion. The best and the most authentic way to understand any religion or the concept of God in a religion is to try and understand what the sacred scriptures have to speak about that religion or the concept of God in that religion.

In Hinduism, the sacred scriptures have been divided into 2 parts. The Shrutis and the Smritis. Shruti, in Sanskrit means that which is perceived, that which is understood, that which is revealed and the Shrutis are considered to be the word of God and they are more sacred than the Smritis. The Shrutis are further divided into 2 types, the Vedas and the Upanishads. Veda is derived from the Sanskrit word vid, which means knowledge par excellence, it also means sacred wisdom. Basically, there are 4 Vedas. This is the Rig-Veda, we have the Yajur-Veda, we have the Sama-Veda, and we have the Atharva-Veda. There are 4 Vedas but there are difference of opinion regarding how old are the Vedas. According to Swami Dayanand Saraswati, the founder of Arya Samaj, he says the Vedas are 1310 million years old, but the majority of the Hindu scholars they say the Vedas are approximately 4000 years old. There is difference of opinions regarding where did the Vedas come into existence the first time. There is also difference of opinion regarding who was the Rishi to whom the Veda was given the first time. In spite of these differences regarding the age of the Veda, the part in which it came first, to whom it was given; in spite of these differences, yet the Vedas are considered to be the most authentic of all the sacred scriptures of Hinduism, the most sacred amongst all the scriptures of Hinduism. If any other Hindu scripture contradicts the Vedas, the Vedas are supposed to be followed. The next in the authority we have, are the Upanishads. These are the Upanishads. Upanishad is derived from the Sanskrit word, upa which means near, nee means down, shad means sit, “sitting down near.” When the pupil sat down near the guru to acquire knowledge, it was called as Upanishad. It is also called as knowledge which removes ignorance. There are more than 200 Upanishads, but the Indian culture puts the figure of 108 and people have picked up and compiled Upanishad known as principal Upanishad. Radhakrishnan has picked up 18 Upanishads and written a Book “The principal Upanishads.” Next type of the Hindu scriptures, we have are the Smritis. The word Smriti means to hear. It means to remember. It means memory. Smritis are less sacred than the Shrutis. They are not the word of Almighty God and they have been written by Rishis and by human beings. They contain the creation of the universe, how a lifestyle should be lead by a human being on an individual level, on a community level, on a society level. They are also referred as the Dharm Shastra. There are various types of Smritis. We have the Puranas. Puranas means ancient. Maharishi Vyas, he has compiled the Puranas into 80 voluminous parts. This is one of the Puranas known as The Bhavishya Purana. Then, we have the Itihas, the epics, there are two epics, the Ramayan and the Mahabharat. The Ramayan deals with, as most of the Indians know with the story of Sri Ram and the Mahabharat deals with the story it is a feud, a fight between the cousins, the Pandavas and the Kawrawas. It also deals with the story of Sri Krishna. These are the 2 great epics. Then, we have the Bhagwat Gita. Bhagwat Gita is part of Mahabharath, it has 18 Chapters of Mahabharath from the Bheeshma Parv Chapter 25 to Chapter 42. It is an advice given by Sri Krishna to Arjun in the battle field. It is the most popular and most widely read sacred scriptures amongst all the Hindu scriptures. Then, we have the Manusmriti and various others. This was in brief regarding the sacred scriptures of Hinduism; but the most sacred, most authentic amongst all the scriptures is the Veda. If anything contradicts the Vedas, we have to follow the Veda.

As you are aware the most sacred amongst all the Islamic scriptures it is the glorious Qur’an. The glorious Qur’an is the last and final revelation of Allah, Almighty God which was revealed to the last and final messenger, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). The Qur’an says in Surah Ra’ad Chapter 13, Verse 38 “li-Kulli ajalin kitaab” in every age have we sent a revelation. There are several revelations of Almighty God sent on the face of the earth, by name, 4 are mentioned in the Qur’an; the Torah, the Zabur, the Ingil, and the Qur’an; but there are various others like Suhufi Ibrahim; but all the scriptures that came, all the revelations that was sent by Almighty God before the last and final revelation of the glorious Qur’an, they were only meant for a particular group of people; and the message which they preached was supposed to be followed only till a particular time period. But because Qur’an is the last and final revelation of Almighty God, it was not sent only for the Muslims or only for the Arabs, it was sent for the whole of humanity. Allah says in the Qur’an in Surah Hijr and in Surah Ibrahim Chapter #14 Verse #1, “Alif-Laaam Raa.” We have revealed this Book to thee, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) so that thou may leadest the human kind from darkness to light. Not only the Muslims or the Arabs, but the whole of humankind. The same message is repeated that the Qur’an is for the whole of human kind in several Verses that the Qur’an was revealed for the whole of humankind.The next scriptures in Islam are the Sahih Hadith. The authentic sayings and traditions of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). There are many; one of them is the Sahih Al-Bhukari. We also have the Sahih Muslim. The hadith of the Prophet, the authentic sayings and traditions are a commentary of the Qur’an. The complimentary to the Qur’an. They will never contradict the Qur’an. This was in brief regarding the scriptures in these two great religions.

 

[Truthshallprevail]

Further to that Brother K.Venugopal,

If anyone says something which matches with the scriptures we have to agree. If we give any example, if it matches with the scriptures, we have to take it. If I say something and if it does not match with the scripture; if I give an example which does not match with the scripture, we have to reject it.

Now that that is clear. If we ask the common Hindu that how many Gods does he believe in? some may say 3, some may say 100, some may say 1000, while others may say 33 crores, 330 millions. But if you ask a learned Hindu who is well Versed with his Hindu scriptures, he will tell you that in Hinduism you should believe and worship only one God. But the common Hindu, he believes in a philosophy known as pantheism, everything is God. The common Hindu believes that the tree is God, the sun is God, the moon is God, the human being is God, the snake is God. What we Muslims believe is everything is God’s, everything belongs to God’s, ‘G’ ‘O’ ‘D’ with an apostrophe ‘s’; the tree belongs to God, the sun belongs to God, the moon belongs to God, the human being belongs to God, the snake belongs to God. So the major difference between the common Hindu and the common Muslim is that the common Hindu says everything are Gods, we Muslim say everything is God’s. The major difference is the apostrophe ‘s’. If we can solve this difference of apostrophe ‘s’, the Hindus and the Muslims will be united. How would you do it? As the Qur’an says taAAalawila kalimatin sawa-in baynana wabaynakum (come to common terms as in us and you) which is the first term? allanaAAbuda illa Allaha (that you worship none but Almighty God).

Let's try to understand what would the sacred scriptures of Hinduism have to speak about Almighty God. It is mentioned in the Chandogya Upanishad Chapter 6, Section 2, Verse 1; ekam evaditiyam God is only one without a second. It is a Sanskrit quotation.

It is mentioned in Swethaswethara Upanishad, Chapter 6, Verse 9, Na casya kasuj janita na cadhipah, which means of him of Almighty God, there are no parents they have got no lord. Almighty God has no true father, he has no true mother, he has no true superior.

It is mentioned in the Swethaswethara Upanishad; Chapter 4, Verse 19 Na Tasya Pratima Asti of that God there is no Prathima, there is no likeness, there is no image, there is no picture, there is no photograph, there is no sculpture, there is no statue.

It is mentioned in Swethaswethara Upanishad; Chapter 4, Verse 20; no one can see the Almighty God and it is further mentioned in Bhagwat Gita Chapter 7, Verse 20; all those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires, they worship many Gods.

If we refer Bhagwat Gita Chapter 7 Verse 20 and Bhagwat Gita Chapter 10 Verse 3, that they know me as the unborn not begotten, the supreme lord of the world. Amongst all the Hindu scriptures, the most sacred are the Vedas. It is mentioned in Yajur-Ved Chapter 32, Verse 3 Na Tasya Pratima Asti of that God there is no Prathima. Prathima as means likeness, image, picture, photo, sculpture, statue. It is further mentioned in Yajur-Ved Chapter 40 Verse 8 Almighty God is imageless and pure.

Atharva-Ved Book 20 Hymn 58 Manthra 3 Dev maha osi verily great is Almighty God; and amongst the Vedas, the most sacred is the Rig-Ved. It is mentioned in the Rig-Ved Book 1, Hymn 164, Manthra 46, ekkam sat vipra bhuda vidyante Truth is one, God is one, sages call him by various names. God is one but the saintly people call him by many names and there are no less than 33 names given to Almighty God in Rig-Ved Book 2 Hymn 1 alone. One of them is Brahma. The Brahma is called as the creator. If you translate creator into Arabic, it means khaaliq. We Muslims have got no objection if someone says that Almighty God is khaaliq or Creator, but if someone says this Almighty God has got 4 heads and on each head is a crown, you are giving an image to Almighty God. We Muslims take strong exception to it.

More over, you are going against Swethaswethara Upanishad Chapter 4 Verse 19 which says Na Tasya Pratima Asti, of that God there are no images. The other name given to Almighty God in Rig-Ved, Book 2, Hymn 1, Verse 3 is Vishnu. Vishnu is called as the God who is the sustainer. If you translate Sustainer into Arabic, it is somewhat similar to Rabb. We Muslims have got no objection if someone calls Almighty God as Rabb or Sustainer, but if someone says he is Almighty God who has got 4 hands and giving an image to Almighty God, in one hand is the lotus, the second hand is the conch, traveling on the sea on the bed of snakes, we Muslims take strong objection to it. Moreover you are going against the Yajur-Ved, Chapter 32, Verse 3 which says Na Tasya Pratima Asti of that God there is no prathima. There is no likeness, there is no image, there is no picture, there is no statue, no sculpture.

It is further mentioned in Rig-Ved Book 8, Hymn 1, Manthra 1 Ma chitanidi sansad worship him alone, one God, praise him alone. It is mentioned in Rig-Ved, Book 6, Hymn 45 Manthra 16, praise him alone, worship that one God and the Brahma Sutra of Hinduism is dvitiya naste neh na naste kinchan Bhagwan ek hi hai doosra nahi hai, nahi hai, nahi hai, zara bhi nahi hai. There is only one God not a second one, not at all, not at all, not in the least bit. So, if you read the Hindu scriptures, you shall understand the concept of God in Hinduism in the light of the sacred scriptures.

Let us understand the concept of God in Islam. The best reply anyone can give you from the scriptures is quote to you Surah Ikhlaas, Chapter 112 Verse 1 to 4 which says Qul Hu-wallaahu Ahad (say he is Allah one and only) Allaahus-Samad (Allah the absolute and eternal) Lam yalid, wa lam yuulad (he begets not nor is he begotten) walum yakul-la-Huu kufu-wan ahad (there is nothing like him). This is a 4-line definition of Allah subhaanawa thaala, of Almighty God given in the Qur’an. If any person says so and so candidate is God, if that candidate fits in this 4- line definition, we Muslims have got no objection in accepting that candidate as God. But obviously no 'being' will fit this candidate but God himself. This 'authenticity' test should be considered if any person or human claims to be God( which is the case in many occasions in history) My intention is to let all the Hindu and Muslim brothers and sisters understand the correct concept in these 2 great religions. My intention is not to hurt anyone’s feelings.

Since Almighty God is the creator of the human beings, he does not have to become a human being to know what is good or what is bad for the human being. What does he do? He has to reveal an instruction manual; and the last and final instruction manual for the human beings is the glorious Qur’an. No one can write a better book on Art of Living than the Creator himself. Therefore, I say that the Qur'an is the best book on Art of Living, it is the instruction manual for the human beings, the do’s and dont’s, how our life should be led. A quotation of the glorious Qur’an from Surah An’aam Chapter 6 Verse 108 which says that revile not those Gods who they worship besides Allah, lest in the ignorance they will revile Allah subhaana wa thaala.

Peace be unto you

 

[nameless]

Truthshallprevail,
these are all off topic, when you copy paste from somewhere you should provide the link to the source too. And proselytizing is not allowed here.

source to the above articles
The Concept of God in Hinduism and Islam

Light Of Sacred Scriptures

 

[K.Venugopal]

Thank you for your reply. It is not my intention to in any way come across as offensive, so I hope you will not take offense . I am merely a student of comparative religion( this includes Hinduism) and I really thank you for the feedback. While I may seem critical in my judgement it it not my intention to do so. I learn a lot from dialogs like this.

I quite suspect “students of comparative religions” because it would appear most students only pursue attempts to find fault with other religions vis-à-vis their own. This must be particularly so with Muslims because they are not supposed to equate any other religion with Islam. True students of various religions must learn to appreciate the uniqueness of each religion and the historical role of various religions.

Many people have misconception that Islam is a new religion, which came into existence 1400 years ago and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the founder of this religion. In fact, Islam is there since time immemorial. Since man set foot on the earth, and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is not the founder of this religion but he is the last and final messenger sent by Almighty God, the last and final Prophet.

Islam is about believing that Mohammad is the last prophet and those who do not unequivocally do this are not considered followers of Islam. That is why the Ahmadiyas, for example, are not considered Muslims. Quran was not there before Mohammad, so how could there have been Islam before Mohammad? You could say religion has been there since time immemorial but certainly you can’t say that Islam has been there since time immemorial.

Lets look at the meaning of the word Hindu and Islam.The word Hindu has geographical significance and was used to describe the people living beyond the river Sindhu or people living in the land watered by river Indus. Most of the historians, they say, that this word Hindu was first used by the Arabs. Some historians say it was used by the Persians when they came to India through the north western passes of Himalaya. According to encyclopedia of religion and ethics, Volume 6, Ref 699, it says that the word Hindu was not found in any of the Indian literature before the advent of the Muslims to India. According to Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, in his Book the discovery of India on pg 74,75 that the word Hindu can be earliest traced to a source a tantrik in 8th century and it was used initially to describe the people, it was never used to describe religion. Its connection with religion is of late occurrence according to Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. The word Hinduism is derived from the word Hindu. The word Hinduism was first used by the English writers in the 19th century to describe the multiplicity of faiths of the people of India. According to new Encyclopedia Britannica, Volume 20 it says the word Hinduism was first used by the British writers in the year 1830 to describe the multiplicity of the faiths of the people of India excluding the converted Christians. That is the reason today, majority of the Hindu scholars they say that the word Hinduism is a misnomer. The correct word should be Sanatan Dharm, the eternal religion or the Vedic Dharm, the religion of the Vedas. According to Swami Vivekananda, he says the word Hindu is a misnomer; the correct word should be a Vendantist, a person who follows the Vedas.

What you have stated here are plain facts and Hindus accept it. So what are you trying to say?

Let us understand what is the meaning of the word Islam. Islam comes from the root Arabic word salam, which means peace. It is also derived from the Arabic word silm,which means to submit your will to Almighty God. In short, Islam means peace acquired by submitting your will to Almighty God and this word Islam occurs in several places in the Qur’an and sahih hadith.

OK. These are also accepted as standard facts. So what are you trying to say?

It is not appropriate to try and understand a religion or to try and understand the concept of God in a religion, by observing the followers of that religion( this is a trap which I sometime find myself falling into ); because many a times the followers of that religion, they themselves may not be aware about the religion or the concept of God in the religion; neither it is appropriate to observe or look at the traditions or the cultures of the followers of the religion because many of the cultures and traditions may not be part of the religion. The best and the most authentic way to understand any religion or the concept of God in a religion is to try and understand what the sacred scriptures have to speak about that religion or the concept of God in that religion.

Jesus said that a tree is best known by its fruits. Please chew on the deep philosophy of what Jesus said and reconsider the worth of a religion if its perfection is restricted to a stand alone scripture.

In Hinduism, the sacred scriptures have been divided into 2 parts. The Shrutis and the Smritis. Shruti, in Sanskrit means that which is perceived, that which is understood, that which is revealed and the Shrutis are considered to be the word of God and they are more sacred than the Smritis. The Shrutis are further divided into 2 types, the Vedas and the Upanishads. Veda is derived from the Sanskrit word vid, which means knowledge par excellence, it also means sacred wisdom. Basically, there are 4 Vedas. This is the Rig-Veda, we have the Yajur-Veda, we have the Sama-Veda, and we have the Atharva-Veda. There are 4 Vedas but there are difference of opinion regarding how old are the Vedas. According to Swami Dayanand Saraswati, the founder of Arya Samaj, he says the Vedas are 1310 million years old, but the majority of the Hindu scholars they say the Vedas are approximately 4000 years old. There is difference of opinions regarding where did the Vedas come into existence the first time. There is also difference of opinion regarding who was the Rishi to whom the Veda was given the first time. In spite of these differences regarding the age of the Veda, the part in which it came first, to whom it was given; in spite of these differences, yet the Vedas are considered to be the most authentic of all the sacred scriptures of Hinduism, the most sacred amongst all the scriptures of Hinduism. If any other Hindu scripture contradicts the Vedas, the Vedas are supposed to be followed. The next in the authority we have, are the Upanishads. These are the Upanishads. Upanishad is derived from the Sanskrit word, upa which means near, nee means down, shad means sit, “sitting down near.” When the pupil sat down near the guru to acquire knowledge, it was called as Upanishad. It is also called as knowledge which removes ignorance. There are more than 200 Upanishads, but the Indian culture puts the figure of 108 and people have picked up and compiled Upanishad known as principal Upanishad. Radhakrishnan has picked up 18 Upanishads and written a Book “The principal Upanishads.” Next type of the Hindu scriptures, we have are the Smritis. The word Smriti means to hear. It means to remember. It means memory. Smritis are less sacred than the Shrutis. They are not the word of Almighty God and they have been written by Rishis and by human beings. They contain the creation of the universe, how a lifestyle should be lead by a human being on an individual level, on a community level, on a society level. They are also referred as the Dharm Shastra. There are various types of Smritis. We have the Puranas. Puranas means ancient. Maharishi Vyas, he has compiled the Puranas into 80 voluminous parts. This is one of the Puranas known as The Bhavishya Purana. Then, we have the Itihas, the epics, there are two epics, the Ramayan and the Mahabharat. The Ramayan deals with, as most of the Indians know with the story of Sri Ram and the Mahabharat deals with the story it is a feud, a fight between the cousins, the Pandavas and the Kawrawas. It also deals with the story of Sri Krishna. These are the 2 great epics. Then, we have the Bhagwat Gita. Bhagwat Gita is part of Mahabharath, it has 18 Chapters of Mahabharath from the Bheeshma Parv Chapter 25 to Chapter 42. It is an advice given by Sri Krishna to Arjun in the battle field. It is the most popular and most widely read sacred scriptures amongst all the Hindu scriptures. Then, we have the Manusmriti and various others. This was in brief regarding the sacred scriptures of Hinduism; but the most sacred, most authentic amongst all the scriptures is the Veda. If anything contradicts the Vedas, we have to follow the Veda.

What you have stated above is the standard outline of Hindu scriptures given in most books on the subject. What have you intended by quoting these?

 

[K.Venugopal]

As you are aware the most sacred amongst all the Islamic scriptures it is the glorious Qur’an. The glorious Qur’an is the last and final revelation of Allah, Almighty God which was revealed to the last and final messenger, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Glorious for the believer - maybe not so glorious for the non-believer.

The Qur’an says in Surah Ra’ad Chapter 13, Verse 38 “li-Kulli ajalin kitaab” in every age have we sent a revelation. There are several revelations of Almighty God sent on the face of the earth, by name, 4 are mentioned in the Qur’an; the Torah, the Zabur, the Ingil, and the Qur’an; but there are various others like Suhufi Ibrahim; but all the scriptures that came, all the revelations that was sent by Almighty God before the last and final revelation of the glorious Qur’an, they were only meant for a particular group of people; and the message which they preached was supposed to be followed only till a particular time period. But because Qur’an is the last and final revelation of Almighty God, it was not sent only for the Muslims or only for the Arabs, it was sent for the whole of humanity. Allah says in the Qur’an in Surah Hijr and in Surah Ibrahim Chapter #14 Verse #1, “Alif-Laaam Raa.” We have revealed this Book to thee, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) so that thou may leadest the human kind from darkness to light. Not only the Muslims or the Arabs, but the whole of humankind. The same message is repeated that the Qur’an is for the whole of human kind in several Verses that the Qur’an was revealed for the whole of humankind.The next scriptures in Islam are the Sahih Hadith. The authentic sayings and traditions of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). There are many; one of them is the Sahih Al-Bhukari. We also have the Sahih Muslim. The hadith of the Prophet, the authentic sayings and traditions are a commentary of the Qur’an. The complimentary to the Qur’an. They will never contradict the Qur’an. This was in brief regarding the scriptures in these two great religions.

Once more you have quoted standard text on the subject of Islamic scriptures. At no time have their validity been universally accepted and is unlikely to be universally accepted in the future either. Therefore to suggest that the Islamic scriptures are for all mankind or it replaces all other scriptures is nothing more than a believer’s over-enthusiasm.

 

[A-ManESL]

That is why the Ahmadiyas, for example, are not considered Muslims.

Btw it may interest you to know that in India they are considered Muslims as per a court judgement.

Regards.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Btw it may interest you to know that in India they are considered Muslims as per a court judgement.

I am proud that the Ahmadiyas are permitted to be who they want to be in India. This is in keeping with the Hindu tradition of permitting everyone their sacred space.

 

[K.Venugopal]

If anyone says something which matches with the scriptures we have to agree. If we give any example, if it matches with the scriptures, we have to take it. If I say something and if it does not match with the scripture; if I give an example which does not match with the scripture, we have to reject it.

Most of what are in scriptures are valid subject to believe or faith. Therefore if we lack faith or believe, then it is unlikely that we would accept most of what are in the scriptures.

Now that that is clear. If we ask the common Hindu that how many Gods does he believe in? some may say 3, some may say 100, some may say 1000, while others may say 33 crores, 330 millions. But if you ask a learned Hindu who is well Versed with his Hindu scriptures, he will tell you that in Hinduism you should believe and worship only one God.

Actually, Hinduism does not stop at believe in one God. It goes beyond the need to believe in God at all. But Dr. Zakir Naik, from whom you have quoted, did not tell his audience that Hinduism went beyond believe in God because that would not have fitted the thesis he wanted to sell that the Vedas spoke the language of the Quran! Moreover, Hindus differing on the number of Gods have to be understood in the context of the highest Hindu understanding – the understanding of non-duality where the oneness of existence is celebrated. From such a view point, all “Gods” are only the various expressions of the one ultimate truth and when some Hindus say there are millions of Gods and others give different figures, it only indicates that expressions of divinity can be innumerable and they can also be reduced in numbers as we tend to amalgamate principles till we reach the ultimate principle of non-duality.

But the common Hindu, he believes in a philosophy known as pantheism, everything is God. The common Hindu believes that the tree is God, the sun is God, the moon is God, the human being is God, the snake is God. What we Muslims believe is everything is God’s, everything belongs to God’s, ‘G’ ‘O’ ‘D’ with an apostrophe ‘s’; the tree belongs to God, the sun belongs to God, the moon belongs to God, the human being belongs to God, the snake belongs to God. So the major difference between the common Hindu and the common Muslim is that the common Hindu says everything are Gods, we Muslim say everything is God’s. The major difference is the apostrophe ‘s’.

The Islamic belief that everything is God’s is based on the belief that there is only one God and He is separate from His creation, whereas the Hindu belief that everything is God is based on the belief that there is only God or that all existence is one.

If we can solve this difference of apostrophe ‘s’, the Hindus and the Muslims will be united.

There is no need for a uniformity of belief for unity of Hindus and Muslims or whoever. Just acceptance of the principle that others also have the right to hold beliefs that are valid for them just as we do is all that is required.

How would you do it? As the Qur’an says taAAalawila kalimatin sawa-in baynana wabaynakum (come to common terms as in us and you) which is the first term? allanaAAbuda illa Allaha (that you worship none but Almighty God).

Let us come to terms, says the Quran, but let the terms be what the Quran sets out. A fine way to come to terms!

Let's try to understand what would the sacred scriptures of Hinduism have to speak about Almighty God. It is mentioned in the Chandogya Upanishad Chapter 6, Section 2, Verse 1; ekam evaditiyam God is only one without a second. It is a Sanskrit quotation.

When Vedas say that God is only one without a second, it is not saying that there is only one God. It is simply saying that all existence is one.

It is mentioned in Swethaswethara Upanishad, Chapter 6, Verse 9, Na casya kasuj janita na cadhipah, which means of him of Almighty God, there are no parents they have got no lord. Almighty God has no true father, he has no true mother, he has no true superior.

When Vedas talk about God not having father or mother, it is touching on the principle of non-creation of existence. Islam, which believes that God created everything, denies fathership of creation because it thinks that the Christian God became a father just like human beings become fathers! In usage of language, it is correct to regard the creator as father.

It is mentioned in the Swethaswethara Upanishad; Chapter 4, Verse 19 Na Tasya Pratima Asti of that God there is no Prathima, there is no likeness, there is no image, there is no picture, there is no photograph, there is no sculpture, there is no statue.

Dr. Zakir Naik unfortunately did not tell you that the Vedas are talking about non-duality. How could he have – this concept is not extant in Islam.

It is mentioned in Swethaswethara Upanishad; Chapter 4, Verse 20; no one can see the Almighty God and it is further mentioned in Bhagwat Gita Chapter 7, Verse 20; all those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires, they worship many Gods.

The Gita is pointing out to the gradation of understanding of spiritual truths.

If we refer Bhagwat Gita Chapter 7 Verse 20 and Bhagwat Gita Chapter 10 Verse 3, that they know me as the unborn not begotten, the supreme lord of the world. Amongst all the Hindu scriptures, the most sacred are the Vedas. It is mentioned in Yajur-Ved Chapter 32, Verse 3 Na Tasya Pratima Asti of that God there is no Prathima. Prathima as means likeness, image, picture, photo, sculpture, statue. It is further mentioned in Yajur-Ved Chapter 40 Verse 8 Almighty God is imageless and pure.

In the unfolding of reality, the Vedas reflects all manner of understanding, from the need of the masses for idols for worship to the advanced pilgrims of spirituality who only need to discover the truth within themselves. The Vedas do not subscribe to the Abrahamic view of one God being at war with all other Gods, including idols. That is why the Vedas are considered the fount of religious inclusiveness and not exclusiveness.

Atharva-Ved Book 20 Hymn 58 Manthra 3 Dev maha osi verily great is Almighty God; and amongst the Vedas, the most sacred is the Rig-Ved. It is mentioned in the Rig-Ved Book 1, Hymn 164, Manthra 46, ekkam sat vipra bhuda vidyante Truth is one, God is one, sages call him by various names. God is one but the saintly people call him by many names and there are no less than 33 names given to Almighty God in Rig-Ved Book 2 Hymn 1 alone. One of them is Brahma. The Brahma is called as the creator. If you translate creator into Arabic, it means khaaliq. We Muslims have got no objection if someone says that Almighty God is khaaliq or Creator, but if someone says this Almighty God has got 4 heads and on each head is a crown, you are giving an image to Almighty God. We Muslims take strong exception to it.

Muslims have the freedom not to worship or regard what they do not believe. However, to have a universal injunction that no one has the right to have such beliefs is nothing short of being intolerant.

More over, you are going against Swethaswethara Upanishad Chapter 4 Verse 19 which says Na Tasya Pratima Asti, of that God there are no images. The other name given to Almighty God in Rig-Ved, Book 2, Hymn 1, Verse 3 is Vishnu. Vishnu is called as the God who is the sustainer. If you translate Sustainer into Arabic, it is somewhat similar to Rabb. We Muslims have got no objection if someone calls Almighty God as Rabb or Sustainer, but if someone says he is Almighty God who has got 4 hands and giving an image to Almighty God, in one hand is the lotus, the second hand is the conch, traveling on the sea on the bed of snakes, we Muslims take strong objection to it.

Again, Muslims may disagree with Hindu concepts on these. But they cannot deny the Hindus or anyone else the right to have their own beliefs.

Moreover you are going against the Yajur-Ved, Chapter 32, Verse 3 which says Na Tasya Pratima Asti of that God there is no prathima. There is no likeness, there is no image, there is no picture, there is no statue, no sculpture.It is further mentioned in Rig-Ved Book 8, Hymn 1, Manthra 1 Ma chitanidi sansad worship him alone, one God, praise him alone. It is mentioned in Rig-Ved, Book 6, Hymn 45 Manthra 16, praise him alone, worship that one God and the Brahma Sutra of Hinduism is dvitiya naste neh na naste kinchan Bhagwan ek hi hai doosra nahi hai, nahi hai, nahi hai, zara bhi nahi hai. There is only one God not a second one, not at all, not at all, not in the least bit. So, if you read the Hindu scriptures, you shall understand the concept of God in Hinduism in the light of the sacred scriptures.

Hindus have a choice of scriptures and are not bound to any one scripture.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Let us understand the concept of God in Islam. The best reply anyone can give you from the scriptures is quote to you Surah Ikhlaas, Chapter 112 Verse 1 to 4 which says Qul Hu-wallaahu Ahad (say he is Allah one and only) Allaahus-Samad (Allah the absolute and eternal) Lam yalid, wa lam yuulad (he begets not nor is he begotten)

This particular verse in the Quran is a direct critique of Christian theology, where God is posited as father of Jesus. But creator can also be called father. If the Quran is denying God had sex with anyone, it is a meaningless denial because the Bible too does not suggest that God had sex with anyone.

walum yakul-la-Huu kufu-wan ahad (there is nothing like him). This is a 4-line definition of Allah subhaanawa thaala, of Almighty God given in the Qur’an. If any person says so and so candidate is God, if that candidate fits in this 4- line definition, we Muslims have got no objection in accepting that candidate as God.

It is quite egoistic of a Muslim to imagine that God can be defined only as per the Quran. This may be true of the Muslim God Allah, but other religions are not bound by it.

But obviously no 'being' will fit this candidate but God himself. This 'authenticity' test should be considered if any person or human claims to be God( which is the case in many occasions in history) My intention is to let all the Hindu and Muslim brothers and sisters understand the correct concept in these 2 great religions. My intention is not to hurt anyone’s feelings.

You have certainly not hurt my feelings by your understanding of Hinduism but I feel you have much to learn about Hinduism before you can properly judge it.

Since Almighty God is the creator of the human beings, he does not have to become a human being to know what is good or what is bad for the human being.

If Allah already knows everything, why did He say that He created man so that he can test man?

What does he do? He has to reveal an instruction manual; and the last and final instruction manual for the human beings is the glorious Qur’an.

I do not think the Quran is the work of God. It is the product of the meditations of Mohammad because it also contains verses that Mohammad revealed when he was probably not in the highest states of consciousness. That is why in the Quran Allah comes through as a violent persona.

No one can write a better book on Art of Living than the Creator himself. Therefore, I say that the Qur'an is the best book on Art of Living, it is the instruction manual for the human beings, the do’s and dont’s, how our life should be led. A quotation of the glorious Qur’an from Surah An’aam Chapter 6 Verse 108 which says that revile not those Gods who they worship besides Allah, lest in the ignorance they will revile Allah subhaana wa thaala.

It is not enough not to revile other religions for protection of your own religion. You have to accept the right of other religions to exist just as your own religion.

Peace be unto you

Peace be upon you too.

 

[Truthshallprevail]

Most of what are in scriptures are valid subject to believe or faith. Therefore if we lack faith or believe, then it is unlikely that we would accept most of what are in the scriptures.

This is a general fact. What you are saying I guess that it is not compulsory for a Hindu to believe in any particular/specific scripture. But is it not the Hindu belief that the Vedas are revelations from God.




Actually, Hinduism does not stop at believe in one God. It goes beyond the need to believe in God at all. But Dr. Zakir Naik, from whom you have quoted, did not tell his audience that Hinduism went beyond believe in God because that would not have fitted the thesis he wanted to sell that the Vedas spoke the language of the Quran! Moreover, Hindus differing on the number of Gods have to be understood in the context of the highest Hindu understanding – the understanding of non-duality where the oneness of existence is celebrated. From such a view point, all “Gods” are only the various expressions of the one ultimate truth and when some Hindus say there are millions of Gods and others give different figures, it only indicates that expressions of divinity can be innumerable and they can also be reduced in numbers as we tend to amalgamate principles till we reach the ultimate principle of non-duality.

Does the Hindu not believe that there is only one God , but believes in the worship of God in many forms? From what is clear to me non duality means one, singular.





The Islamic belief that everything is God’s is based on the belief that there is only one God and He is separate from His creation, whereas the Hindu belief that everything is God is based on the belief that there is only God or that all existence is one.
So you say that there is one God. The creator, can never be the creation. You are saying that God the creator, is also his creations? Or perhaps you mean that God exists in his creations? Or do you mean that God exists in the form of his creation?




There is no need for a uniformity of belief for unity of Hindus and Muslims or whoever. Just acceptance of the principle that others also have the right to hold beliefs that are valid for them just as we do is all that is required.
If there are similarities, then why not? Searching for similarities or differences for the matter are all part of education is it not?



When Vedas say that God is only one without a second, it is not saying that there is only one God. It is simply saying that all existence is one.
All existence(creation ie the universe) comes from God, the 'one' is God.



When Vedas talk about God not having father or mother, it is touching on the principle of non-creation of existence. Islam, which believes that God created everything, denies fathership of creation because it thinks that the Christian God became a father just like human beings become fathers! In usage of language, it is correct to regard the creator as father.
Usages will depend on the meanings given to it. In the bible it mentions that Jesus(peace be upon him) is the only begotten son of God. Begotten not made. Jesus is not like Adam in Cristian belief, Adam was created.(peace be upon them)



Dr. Zakir Naik unfortunately did not tell you that the Vedas are talking about non-duality. How could he have – this concept is not extant in Islam.
Again,please explain what non-duality means. From what is clear to me non duality means one, singular.





In the unfolding of reality, the Vedas reflects all manner of understanding, from the need of the masses for idols for worship to the advanced pilgrims of spirituality who only need to discover the truth within themselves. The Vedas do not subscribe to the Abrahamic view of one God being at war with all other Gods, including idols. That is why the Vedas are considered the fount of religious inclusiveness and not exclusiveness.
Correction.The Abrahamic view does not, subscribe to the beliefs above. The Vedas is the fount but not exclusive. If you say that the Vedas in the main source of reference but not the only source then i understand. But if other scriptures contradict the Vedas then what will your stand be? To follow the Vedas or the other references?

Muslims have the freedom not to worship or regard what they do not believe. However, to have a universal injunction that no one has the right to have such beliefs is nothing short of being intolerant.
I have said that we believe that there is no compulsion to religion and never in history do we force anyone into Islam. What he meant was as a Muslim, we do not give such images to God Almighty.

Hindus have a choice of scriptures and are not bound to any one scripture.

Again, is not the Vedas the ultimate authority. What if other scriptures contradict the Vedas.

I you believe that Hindus have a choice of scriptures and are not bound to the Vedas, then that is certainly your prerogative is it true for all Hindu schools? It is the Islamic belief that there should be no compulsion in religion. This is a forum for discussion and learning. We are supposed to be here to learn as much as we can of other from dialogs. Nevertheless , thank you for your reply.

Again, Muslims may disagree with Hindu concepts on these. But they cannot deny the Hindus or anyone else the right to have their own beliefs. [/COLOR][/FONT]
In no way do we deny anyone their rights to worship whatever they believe in.

 

[Truthshallprevail]

Truthshallprevail,
these are all off topic, when you copy paste from somewhere you should provide the link to the source too. And proselytizing is not allowed here.

source to the above articles
The Concept of God in Hinduism and Islam

Light Of Sacred Scriptures

Thank you for adding the sources for me. Discouraging dialogs defeat the purpose of this religious forum.

 

[Truthshallprevail]

This particular verse in the Quran is a direct critique of Christian theology, where God is posited as father of Jesus. But creator can also be called father. If the Quran is denying God had sex with anyone, it is a meaningless denial because the Bible too does not suggest that God had sex with anyone.
In the it Bible says that Jesus is the only begotten son of God. Begotten not made.



It is quite egoistic of a Muslim to imagine that God can be defined only as per the Quran. This may be true of the Muslim God Allah, but other religions are not bound by it.
There is no compulsion certainly.


You have certainly not hurt my feelings by your understanding of Hinduism but I feel you have much to learn about Hinduism before you can properly judge it.
Thank you. I will continue trying to understand Hinduism. Certainly I may say the same goes for you as well before you can judge Islam.

If Allah already knows everything, why did He say that He created man so that he can test man?
We humans have free will and the freedom to make choices. That is why, we believe that there is retribution in this life and the next. This based on the deeds and actions in this life . How else do you punish those who commit crimes toward humanity.


I do not think the Quran is the work of God. It is the product of the meditations of Mohammad because it also contains verses that Mohammad revealed when he was probably not in the highest states of consciousness. That is why in the Quran Allah comes through as a violent persona.
In the name of God, most gracious most merciful. This is not true and is a false statement. You may want to study on Islam if you are to know the miracle of the Qur'an,Islam and its evident gift to humanity.Note that these are all quoted from non muslims:
"The doctrine of brotherhood of Islam extends to all human beings, no matter what color, race or creed. Islam is the only religion which has been able to realize this doctrine in practice. Muslims wherever on
the world they are will recognize each other as brothers."
R. L. Mellema, Holland, Anthropologist, Writer and Scholar.

"The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammed. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than
he?"Lamartine, Historie de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol. 11 pp. 276-277

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level."
Michael H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc., 1978, p. 33.

"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue;
if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports." Bosworth Smith, MOHAMMAD AND
MOHAMMADANISM, London, 1874, p. 92.

I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his
fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted
every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.
Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924:


He was the most faithful protector of those he protected, the sweetest and most agreeable in conversation. Those who saw him were suddenly filled with reverence; those who came near him loved him; they who described him would say, "I have never seen his like either before or after." He was of great taciturnity, but when he spoke it was with emphasis and deliberation, and no one could forget what he said...
Lane-Poole in 'Speeches and Table Talk of the Prophet Muhammad':

His military triumphs awakened no pride nor vain glory as they would have done had they been effected by selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the same simplicity of manner and appearance as in the days of his adversity. So far from affecting regal state, he was displeased if, on entering a room, any unusual testimonial of respect was shown to him.
Washington Irving in 'Life of Muhammad,' New York, 1920:

“Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God’s word sensing his own inadequacy. But the Angel commanded ‘Read’. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God"."
“In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred and rumors of God 's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, ‘An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being'."
“At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: ‘If there are any among you who worshiped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you Worshiped, He lives for ever'.”
James Michener in ‘Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,’ Reader’s Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70:




It is not enough not to revile other religions for protection of your own religion. You have to accept the right of other religions to exist just as your own religion.

I apologize if I come across as reviling other religions. I can stop my dialog with you if you find me offensive. If am merely replying to your first statement on this thread and it lead to this I guess. Thank you and peace be with you.

 

[Truthshallprevail]

i think you being a muslim have no idea about the phrase 'la ilaha illallah', meaning there is no god but allah. If allah is god in arabic, then the phrase would become there is no god but god. Also there is another different 100 names for allah. Islam prohibites idol worship, at the same time islam is not matured enough to notice the same fault within. Additionally there exists many practices in islam which makes use of idols, like stoning satan rock.

You have certainly displayed your negative attitude in discussions and dialog on more than once occasion. I wonder why you even bother making such comments in the first place in a religious forum? Spending 5 minutes on Wikipedia will clearly do you some good to clarify and shed some light on your false statements.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Am waiting as to when we as humans understand that we are all part of the same *energy* and there is no differences between any form or no-form except perceptions which are based on *desires* and even the desire to be different in understanding of existence is a mind perception that creates the divide between existence and its component i.e. the form which we humans are and when divided there can never be *UNITY*; which is evident on these pages.
Friend Truthshallprevail can only state that truth always prevail when we the barrier remove our *selves*.
So far have never been able to get any truthful response as to whether *allah*is the label similar to god/brahman/tao or not and if not why not?
Await response.

Love & rgds

 

[A-ManESL]

Friends,

Am waiting as to when we as humans understand that we are all part of the same *energy* and there is no differences between any form or no-form except perceptions which are based on *desires* and even the desire to be different in understanding of existence is a mind perception that creates the divide between existence and its component i.e. the form which we humans are and when divided there can never be *UNITY*; which is evident on these pages.
Friend Truthshallprevail can only state that truth always prevail when we the barrier remove our *selves*.
So far have never been able to get any truthful response as to whether *allah*is the label similar to god/brahman/tao or not and if not why not?
Await response.

Love & rgds

Isnt the concept of God just a symbol? The important thing is that we feel that reality, whether through inside us as a part of us, or outside us as distinct. Initially all the religious traditions started as a particular path towards towards achieving that, later people got busy in theology.

Regards.

 

[zenzero]

Friend A-ManESL,

Isnt the concept of God just a symbol?

Why the doubt?? cause any doubt shows the MIND activity and since it is a symbol why is the understanding that all labels like God/Allah/Tao/Brahman are all the same??

The mind needs to be transcended to realize IT!
If not all arguments are futile regards differences between them.

Love & rgds

 

[K.Venugopal]

This is a general fact. What you are saying I guess that it is not compulsory for a Hindu to believe in any particular/specific scripture. But is it not the Hindu belief that the Vedas are revelations from God.

Hindus are free to hold beliefs as they wish. These beliefs are not binding on them unless they wish it to be so. There is no tyranny of scriptures in Hinduism, if I may say so. If the Hindus say the Vedas are from God, it simply means that truth is always abiding and the masters from age to age access the truth through meditation and present it to the world as scriptures. There is no concept of the last scripture in Hinduism.

Does the Hindu not believe that there is only one God , but believes in the worship of God in many forms?

Hindus have freedom of worship according to their understanding or preference in matters spiritual. Hindus believe in the oneness of existence and its manifold expressions. This does not translate to believe in one God. Hindus have not reduced God to a countable object.

From what is clear to me non duality means one, singular.

Non-duality does not mean one. It simply means not two. In talking about non-duality, the teachings are not talking about external or objective reality. It is talking about our mind that sees duality and the potential of the mind to move beyond this state so that the mind achieves freedom from the like-dislike dichotomy. It is in such a state that we awaken to wholesomeness and to our spiritual legacy.

So you say that there is one God.

There is a big difference between saying that there is only one God and there is only God.

The creator, can never be the creation.

For those who believe in the separation, they can never be one. But not all religions believe that there is a creator separate from his creation

. You are saying that God the creator, is also his creations? Or perhaps you mean that God exists in his creations? Or do you mean that God exists in the form of his creation?

Saying that the creator and creation is one is saying all the three of your postulations.

If there are similarities, then why not? Searching for similarities or differences for the matter are all part of education is it not?

Searching for similarities and differences are fine. But attempting to steamroll everything into one homogenous entity may not be beneficial for humanity.

All existence(creation ie the universe) comes from God, the 'one' is God.

God is nothing other than life and all life is indivisible.

Usages will depend on the meanings given to it. In the bible it mentions that Jesus(peace be upon him) is the only begotten son of God. Begotten not made. Jesus is not like Adam in Cristian belief, Adam was created.(peace be upon them)

Are you saying the Bible teaches that God had sex with the mother of Jesus?

Again,please explain what non-duality means. From what is clear to me non duality means one, singular

.Non-duality does not mean one – it simply means “not-two”. The non-dual teachings address the minds of men and women and suggest that the source of most of our problems is due to a fragmented mind and the solution is to rediscover our wholesome mind.

Correction.The Abrahamic view does not, subscribe to the beliefs above.

Clearly, the Abrahamic Gods each cannot stand the idea that mankind can worship another in the name of God.(I, your God, am a jealous God.)

The Vedas is the fount but not exclusive. If you say that the Vedas in the main source of reference but not the only source then i understand.

I said the Vedas are a fount of inclusiveness, that is, they are able to include in their vision other view points. This is not true of the Quran.

But if other scriptures contradict the Vedas then what will your stand be?

Having a different view point is not necessarily tantamount to contradiction. Hinduism has the intrinsic capacity to reconcile even contradictory view points.

To follow the Vedas or the other references?

This is left to individual preference, subject to non-violence.

 

[K.Venugopal]

I have said that we believe that there is no compulsion to religion and never in history do we force anyone into Islam.

What does Allah mean when he said in the Qur'an (3:85) - "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers." If this is not compulsion in religion, what is?

What he meant was as a Muslim, we do not give such images to God Almighty.

That is fine. But just because Muslims do not do that, that does not mean such a right is forfeited to everyone else.

Again, is not the Vedas the ultimate authority. What if other scriptures contradict the Vedas.

There is no such concept in Hinduism as the Vedas necessarily being the ultimate authority. Vedas have its unique position in Hinduism due to a variety of reasons but the Vedas itself does not insist that it be taken as the last word. The Vedas begin with the prayer, “Let noble thoughts come to us from all sides.”

I you believe that Hindus have a choice of scriptures and are not bound to the Vedas, then that is certainly your prerogative is it true for all Hindu schools?

Of course - this freedom is the defining trait of Hinduism.

It is the Islamic belief that there should be no compulsion in religion.

This is contradicted by : Qur'an (3:85) - "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

In no way do we deny anyone their rights to worship whatever they believe in.

This obviously is not Allah’s opinion. For the third time in this post, I am quoting: Qur'an (3:85) - "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

In the it Bible says that Jesus is the only begotten son of God. Begotten not made.

Begotten in the context of God does not mean begotten through sex. It would be equal to saying because the Quran refers to Allah as “He”, it means that Allah is a man. We know this is not so.

There is no compulsion certainly.

For the 4th time today, let me quote: Qur'an (3:85) - "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

Thank you. I will continue trying to understand Hinduism. Certainly I may say the same goes for you as well before you can judge Islam.

I accept I have a lot more to learn about Islam. Meanwhile, I hope I am not sounding judgemental on Islam. Just my opinion at times, that’s all.

We humans have free will and the freedom to make choices. That is why, we believe that there is retribution in this life and the next. This based on the deeds and actions in this life . How else do you punish those who commit crimes toward humanity.

If God made humans in such a way that humans are capable of committing crimes towards humanity, then that responsibility is God’s and He needs to punish Himself first.

In the name of God, most gracious most merciful. This is not true and is a false statement. You may want to study on Islam if you are to know the miracle of the Qur'an,Islam and its evident gift to humanity.

There is no miracle in the Quran that is not there in numerous other scriptures. Of course, since each scripture is unique, there would be some things that are unique to the Quran. But that does not make the Quran the only miracle inherited by mankind.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Note that these are all quoted from non muslims:
"The doctrine of brotherhood of Islam extends to all human beings, no matter what color, race or creed. Islam is the only religion which has been able to realize this doctrine in practice. Muslims wherever on
the world they are will recognize each other as brothers."
R. L. Mellema, Holland, Anthropologist, Writer and Scholar.

This writer clearly says that the brotherhood of Islam is one of believers. So how does it extend to all human beings?

"The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammed. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than
he?"Lamartine, Historie de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol. 11 pp. 276-277

I do not want to contest the opinion that Mohammad was a great man or even that he was the greatest. In many ways no doubt he was. But there were also others who were great in other ways. Nevertheless if on certain criterion it is decided that Mohammad is the greatest, why should I grudge that opinion? Personally, I love the personality of Mohammad.

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level."
Michael H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc., 1978, p. 33.

I am happy that Mohammad is considered overall the greatest, but it cannot be denied that in some aspects he was somewhat notorious. Like his multi-fangled marriages, for example.

"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue;
if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports." Bosworth Smith, MOHAMMAD AND
MOHAMMADANISM, London, 1874, p. 92.

Very impressive.

I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his
fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted
every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.
Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924:

During Mohammad’s time, Islam was most certainly spread by the sword. Afterwards, the only place that Islam spread without violence was probably Indonesia. But this was because Indonesia was a Hindu country at that time and Hindus have a tradition of accepting the new without resistance. But even today Indonesia has not left everything Hindu.

He was the most faithful protector of those he protected, the sweetest and most agreeable in conversation. Those who saw him were suddenly filled with reverence; those who came near him loved him; they who described him would say, "I have never seen his like either before or after." He was of great taciturnity, but when he spoke it was with emphasis and deliberation, and no one could forget what he said...
Lane-Poole in 'Speeches and Table Talk of the Prophet Muhammad':

No doubt Mohammad was a great personality.

His military triumphs awakened no pride nor vain glory as they would have done had they been effected by selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the same simplicity of manner and appearance as in the days of his adversity. So far from affecting regal state, he was displeased if, on entering a room, any unusual testimonial of respect was shown to him.
Washington Irving in 'Life of Muhammad,' New York, 1920:

Alas, he was not sensitive enough to realize that he had caused much bloodshed in the name of religion.

“Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God’s word sensing his own inadequacy. But the Angel commanded ‘Read’. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God"."
“In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred and rumors of God 's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, ‘An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being'."

A very pragmatic Mohammad.

“At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: ‘If there are any among you who worshiped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you Worshiped, He lives for ever'.”

A very wise successor. But strangely even today Muslims are unable to utter Mohammad’s name without saying PBUH. Though you would deny it, I think this is a form of worship.

James Michener in ‘Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,’ Reader’s Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70:

It is a fact that all the great things that you have quoted about Mohammad can be said with equal or greater truth about Jesus, Buddha and Krishna. Just as Islam is one of the many religions, Mohammad was one among the many great people – maybe the greatest in some estimates but not all.

I apologize if I come across as reviling other religions. I can stop my dialog with you if you find me offensive. If am merely replying to your first statement on this thread and it lead to this I guess. Thank you and peace be with you.

I think we can continue this dialogue till we start repeating ourselves. Please indicate when I start repeating myself. Peace be with you too.

 

[Truthshallprevail]

What does Allah mean when he said in the Qur'an (3:85) - "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers." If this is not compulsion in religion, what is?
Dear Brother K.Venugopal,
Thank you for your responses. Your kind words and intelligent approach are much appreciated. On the verses “let there be no compulsion in religion” and “And whoso seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him….”, allow me to explain. To analyze any verse in any scripture, we shall have to at the very minimum analyze the verses before and after the particular verse we want to analyze.

I mentioned the verse “let there be no compulsion in religion” :

[2:256] Allah — there is no God but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that will intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them; and they encompass nothing of His knowledge except what He pleases. His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth; and the care of them burdens Him not; and He is the High, the Great.

[2:257] There should be no compulsion in religion. Surely, right has become distinct from wrong; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress, and believes in Allah, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.


And for the verse you mentioned:

[3:80] It is not possible for a man that Allah should give him the Book and dominion and prophethood, and then he should say to men: ‘Be servants to me and not to Allah;’ buthe would say: ‘Be solely devoted to the Lord because you teach the Book and because you study it.’

[3:81] Nor is it possible for him that he should bid you take the angels and the Prophets for Lords. Would he enjoin you to disbelieve after you have submitted to God?

[3:82] And remember the time when Allah took a covenant from the people through the Prophets, saying: ‘Whatever I give you of the Book and Wisdom and then there comes to you a Messenger, fulfilling that which is with you, you shall believe in him and help him.’And He said: ‘Do you agree, and do you accept the responsibility which I lay upon you in this matter?’ They said, ‘We agree;’ He said, ‘Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses.’

[3:83] Now whoso turns away after this, then, surely, those are the transgressors.

[3:84] Do they seek a religion other than Allah’s, while to Him submits whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned?

[3:85] Say, ‘We believe in Allah and in that which has been revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus and other Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit.’

[3:86] And whoso seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the losers.

[3:87] How shall Allah guide a people who have disbelieved after believing and who had borne witness that the Messenger was true and to whom clear proofs had come? And Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

I think you will be clear on the matter now. This verse is with particular reference to those who have received the message/truth and believed. The Muslim does not claim to have a religion peculiar to himself.Islam is not a sect or an ethnic religion. In its view all Religion is one, for the truth is one. It was the religion preached by all the earlier prophets . It was the truth thought by all the inspired books. In essence it amounts to a consciousness of the will and plan of God and a joyful submission to that will and plan. If anyone wants a religion other that that, then is he not false to his own nature? As he is false to God's will and plan? If one has renounced guidance, how can he expect guidance?




Begotten in the context of God does not mean begotten through sex. It would be equal to saying because the Quran refers to Allah as “He”, it means that Allah is a man. We know this is not so.
In the Bible, it says that Jesus is the only begotten son of God. Begotten not made. Jesus is different from Adam, Moses and Abraham(peace be upon them). They were not begotten , they were made. But Jesus is not like that, he is the only begotten son of God. This is what it says in the Bible which we believed have altered by man. All Muslims believe that Jesus(peace be upon him) is one of the mightiest messengers of God. But he is only a messenger , he is not God or the son of God. This is the major difference in our beliefs.


If God made humans in such a way that humans are capable of committing crimes towards humanity, then that responsibility is God’s and He needs to punish Himself first.
Do you believe that the universe was created without a purpose? If you understand the gift of free will and realize the magnitude of human responsibility and believe in God and the day of judgement, you will understand that this life is but a journey to the hereafter. We will be judged based on our actions and deeds. We believe that if we search for God and the truth with an open heart , he will guide us to this truth.

There is no miracle in the Quran that is not there in numerous other scriptures. Of course, since each scripture is unique, there would be some things that are unique to the Quran. But that does not make the Quran the only miracle inherited by mankind.

Definition of a miracle:
"An event that appears so inexplicable by the laws of nature, that it is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God."
"A person, thing or event that excites admiring awe."
"An act beyond human power, an impossibility."

(Al-Qur'an) "As a miracle of purity of style, of wisdom and of
truth, it is the one miracle claimed by Mohammed, his standing
miracle he called it, and a miracle indeed it is!"
REV. BOSWORTH-SMITH

"One other circumstance we must not forget: That he had no school learning; of the thing we call school learning none at all”
Thomas Carlyle

Another Englishman - A.J. Arberry, in the preface to his English translation of
the Holy Qur'an - says:
"WHENEVER I HEAR THE QUR'AN CHANTED, IT IS AS THOUGH I AM
LISTENING TO MUSIC, UNDERNEATH THE FLOWING MELODY, THERE IS
SOUNDING ALL THE TIME THE INSISTENT BEAT OF A DRUM, IT IS LIKE
THE BEATING OF MY HEART."

Marmaduke Picktall in the foreward to his translation of the Holy Qur'an,
describes it as:
"THAT INIMITABLE SYMPHONY, THE VERY SOUND OF WHICH MOVE MEN TO TEARS AND ECSTASY."

Numerous scientific miracles explained in the Quran before the invention of telescopes,microscopes, submarines and space exploration:

"THE ABOVE OBSERVATION (HIS OWN THESIS) MAKES THE HYPOTHESIS ADVANCED BY THOSE WHO SEE MUHAMMAD AS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR'AN UNTENABLE. HOW COULD A MAN, FROM BEING ILLITERATE, BECOME THE MOST IMPORTANT AUTHOR, IN TERMS OF LITERARY MERITS, IN THE WHOLE OF ARABIC LITERATURE? "HOW COULD HE THEN PRONOUNCE TRUTHS OF A SCIENTIFIC NATURE THAT NO OTHER HUMAN-BEING COULD POSSIBLY HAVE DEVELOPED AT THAT TIME, AND ALL THIS WITHOUT ONCE MAKING THE SLIGHTEST ERROR IN HIS PRONOUNCEMENT ON THE SUBJECT?"
See "The Bible, the Qur'an and Science" p. 125
By Maurice Bucaille