Is it true the Kabbha was a Hindu temple?

[Truthshallprevail]

Further to my response in the previous page(please read that one first pg 30),

During Mohammad’s time, Islam was most certainly spread by the sword. Afterwards, the only place that Islam spread without violence was probably Indonesia. But this was because Indonesia was a Hindu country at that time and Hindus have a tradition of accepting the new without resistance. But even today Indonesia has not left everything Hindu.

This is not what history says and there is much you need to understand of the situation at the time of the holy prophet. Islam was not spread by the sword as you think and this is clearly mentioned in history. There are millions of Jews and Christians in Arabia who are practicing till this very day who have lived and thrived under Muslim rule and the Caliphate. This is testimony to the fact. See the you tube link
[youtube]M9OIqy6md9w[/youtube]
YouTube - Rabbi Weiss, Outside Annapolis Peace Confab, Rips Zionism

The image of Islam have been tarnished by the Zionists and the media and this is a known fact. There are many rules and conditions for war and this is clearly mentioned in the Qur'an.
Quoting from a website:
Some people might be wondering that if Islam indeed advocates such an approach, then what is all this we hear about jihad? How can we explain the warfare that the Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, and his Companions waged against the pagans? The answer to this is that jihad in Islamic Law can be waged for a number of reasons, but compelling people to accept Islam is simply not one of them. As for conversion, this is to be done peacefully by disseminating the Message with the written and spoken word.
Once people have heard the Message without obstruction or hindrance and the proof has been established upon them, then the duty of the Muslims is done. Those who wish to believe are free to do so and those who prefer to disbelieve are likewise free to do so.
Even when the Muslims are compelled to fight and then, as a consequence, subdue the land, their duty thereafter is to establish God’s law in the land and uphold justice for all people, Muslim and non-Muslim. It is not their right to coerce their subjects to accept Islam against their will. Non-Muslims under Muslim rule must be allowed to remain on their own faith and must be allowed to practice the rights of their faith, though they will be expected to respect the laws of the land.
Had the purpose of jihad been to force the unbelievers to accept Islam, the Prophet would never have commanded the Muslims to refrain from hostilities if the enemy relented. He would not have prohibited the killing of women and children. However, this is exactly what he did.
Source : Let There Be No Compulsion in Religion - The Religion of Islam

"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet." (Bukhari, Muslim)
"He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgement." (Bukhari)
"Anyone who kills a Non-Muslim who had become our ally will not smell the fragrance of Paradise." (Bukhari)

“History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical
Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of
the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd
myths that historians have ever repeated.”
De Lacy O’Leary: Islam at the Crossroads P 8


Peace be with you

 

[K.Venugopal]

Dear Brother K.Venugopal,
Thank you for your responses. Your kind words and intelligent approach are much appreciated.

Thank you. I also appreciate your indefatigable approach to the debate.

On the verses “let there be no compulsion in religion” and “And whoso seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him….”, allow me to explain. To analyze any verse in any scripture, we shall have to at the very minimum analyze the verses before and after the particular verse we want to analyze.

I mentioned the verse “let there be no compulsion in religion” :

[2:256] Allah — there is no God but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that will intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them; and they encompass nothing of His knowledge except what He pleases. His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth; and the care of them burdens Him not; and He is the High, the Great.

[2:257] There should be no compulsion in religion. Surely, right has become distinct from wrong; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress, and believes in Allah, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.

And for the verse you mentioned:

[3:80] It is not possible for a man that Allah should give him the Book and dominion and prophethood, and then he should say to men: ‘Be servants to me and not to Allah;’ buthe would say: ‘Be solely devoted to the Lord because you teach the Book and because you study it.’

[3:81] Nor is it possible for him that he should bid you take the angels and the Prophets for Lords. Would he enjoin you to disbelieve after you have submitted to God?

[3:82] And remember the time when Allah took a covenant from the people through the Prophets, saying: ‘Whatever I give you of the Book and Wisdom and then there comes to you a Messenger, fulfilling that which is with you, you shall believe in him and help him.’And He said: ‘Do you agree, and do you accept the responsibility which I lay upon you in this matter?’ They said, ‘We agree;’ He said, ‘Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses.’

[3:83] Now whoso turns away after this, then, surely, those are the transgressors.

[3:84] Do they seek a religion other than Allah’s, while to Him submits whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned?

[3:85] Say, ‘We believe in Allah and in that which has been revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus and other Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit.’

[3:86] And whoso seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the losers.

[3:87] How shall Allah guide a people who have disbelieved after believing and who had borne witness that the Messenger was true and to whom clear proofs had come? And Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

I think you will be clear on the matter now. This verse is with particular reference to those who have received the message/truth and believed.

Can you please clarify how the verses before and after [3:86] “And whoso seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the losers” give it a meaning that is not directly implied by the verse? The long and short of it is that Allah does not accept any religion except Islam – the religion delineated in the Quran. He is not saying He will accept other religions from non-Muslims.

 

[K.Venugopal]

The Muslim does not claim to have a religion peculiar to himself.

I thought all along that this is what makes for the Muslims the uniqueness of Islam – it is a religion unlike any other religion and a religion that is greatest of all religions and the only religion that is now valid.

Islam is not a sect or an ethnic religion. In its view all Religion is one, for the truth is one.

What do you mean by “all Religion is one”?

It was the religion preached by all the earlier prophets . It was the truth thought by all the inspired books. In essence it amounts to a consciousness of the will and plan of God and a joyful submission to that will and plan.

The various religions may generically be considered as one religion but does this make Islam the same as the other religions? I think there is a dishonest play of words between the words “Din” and “Islam”.

If anyone wants a religion other that that, then is he not false to his own nature?

If Islam is a religion that I do not want, how does this make me false to my nature?

As he is false to God's will and plan?

“God” has come to be a generic word and when we talk of God’s will and plan, each of us can understand it as the will and plan outlined by God in our religion. But in your case when you use the word God you mean Allah and therefore the will and plan of God would be as outlined in the Quran. How can that will and plan be valid for me, who is a non-believer of Islam?

If one has renounced guidance, how can he expect guidance?

We have renounced guidance from a certain religion or it’s God, but that does not mean that we have no other source of guidance that is valid for us.

In the Bible, it says that Jesus is the only begotten son of God. Begotten not made. Jesus is different from Adam, Moses and Abraham(peace be upon them). They were not begotten , they were made. But Jesus is not like that, he is the only begotten son of God. This is what it says in the Bible which we believed have altered by man. All Muslims believe that Jesus(peace be upon him) is one of the mightiest messengers of God. But he is only a messenger , he is not God or the son of God.

Unless the phrase “son of God” is seen as a metaphor, you will be reading into the phrase meanings that were never intended. It is strange that Islam thinks such things as idols are a threat to the Almighty God and usage of the phrase “son of God” means God had sex.

This is the major difference in our beliefs.

Do you believe that the universe was created without a purpose?

While you use the words creator and creation and posit that the purpose of creation is the purpose set by the creator, I would prefer to say “existence” and would define the purpose of existence as simply to exist (the purpose of life is to live).

 

[K.Venugopal]

If you understand the gift of free will and realize the magnitude of human responsibility and believe in God and the day of judgement, you will understand that this life is but a journey to the hereafter. We will be judged based on our actions and deeds. We believe that if we search for God and the truth with an open heart , he will guide us to this truth.

Definition of a miracle:
"An event that appears so inexplicable by the laws of nature, that it is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God."
"A person, thing or event that excites admiring awe."
"An act beyond human power, an impossibility."

(Al-Qur'an) "As a miracle of purity of style, of wisdom and of
truth, it is the one miracle claimed by Mohammed, his standing
miracle he called it, and a miracle indeed it is!"
REV. BOSWORTH-SMITH

"One other circumstance we must not forget: That he had no school learning; of the thing we call school learning none at all”
Thomas Carlyle

Mohammad may not have known how to read and write but obviously he learnt a lot even without going to school, which is why he was a successful businessman before he took to spirituality.

Another Englishman - A.J. Arberry, in the preface to his English translation of

the Holy Qur'an - says:
"WHENEVER I HEAR THE QUR'AN CHANTED, IT IS AS THOUGH I AM
LISTENING TO MUSIC, UNDERNEATH THE FLOWING MELODY, THERE IS
SOUNDING ALL THE TIME THE INSISTENT BEAT OF A DRUM, IT IS LIKE
THE BEATING OF MY HEART."

Such praises have been heaped on all scriptures by the best of writers.

Marmaduke Picktall in the foreward to his translation of the Holy Qur'an,

describes it as:
"THAT INIMITABLE SYMPHONY, THE VERY SOUND OF WHICH MOVE MEN TO TEARS AND ECSTASY."

Wasn’t Mohammad a great orator? So where is the miracle of great literature coming out of a great orator? In any case the Quran did not come out of Mohammad’s mind but from his higher consciousness when he went into meditation, as is the case with all the initiators of religions.

Numerous scientific miracles explained in the Quran before the invention of telescopes,microscopes, submarines and space exploration:

"THE ABOVE OBSERVATION (HIS OWN THESIS) MAKES THE HYPOTHESIS ADVANCED BY THOSE WHO SEE MUHAMMAD AS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR'AN UNTENABLE. HOW COULD A MAN, FROM BEING ILLITERATE, BECOME THE MOST IMPORTANT AUTHOR, IN TERMS OF LITERARY MERITS, IN THE WHOLE OF ARABIC LITERATURE? "HOW COULD HE THEN PRONOUNCE TRUTHS OF A SCIENTIFIC NATURE THAT NO OTHER HUMAN-BEING COULD POSSIBLY HAVE DEVELOPED AT THAT TIME, AND ALL THIS WITHOUT ONCE MAKING THE SLIGHTEST ERROR IN HIS PRONOUNCEMENT ON THE SUBJECT?"

“How” is a very good question here. But the fact is that he did it. My explanation is that he accessed his higher consciousness and was able to do it and this has been the capacity of all spiritual luminaries, including the illiterate ones. But if you wish to believe that God wrote it, there is no harm because that is your rightful belief.

See "The Bible, the Qur'an and Science" p. 125

By Maurice Bucaille


This is not what history says and there is much you need to understand of the situation at the time of the holy prophet. Islam was not spread by the sword as you think and this is clearly mentioned in history. There are millions of Jews and Christians in Arabia who are practicing till this very day who have lived and thrived under Muslim rule and the Caliphate. This is testimony to the fact. See the you tube link

The image of Islam have been tarnished by the Zionists and the media and this is a known fact. There are many rules and conditions for war and this is clearly mentioned in the Qur'an.

Quoting from a website:
Some people might be wondering that if Islam indeed advocates such an approach, then what is all this we hear about jihad? How can we explain the warfare that the Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, and his Companions waged against the pagans? The answer to this is that jihad in Islamic Law can be waged for a number of reasons, but compelling people to accept Islam is simply not one of them. As for conversion, this is to be done peacefully by disseminating the Message with the written and spoken word.
Once people have heard the Message without obstruction or hindrance and the proof has been established upon them, then the duty of the Muslims is done. Those who wish to believe are free to do so and those who prefer to disbelieve are likewise free to do so.
Even when the Muslims are compelled to fight and then, as a consequence, subdue the land, their duty thereafter is to establish God’s law in the land and uphold justice for all people, Muslim and non-Muslim. It is not their right to coerce their subjects to accept Islam against their will. Non-Muslims under Muslim rule must be allowed to remain on their own faith and must be allowed to practice the rights of their faith, though they will be expected to respect the laws of the land.
Had the purpose of jihad been to force the unbelievers to accept Islam, the Prophet would never have commanded the Muslims to refrain from hostilities if the enemy relented. He would not have prohibited the killing of women and children. However, this is exactly what he did.
Source : Let There Be No Compulsion in Religion - The Religion of Islam

There is talk in the Quran about ambushing and slaying after the month of fasting is over. This proves that sword was an element in the spread of Islam. If you say millions of Christians and Jews are still alive, this is in spite of the Quranic injunction and not because of it.

"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet." (Bukhari, Muslim)

"He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgement." (Bukhari)
"Anyone who kills a Non-Muslim who had become our ally will not smell the fragrance of Paradise." (Bukhari)

Mercy for those who surrender.

“History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical

Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of
the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd
myths that historians have ever repeated.” De Lacy O’Leary: Islam at the Crossroads P 8

Non-Muslims were always too many for the Muslims to subdue. But where Muslims had the advantage of numbers, there non-Muslims were treated as second class citizens.

Peace be with you

Peace be with you too.

 

[Truthshallprevail]

Thank you. I also appreciate your indefatigable approach to the debate.

Can you please clarify how the verses before and after [3:86] “And whoso seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the losers” give it a meaning that is not directly implied by the verse? The long and short of it is that Allah does not accept any religion except Islam – the religion delineated in the Quran. He is not saying He will accept other religions from non-Muslims.

Dear Brother K Venugopal,
I apologize if I may be contradicting there. I was trying to answer your question on the verse. When we say no compulsion in religion we mean is that we cannot force any person to except or embrace Islam. In the sight of God only Islam is accepted. Islam teaches us to spread Islam by way of kindness, reason, the Qur'an and the perfection of manners to the non-Muslim. Not by forcing others.

If you study Islam you will find that in the first 10 years in Arabia(Makah) of the first stages of Islam,when the Muslims were persecuted and tortured by the Quraish not a single Muslim renounced the messenger and all of them displayed patience in the face of immense torture and poverty. This is true faith. Nobody can force any soul to bear torture with patience or endurance but only faith in truth itself.

Yes,ultimately we believe that the religion accepted in the sight of Allah is Islam. Islam means peace acquired by submitting your will to Almighty God. Many people have misconception that Islam is a new religion, which came into existence 1400 years ago and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the founder of this religion. In fact, Islam is there since time immemorial. Since man set foot on the earth, and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is not the founder of this religion but he is the last and final messenger sent by Almighty God, the last and final Prophet. This is why we share the prophets of the Jews and the Christians and we also believe in the original Torah and Injil (unaltered version).

I will quote from a reliable website on the verse you mentioned to better answer your question:
Allaah sent Messengers to every nation, that they might worship Him and shun false deities. The last nation is this ummah, and the last Messenger is Muhammad (peace be upon him). Allaah sent him for the whole of mankind, the entire world, and thus abrogated the previous laws and made this religion the best and most perfect and complete. Hence it is obligatory for everyone to enter this religion, for Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islaam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers." [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

On this basis, the fate of one who says "I believe in the idea of One God, but I do not want to be a Muslim, or I do not want to follow the last Revelation or the last Prophet," is clear.

Furthermore, the fate of an atheist, who rejects even the belief in God, is even clearer and more evident.

Finally, I hope that the matter is now clearer to you. I ask Allaah to guide us all to the truth and help us to follow it, for He is the best Supporter and Helper

source : Islam QA

Peace Brother Lets hope that we will all be guided to the truth

 

[A-ManESL]

At this point I wish to say that I am a Muslim and I do not agree with many things stated above:

1. The interpretation of Islam as a religion is different from the universal meaning of Islam. The universal meaning implies living in surrender and harmony to the Unity(wahdat). In that sense it may be the Muslims are not the only people following Islam.

2. When the Quran uses the word Islam in the quoted verse 3:85, it means surrender, and not the religion per se. In fact, this is how the word is nearly always referred to in the Quran.
"And whoever follows other than surrender as a system, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers." 3:85 (Quran)

3.The word religion is in an incorrect translation of the word deen in the Quran, which should mean way of life. (Source). The idea is the same as in Santana dharma.

4.Nowhere are all other religions invalidated. That is what many preachers tell Muslims, but this is not there in hadith and Quran. The clearest such verse is
"Those who believe and those who are Jews, Christians and Sabeans, [in fact] anyone who believes in God and the Last Day, and acts honorably will receive their earnings from their Lord: no fear will lie upon them nor need they feel saddened"-2:62. Also see 5:69. There are many hadith which point in the same direction. Since Christianity, Judaism etc was present in the Arabia in the 7th C, and the people could understand talk of it, they were directly mentioned by name in the Quran but it is evident, that verses 2:62,5:69 apply to all true religions.

5.Along with above mentioned religions in the verse in point 4, such as Christianity etc, when a Zoroastrian man was encountered by the Prophet, in his lifetime, he instructed that he has the same status as of the above mentioned religion followers. (Source) (Many Muslim scholars gave the same status to Hindus when Islam came to India, but I'll prefer to stick to Quran and hadith here.)

6.The Quran itself says that the description of God through its verses is incomplete, and indeed the concept of God is such that it cannot be contained in human thought. ("And if all the trees on Earth were made into pens, and the ocean were supplied by seven more oceans, the words of God would not run out. God is Noble, Wise."-31:27)

7.The Quran also says that God's message was spread all over earth(10:48) and always in a way which was in the context of the people living there, in their language. (14:4)

8.Many preachers tell Muslims tell that the words of the Bible have been changed. There is no direct evidence of this in the Quran and the hadith. The Quran only says that misinterpretations and deliberate suppressing of meanings were done by some people for their own ends through word of mouth.(3:78) The Prophet asked the people not to judge the words of the Bible, not to say it is false, not to say it is true.(Abu Dawood)

All true religions are de-jure religions and not merely to be tolerated. Those who are following them in their truest sense are therefore following Islam (and if we continue to take the full meaning of words, also following Sanatan dharma etc).

Regards

 

[nameless]

"And whoever follows other than surrender as a system, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers." 3:85

so buddha is a loser since he did not surrendered to anyone?

quran demands to surrender only before allah, and no other god. It is not just the system of surrender.

""For We assuredly sent amongst every people a prophet, (with the command) worship me and avoid false gods ".

“We did not send the Messenger before you without revealing to him: ‘none has the right to be worshipped except I, therefore worship Me.’”

 

[A-ManESL]

so buddha is a loser since he did not surrendered to anyone?

quran demands to surrender only before allah, and no other god. It is not just the system of surrender.

""For We assuredly sent amongst every people a prophet, (with the command) worship me and avoid false gods ".

“We did not send the Messenger before you without revealing to him: ‘none has the right to be worshipped except I, therefore worship Me.’”

No. You are misunderstanding...Those verses have to be understood in context.

The concept of nirvana is but one way of approaching that Reality(cf point 6 in my previous post), which is symbolised by God in the Quran. Gautam Buddha took that particular approach towards the Reality. The worship of God or Unity pervading the universe is but a metaphor for developing the organic link of man with the Reality in the verse. Surrender means not only surrender of ego, but to become harmonious with the prevading Unity. In a sense the word surrender may be replaced by peace. Like everything in the universe(other then man) is in a state of Islam as it is doing its functions.

The seven heavens extol His limitless glory, and the earth, and all that they contain; and there is not a single thing but extols His limitless glory and praise: but you [O men] fail to grasp the manner of their glorifying Him! Verily, He is forbearing, much-forgiving!-17:44

If you wish to understand this concept of Unity further I recommend you pick up a good book about Islam.

Regarding the approach of Muslim scholars regarding Buddha, from the book "Sufi essays" by Hossein Nasr,

Not only have some of the most authoritative Muslim scholars during the Mughal period called the Hindus Ahl-e-Kitab, belonging to the chain of prophets preceding Islam and begining with Adam, but also some of the Muslim Indian commentators have considered the prophet Dhu'l-i-Kifl mentioned in the Quran to be the Buddha of Kifl (Kapilavastu) and the Fig tree of Surah 95 to be the Bodhi tree under which the Buddha recieved his illumination.

One of the most authorative Indian Muslim scholars of the 19th century, Haji Imdaadullah Makki remarked that there are more ways of approaching God then there are species of living things.

Regards

 

[Truthshallprevail]

Salams A-ManESL,
Since you are an Anarchist Muslim, I cannot agree with you entirely

Thanks for your reply. If you say all other religions are valid after the arrival of the holy prophet, I am afraid that I do not agree. Of course , Islam means attaining peace by surrendering to the will of the one and only God. Hence, any person seeking this truth must believe in the Qur'an and the last day and the original unaltered scriptures which were revealed. Because ultimately this is what Islam teaches. This is the view of the majority of the scholars of Islam. Problem is that the only preserved and guaranteed words of God that stands till today is the Qur'an. So I guess what you mentioned before is only your view on verses 2:62,5:69 . It is valid strictly for the unaltered original scriptures before the arrival of the holy prophet and the Qur'an . But ultimately , any true seeker of truth who believes that there is one and only God and that God has no partner no equal and does not have sons have to believe in Islam. So I disagree if you say that other religions are excepted. What you are saying is valid before the arrival of prophet Muhammad s.a.w.

On the Bible being altered, this is said to be true by the Christians themselves. In the Torah is it not clear that usury was made legal between the Jews and the non-Jews. So this is a clearly altered concept. When I say Bible and Torah, what I meant is the Bible and Torah we see today. When we study these scriptures we have to understand that even though there may be alterations there are many truths still in the scriptures. This is important and I agree.

The Taurat we Muslims believe in is not the "Torah" of the Jews and the Christians though the words - one Arabic, the other Hebrew - are the same. We believe that whatever the Holy Prophet Moses (Peace be upon him) preached to his people, was the revelation from God Almighty, but that Moses was not the author of those "books" attributed to him by the Jews and the Christians.
Likewise we believe that the Zaboor was the revelation of God granted to Hazrat Dawood (David) (Peace be upon him), but that the present Psalms associated with his name are not that revelation. The Christians themselves do not insist that David is the sole author of "his" Psalms. Christian "Brains Trust" confess - Source : "Author: Principally David, though there are other writers.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only BEGOTTEN son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 - AV)
The response to this is in the Quran 19 : 88-92

Perhaps you meant the original scriptures which were sent and unaltered. Mentioned in the original scriptures are also the arrival of the last prophet of God, so if anyone believes in the scriptures has to believe in the arrival of the last messenger . But where can you find such today . I guess this discussion would take another turn and in turn be rather counterproductive if we both start to disagree with one another. Plus, it is not in line with the topic of the thread. I propose another thread for discussion on the matter if you like. I will send you a PM on the subject now.

Peace Brother

 

[Bowman]

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only BEGOTTEN son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 - AV)
The response to this is in the Quran 19 : 88-92

The Son brings the End Times



وقالوا اتخذ الرحمن ولدا لقد جئتم شيءا إدا تكاد السموت يتفطرن منه وتنشق الأرض وتخر الجبال هدا أن دعوا للرحمن ولدا وما ينبغي للرحمن أن يتخذ ولدا

Waqaloo ittakhatha alrrahmanu waladan laqad ji/tum shay-an iddan takadu alssamawatu yatafattarna minhu watanshaqqu al-ardu watakhirru aljibalu haddan an daAAaw lilrrahmani waladan Wama yanbaghee lilrrahmani an yattakhitha waladan

And they said: "The most merciful he has taken a Son. Truly You came, a disastrous thing.” The heavens are well nigh (to) burst from Him and the earth she cleaves asunder and then later the mountains fall down into pieces violently with noise. That they called to the most merciful a Son. And that it is convenient to the most merciful that he takes a Son. 19.88 – 92


Contrary to popular Islamic thinking, these ayahs actually proclaim Jesus Christ as the “convenient” Son by first quoting what they said “qaloo”, and then shifting to the singular destruction which Jesus Christ brings during the end times as He opens the Seven seals of Revelation.

 

[Truthshallprevail]

19:88 And they say: The Beneficent God has taken (to Himself) a son.
19:89 Certainly you have made an abominable assertion
19:90 The heavens may almost be rent thereat, and the earth cleave asunder, and the mountains fall down in pieces,
19:91 That they ascribe a son to the Beneficent God.
19:92 And it is not worthy of the Beneficent God that He should take (to Himself) a son.

 

[Bowman]

19:88 And they say: The Beneficent God has taken (to Himself) a son.

وقالوا اتخذ الرحمن ولدا

Waqaloo ittakhatha alrrahmanu waladan

19.88 And they said: "The most merciful he has taken a son."

19:89 Certainly you have made an abominable assertion

لقد جئتم شيءا إدا

Laqad ji/tum shay-an iddan

19.89Truly you came, a disastrous thing.

19:90 The heavens may almost be rent thereat, and the earth cleave asunder, and the mountains fall down in pieces,

تكاد السموت يتفطرن منه وتنشق الأرض وتخر الجبال هدا​

Takadu alssamawatu yatafattarna minhu watanshaqqu al-ardu watakhirru aljibalu haddan

19.90 The heavens are well nigh (to) burst from him, and the earth she cleaves asunder and then later the mountains fall down into pieces violently with noise.

19:91 That they ascribe a son to the Beneficent God.

أن دعوا للرحمن ولدا

An daAAaw lilrrahmani waladan

19.91 That they called to the most merciful a son.

19:92 And it is not worthy of the Beneficent God that He should take (to Himself) a son.

وما ينبغي للرحمن أن يتخذ ولدا

Wama yanbaghee lilrrahmani an yattakhitha waladan

19.92 And that it is convenient to the most merciful that he takes a son.

 

[Truthshallprevail]

Please do not change the words of the Qur'an

 

[Bowman]

Please do not change the words of the Qur'an

Only islam has changed the words of the Koran.

 

[nameless]

No. You are misunderstanding...Those verses have to be understood in context.

if you dont mind, give some idea about the context in brief.

The concept of nirvana is but one way of approaching that Reality(cf point 6 in my previous post), which is symbolised by God in the Quran. Gautam Buddha took that particular approach towards the Reality.

i think it is inappropriate to consider god in the quran is just symbolisation of reality, since the god in islam is the 'creator'. The effect of meditation and submission may be the same, but it does not mean, approval of submission would approve meditation. Kindly clarify if im wrong.

The worship of God or Unity pervading the universe is but a metaphor for developing the organic link of man with the Reality in the verse.

but not the only metaphor. Islam claims there is only one such metaphor.

Surrender means not only surrender of ego, but to become harmonious with the prevading Unity.

this is correct only from islamic perspective, since surrender is not the only path to be in harmony with the prevading unity. Surrender is a path, harmony is the result. They are not the same when there exists other paths to attain the harmony.

In a sense the word surrender may be replaced by peace.

seems to me it is incorrect to replace surrender with peace. Surrender is just another path, and peace is the result. If surrender is replaced by peace, it would be mean there is only one path to peace, that is surrender.

Like everything in the universe(other then man) is in a state of Islam as it is doing its functions.

As we know surrender and peace are not the same. If we replace the term 'islam' with surrender and peace, will the meaning of the statement remains the same?

Regarding the approach of Muslim scholars regarding Buddha, from the book "Sufi essays" by Hossein Nasr,


One of the most authorative Indian Muslim scholars of the 19th century, Haji Imdaadullah Makki remarked that there are more ways of approaching God then there are species of living things.

Regards

sufi's may accept there are more paths to truth, they considers dancing can be a form of devotion, but i have never seen anything in quran to justify that.

 

[A-ManESL]

if you dont mind, give some idea about the context in brief.

The context is what I gave in the next paragraph.

i think it is inappropriate to consider god in the quran is just symbolisation of reality, since the god in islam is the 'creator'. The effect of meditation and submission may be the same, but it does not mean, approval of submission would approve meditation. Kindly clarify if im wrong.

Yes, you are wrong. There are many verses in the Quran which show God is panentheistic in nature, and many which say that God's nature cannot be understood entirely. So simply saying that God is the creator is a partial/flawed description of the Reality. Many scholars, have said this about God, that he is but a way of symbolising the metaphysical Reality, not only in Islam but in other religions as well. (eg see W.C. Smith's book on Islam).

but not the only metaphor. Islam claims there is only one such metaphor.

No. There is no such claim.

this is correct only from islamic perspective, since surrender is not the only path to be in harmony with the prevading unity. Surrender is a path, harmony is the result. They are not the same when there exists other paths to attain the harmony.

seems to me it is incorrect to replace surrender with peace. Surrender is just another path, and peace is the result. If surrender is replaced by peace, it would be mean there is only one path to peace, that is surrender.

Your confusion partly results because you dont know that these terms have a specific detailed meanings in the context of the Quran, in fact the literal meaning of the word Islam means both surrender and peace, which just about establishes my point anyway. Surrender doesnt just mean giving up in front of a diety, and peace doesnt just mean no war. If you want to understand the meanings, I suggest that you read some good book.

Also in fact, there are English translations of the Quran in which the in the verse 3:85 Islam is also translated as peace.

As we know surrender and peace are not the same. If we replace the term 'islam' with surrender and peace, will the meaning of the statement remains the same?

Thats what I am saying, we know this is in today's language. But in the language of the 7th C Arabia, when the Quran was revealed, these terms were used in a different context, related to harmony with the Unity. This ties in with the concepts of Oneness of God, and hence Oneness of creation, with the concept of love(again a specific meaning of love, not the kind of love we talk about today, but primodial love between every created thing, living or non-living; Mahatma Gandhi studied Islam and came to the conclusion that love was the central teaching of Islam) etc as well.

sufi's may accept there are more paths to truth, they considers dancing can be a form of devotion, but i have never seen anything in quran to justify that.

Firstly Sufis are devout Muslims and shouldnt be treated different from Muslims. They claim this themselves, and this is recognized by other non-Sufi Muslims as well. Also Haji Imdaadullah Makki was, besides being a Sufi, also an Islamic scholar and one of the major figures behind the establishment of the seminary at Deoband. Also there is a hadith related to dancing. Dont know what that has to do with this topic though.

Regards

 

[nameless]

Yes, you are wrong. There are many verses in the Quran which show God is panentheistic in nature

to my understanding panentheistic god would not fit to symbolize the Unity pervading the universe, since god and reality are not ontologically the same in panentheism.

and many which say that God's nature cannot be understood entirely. So simply saying that God is the creator is a partial/flawed description of the Reality.

that would mean that god is not the unity pervading the universe, isnt?

Your confusion partly results because you dont know that these terms have a specific detailed meanings in the context of the Quran, in fact the literal meaning of the word Islam means both surrender and peace, which just about establishes my point anyway. Surrender doesnt just mean giving up in front of a diety, and peace doesnt just mean no war.

Thats what I am saying, we know this is in today's language. But in the language of the 7th C Arabia, when the Quran was revealed, these terms were used in a different context, related to harmony with the Unity

so the usage of the term 'islam' here represents path or destiny?

This ties in with the concepts of Oneness of God, and hence Oneness of creation.

it does not..... it contradicts each other.
creation is when there is no unity or when we are in harmonty with unity there is no creation, since that unity itself is god.

Mahatma Gandhi studied Islam and came to the conclusion that love was the central teaching of Islam) etc as well.

to be honest, may be interpretation of gandhi about islam is correct, but i dont have respect for any of his teachings.

 

[A-ManESL]

to my understanding panentheistic god would not fit to symbolize the Unity pervading the universe, since god and reality are not ontologically the same in panentheism.

By Reality I dont mean reality, the state of physical things! I mean the metaphysical Reality symbolized by God, a state to be achieved or whatever. That is why I used a capital R. Sorry for any confusion.

In my understanding, in the Islamic approach God and reality are not equal too, in fact God has a quality of akhassu wasfihi(self-sufficiency) which reality doesnt possess. Maybe you are thinking of pantheism and not panentheism. At any rate, it doesnt matter. According to Islam, even that concept of panentheism is insufficient to describe God. Thats been my point all along, any concept which can fit in our understanding, is partial only. Fortunately the aim (in Islam as in any other tradition) is never to analyse God but to develop the link with him, in whichever way he is analysed in that particular tradition. This is the basic idea.

that would mean that god is not the unity pervading the universe, isnt?

No. He is. That is the Islamic approach. What also is the Islamic approach is that this is not all there is to Him. He is much more besides that.

so the usage of the term 'islam' here represents path or destiny?

Havent I explained this before?Hmm....maybe you can start with this: Islam means to become harmonious with the Unity, becoming harmonious is the primoridial nature of all things. This is what is meant by surrender, we need to surrender all our faculties to their original functions for harmony to prevail: our ego came from the Unity, and should be returned to it, attributes like intelligence etc likewise. Now you may ask, what is the meaning of returning to the Unity. (Also The symbol for Unity is God.) Briefly it means to reconnect them with God.

To learn more about Islam, you may read the following book: Understanding Islam By Frithjof Schuon. You will find some of the book online on google books.

Bear in mind that all this is in the context of the conditions in which Prophet Muhammad lived. The fundamental idea, or the intention behind his teaching, is the same as for all religions: reconnect with the Reality, (again capital R!)

it does not..... it contradicts each other.
creation is when there is no unity or when we are in harmonty with unity there is no creation, since that unity itself is god.

Perhaps you need to understand the concepts of wahdat-al-wajood and wahdat-al-shahood completely, (and also regarding how these concepts are panentheistic) . Anyway, let me perfectly clear: God is not all that we imagine him, Unity or Creator or whatever. The idea that you can completely develop a theory about God and then study it is fundamentally flawed, since the entirety of God is beyond human thought. This is the source of your percieved contradictions. These contradictions are resolved for those who tread the spiritual path, and not on the level of theology, where you are attempting to find answers. Just like Ramakrishna did, (he became a Sufi Muslim for a time too.) when asked whether God is formless or with form, replied "he is simultaneously formless and with form." To a logician this would seem absurd, but Ramakrishna having treaded the spiritual path was aware of the unity between these seemingly contradicting positions esoterically.

to be honest, may be interpretation of gandhi about islam is correct, but i dont have respect for any of his teachings.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course.

Regards

 

[nameless]

By Reality I dont mean reality, the state of physical things! I mean the metaphysical Reality symbolized by God, a state to be achieved or whatever. That is why I used a capital R. Sorry for any confusion.

whatever reality it be, it can never be symbolized by god in quran, it is a crime to believe so according to quran. The reality according to quran is a creation by allah, and worshipping the created is strictly forbidden in quran. " none has the right to be worshipped except I, therefore worship Me.’”
And does quran says we could attain status equal to allah?

In my understanding, in the Islamic approach God and reality are not equal too, in fact God has a quality of akhassu wasfihi(self-sufficiency) which reality doesnt possess.

True, that is why worshipping the reality is forbidden in islam, since it is his creation. Only allah is eligible to be worshipped.

" none has the right to be worshipped except I, therefore worship Me.’”

The none here refers to creation

Fortunately the aim (in Islam as in any other tradition) is never to analyse God but to develop the link with him, in whichever way he is analysed in that particular tradition. This is the basic idea.

i dont agree. Why islam forbids worship of god in form/idol etc? Why pilgrimage to mecca is necessary?

""For We assuredly sent amongst every people a prophet, (with the command) worship me and avoid false gods ". who are the false gods here?

No. He is. That is the Islamic approach. What also is the Islamic approach is that this is not all there is to Him. He is much more besides that.

pls quote verse from quran, that he is the creation.

Havent I explained this before?Hmm....maybe you can start with this: Islam means to become harmonious with the Unity, becoming harmonious is the primoridial nature of all things. This is what is meant by surrender, we need to surrender all our faculties to their original functions for harmony to prevail: our ego came from the Unity, and should be returned to it, attributes like intelligence etc likewise. Now you may ask, what is the meaning of returning to the Unity. (Also The symbol for Unity is God.) Briefly it means to reconnect them with God.

may be my bad, but still i cant relate your response with my question. My question was, in the phrase, "And whoever follows other than surrender as a system, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers." 3:85

islam here stands for path or destiny?

To learn more about Islam, you may read the following book: Understanding Islam By Frithjof Schuon. You will find some of the book online on google books.

surely will do when situation arrives, but for time being can u explain it in your own words if it is related to the topic.

Bear in mind that all this is in the context of the conditions in which Prophet Muhammad lived. The fundamental idea, or the intention behind his teaching, is the same as for all religions: reconnect with the Reality, (again capital R!)

Im not sure about your understanding of other faiths, the intention of other religions are not the same of islam, that to reconnect with the reality. But the reconnection would occur as byproduct when they are after someother result.

Perhaps you need to understand the concepts of wahdat-al-wajood and wahdat-al-shahood completely, (and also regarding how these concepts are panentheistic) . Anyway, let me perfectly clear: God is not all that we imagine him, Unity or Creator or whatever. The idea that you can completely develop a theory about God and then study it is fundamentally flawed, since the entirety of God is beyond human thought. This is the source of your percieved contradictions. These contradictions are resolved for those who tread the spiritual path, and not on the level of theology, where you are attempting to find answers. Just like Ramakrishna did, (he became a Sufi Muslim for a time too.) when asked whether God is formless or with form, replied "he is simultaneously formless and with form." To a logician this would seem absurd, but Ramakrishna having treaded the spiritual path was aware of the unity between these seemingly contradicting positions esoterically.

these are all sufism , pls quote something from quran to justify this concept. There are a lot sufi concepts which contradicts quran.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course.

thanks...

 

[A-ManESL]

whatever reality it be, it can never be symbolized by god in quran, it is a crime to believe so according to quran. The reality according to quran is a creation by allah, and worshipping the created is strictly forbidden in quran. " none has the right to be worshipped except I, therefore worship Me.’”

Reality is different from reality. By Reality I meant something else, by reality I mean something else. (actually this distinguishing is not my innovation, rather something standard in spiritual literature, it stems from the idea the God only is real.) I thought I clarified that. Let me put it more plainly:

Whenever I write Reality I mean God or Absolute or Metaphysical Being etc.

Whenever I write reality I mean the state of physical things.

And does quran says we could attain status equal to allah?

To answer your question would be long and tedious, because there are certain preliminaries to it, including the basic idea of what Islam is, to be covered first. There are a lot of other things, as to how the attributes come from God in man etc to be understood here. A related verse(8:17) I have quoted later though, and the verse "And he taught Adam all the names", seemingly unrelated is quite relevant here.

I will content myself my posting a quotation and the book from where you can find the meaning to this.
Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said, "I am Ahmed without the meem (i.e. if you remove 'm' from Ahmed you get Ahad, which I am: I am Ahad, meaning Unity, God), I am an Arab without the Ayn (meaning I am Rab, Rab again means God). Whosoever hath seen me, the same hath seen the Truth(Truth one of the names of God)."- You can understand the meaning in its full context if you are so bothered, from Hossein Nasr's Ideals and Realities of Islam.

You can also read Imam Ghazali's book Raddu’l Jamil. (I couldnt find an english copy online, the one I found is in French). It is on a slightly different topic, but shows in what sense, calling Jesus Christ(pbuh) is God is valid. He is in union with God at the level of ethics.

True, that is why worshipping the reality is forbidden in islam, since it is his creation. Only allah is eligible to be worshipped.

Allah is only a symbol of the absolute, "He is the absolute- as I have been
" none has the right to be worshipped except I, therefore worship Me.’”

The none here refers to creation

I have no idea why you mixed up pantheism with panentheism in the first place.

Anyway, it is a moot point now.

i dont agree. Why islam forbids worship of god in form/idol etc? Why pilgrimage to mecca is necessary?

""For We assuredly sent amongst every people a prophet, (with the command) worship me and avoid false gods ". who are the false gods here?

Bro, you are starting with incomplete understanding of the verse of the Quran, of what is meant by God in Islam. It seems silly to go about and circles with you like this. I named a book, which you can read when you have time. The word God needs to be equated with Ishwara or Brahman as the word God in Islam symbolizes the Absolute. It may or may not be that you have a certain understanding of the word God, and are carrying that forward and that is the source of the confusion.

As for idol worship etc, there are historical factors why it was prohibited in Islam. But it may interest you to know that this was in reference to the conditions in 7th C Arabia. From the book, I am repeatedly citing, (Schuon's Understanding Islam)

"...once the Moslems had grasped that Hinduism was not equivalent to the paganism of the Arabs; Hindus were then assimilated to the "people of the book", that is to the monotheists of the Western Semitic traditions."

pls quote verse from quran, that he is the creation.

Okay. Although please to remember that I never claimed that God is creation. I talked about panentheism, not pantheism.

But firstly note the context of the Quran. The situation of 7th C Arabia was such that a civilized and sophisticated society wasnt there and the concept of monotheism was simpler within the historical background of the already existing Semitic religions to assimilate. Hence the verses of the Quran reflect that. Other ideas such as pantheism, panentheism, monism etc would have appeared alien and out of place in such a society, so they are referenced to marginally. That said, here are some of the verses which may be interpreted in related senses:

2:115 And whersoever you may look there is the face of God.
57:3 He is the First and the Last, the Outward and the Inward...
4:78 ...All is from God ...
8:17 It is not you who slew; it was God. When you threw (a handful of dust), it was not your act, but God's . . .

Muslims recite a formula often "Verily we are from God and to Him shall we return."

may be my bad, but still i cant relate your response with my question. My question was, in the phrase, "And whoever follows other than surrender as a system, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers." 3:85

islam here stands for path or destiny?

I have no idea why you cant relate the response. Maybe first forget about the question and focus on the understanding. That is what is conveyed in the verse, anyway.

The word surrender in the above verse is the english substitute for the word Islam in the actual verse.

Im not sure about your understanding of other faiths, the intention of other religions are not the same of islam, that to reconnect with the reality. But the reconnection would occur as byproduct when they are after someother result.

Hmm....okay. I guess I dont agree with you there, but other religions isnt the topic of this thread so maybe we should let it go.

these are all sufism , pls quote something from quran to justify this concept. There are a lot sufi concepts which contradicts quran.

Sufi concepts contradict Quran is nonsense (and I did quote 31:27, I think a few posts back). Some people have floated these ideas but they have only superficial knowledge of Islam and Sufism. Tell me what do you want: source from orthodox Muslims or from famous Sufis that Sufism is in Islam, and I'll be happy to provide it to you. You can buy these books online if you are serious. (btw .lava is one of the practicing disciples on RF. I am not a Sufi although some of my family members are disciples on the Sufi path.)

Regards