Is Christianity Picked On?

[askeptic]

A class in logic or possibly Boolean Algebra would suffice to show you just how inclusive several of your statements are: regardless of any face saving caveats. Your words would be less offensive were you to temper them with "some", "a few" or even "many".

If only more people were as eager to CHANGE their outlook instead of trying to justify them!

:bonk::biglaugh:

Since you are such an expert in rhetorical logic, you should recognize your use of ad hominem. I've only been here a short while and this is the second time you've used this tactic.

What do you think debate and argument are, if not the process of defending your positions, oh masterful one?

 

[Scuba Pete]

I never claimed to be an expert, and even a novice can see the real point here. Saying that "Christianity supports homophobia" includes all Christians even if you put a caveat somewhere in your post.

Christianity contains not only homophobes but those who have no such proclivity.

As for the ad hominem, I did not refute your claim based on YOU. I did contende that ANY study of these two disciplines would enable you to see your fallacy. It's up to you to do that, not me!

 

[Ulver]

The anger in here is starting to boil water. I think people should chill here.

This topic is about being Picked On? Now if by Picked on we mean Jokes, then I see no problem. If you can't take a joke then I just feel sorry for you. On the other hand say if a comedian makes a joke about Christians, but then has a joke directed at him and get's upset, I feel just as sorry for that person. Humor is a two way street. It becomes a problem when it only goes one way.

I haven't noticed any Christian explicitly mention about being persecuted on this board, but if anyone does I would like to point to two other posters (Tannenisis & ) who have described horrible things done to them and members of their faith. I'm pretty sure most christians never recieve treatment like this, if not even for centuries.

Well, you have a weird load of Christians; here every disaster is blamed on happenstance. Sure Christians will behave just like everyone else, in that there will be hypocrites; that is to be expected - we are all just human.

This stricks a certain point. While I may make a Joke about Christianity, I in general am not angry at most Christians. I am angry though at attitudes and beliefs reflected in some Evangelical Churches and other what I would call fundamentalist churches found in America & Australia. Both nations have been breeding grounds for religious extremism of Christian brand (in name) because they're severed from the contact of their roots in Europe. The ideology of "US vs. Them" and isolationism has fused itself to a number of religious movements in this nation and a majority of them being of Christian roots because Christianity is the majority faith in this nation. Most recently you can see it in a number of Evangelical movements and such figures as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. Now there are many christians of the Evangelical branch that don't buy everything these people say (thank God), but there are a good number whom do and if you look at recent American politics you can see that.

Those are some rather scary quotes you've come up with, s2a. I don't think they represent the sentiments of the majority of Christians in this country, however.

They don't, but you know how American politics works. Not everyone votes. This past Presidential election had a recent high of somewhere in the 60% range. A lot of the ideological right wing leaders of certain churches and denominations get their followers well organized to vote to what they say.

This alone points out some of the crazy actions in this country- http://christianexodus.org/ For me.... this website and a lot of what the Evangelical/Fundamentalist leaders say reminds me of the Nazis.

This whole "US vs. Them", Isolationism and Pro-End of the World sentiment has got to go if anyone care's about humanity. If any actually cares for Peace, which apparently far too many people forget was something that I at least remember seemed to be a word associated with Jesus.

 

[Sunstone]

From listening to conservative talk radio, I get the impression that it's fairly common for conservative talk show hosts to claim that there exists a powerful, influential group of secularists in this country who happen to be immensely bigotted towards Christianity. I've heard this over and over again from a variety of hosts. Yet, very seldom, if ever, have I heard any host bring forth much evidence in support of this notion. A tidbit of evidence here and a tidbit there is all I've ever heard, none of it very compelling. So, I wonder if in the absence of much evidence for this notion, the hosts are merely giving vent to their unreasoned feelings and unthinking emotions on the subject? Perhaps they've just repeated that old thing so often, they've come to believe it's true, even though they haven't critically examined it.

Put differently, just how powerful and influential can secularists be in a country that is overwhelmingly Christian, and whose numbers of Christians are not dropping as a percentage of the population? It would even seem that those "powerful and influential" secularists have much less power and influence than the talk show hosts suppose.

 

[askeptic]

Saying that "Christianity supports homophobia" includes all Christians even if you put a caveat somewhere in your post.

Please point out where I ever said that?????!!!!!!!!

You obviously have me confused with someone else. I have cited examples of ACTUAL use of accusation of anti-christian bigotry were used, to deflect criticism! I have NEVER discussed or even broached homophobia! Sheesh!

Now you can refute my citations and examples that support my premise, but I expect an actual argument as refutation.

The Ad Hominem is an attempt to dismiss the other person by insinuating they are not educated in the topic (and can therefore be dismissed as being an uneducated dolt). You have done this to me twice now. You have no idea of my education, my background in rhetoric, logic, etc. and if you insist that a formal argument be presented, then it would be good for you to do that yourself if you expect it of someone else.

I have never even raised the topic of homophobia, have never constructed an argument that said ALL christians are homophobic, and would kindly appreciate you NOT pretending that I have!

 

[askeptic]

Put differently, just how powerful and influential can secularists be in a country that is overwhelmingly Christian, and whose numbers of Christians are not dropping as a percentage of the population? It would even seem that those "powerful and influential" secularists have much less power and influence than the talk show hosts suppose.

A good point, Sunstone. My view is that there is an attempt by these folks to plant a persecution complex into their listeners.

We have the AFA calling the TV show "The Book of Daniel" anti-christian bigotry, and insisting it not be aired. Rather than just not watch the program, there seems to be a huge amount of fear out there of the program. Further reflecting their own prejudices:

According to an article by Religion News Service, the series is written by Jack Kenny, a practicing homosexual, who describes himself as being "in Catholic recovery,” interested in Buddhist teachings about reincarnation, and unsure exactly how he defines God and/or Jesus.

My goodness! We certainly shouldn't be allowed to see programs where a Christian is questioning or rejecting his faith! Not happy to simply change their own channels, they want to censor the program.

Then, of course, we have the myth propogators claiming that the US was founded as a "Christian" nation, and claiming that those who refute that argument are "anti-christian bigots".

And if you haven't been over to the "Traditional Values Coalition" you are really missing how the "anti-christian bigotry" rhetoric is used. Here's just a sample regarding a vote in the senate & house education committees they disagreed with: The article is entitled " Republicans Vote To Against Funding Anti-Christian Bigotry" (http://www.traditionalvalues.org/modules.php?sid=221)

"This simple language would have protected our nation's Christian children from being mistreated in our public schools over their religious opposition to homosexuality," said Lafferty. "The Democrats decided that it is more important for children to learn about sodomy than to have their religious freedoms protected."

<snip>

"Ted Kennedy and other Democrats apparently have no problem punishing children who express their religiously motivated opposition to homosexuality," said Lafferty. "This is clearly anti-Christian bigotry, and it promotes a sexually perverted lifestyle that frequently ends in death from HIV infection. One must wonder why Democrats are so eager to promote a lifestyle that kills its participants."

Yes children - All the democrats are forcing you to attend your class in sodomy, which is right after homeroom. And who is it propogating the gross generalization about the attitudes of "our nation's Christian children" (and by inference, their parents)!!! Certainly not "anti-christian bigots"! Talk about misrepresentation!

 

[Scuba Pete]

Dude,

You came into the discussion AFTER it was raised and WHILE it was being discussed. I never indicated that YOU posted it: that is your own erroneous assumption.

BTW, I never cast aspersions on your learning either. I merely indicated that this was covered in ANY beginning treatise on either subject. You on the other hand, have not addressed the LOGIC but rather have supplied us with a red herring of "What" was actually being discussed.

So do you disagree with the premise? You have debated everything BUT the premise.

Please point out where I ever said that?????!!!!!!!!

You obviously have me confused with someone else. I have cited examples of ACTUAL use of accusation of anti-christian bigotry were used, to deflect criticism! I have NEVER discussed or even broached homophobia! Sheesh!

Now you can refute my citations and examples that support my premise, but I expect an actual argument as refutation.

The Ad Hominem is an attempt to dismiss the other person by insinuating they are not educated in the topic (and can therefore be dismissed as being an uneducated dolt). You have done this to me twice now. You have no idea of my education, my background in rhetoric, logic, etc. and if you insist that a formal argument be presented, then it would be good for you to do that yourself if you expect it of someone else.

I have never even raised the topic of homophobia, have never constructed an argument that said ALL christians are homophobic, and would kindly appreciate you NOT pretending that I have!

 

[Tannenisis]

Had things to do for a few days. Now I'm back.

I never claimed to be an expert, and even a novice can see the real point here. Saying that "Christianity supports homophobia" includes all Christians even if you put a caveat somewhere in your post.

I'm assuming this bit is addressed to me.
This is not what I said in the least. What I stated was a refutation of the statement that the anti-homosexual movement has nothing to do with Christianity whatsoever. This is false.

I did not state that Christianity as a whole supports this notion. I stated that there are Christian SECTS that do, under their brand of Christian interpretation. That brings Christianity in its extreme, literal form into the discussion. Just as when we are talking about suicide bombers and literal jihad against infidels we are discussing extremist sects of Islam.

Again, I state that you need to separate comments on the people from comments on the religion itself.

We can sit here all day and tell ourselves that these people are not "True Christians," that they represent fear and hatred. But all that does is distance ourselves from what comes about from every philosophy and religion that has ever been born underneath our sun. EVERY philosophy can be twisted into something darker and sinister. Christianity is not immune to this. It has a history of a sinister side just as other religions do.

Christianity contains not only homophobes but those who have no such proclivity.

Again, where in my post did I make the assertion that all Christians are homophobes? Nowhere. What exactly is wrong with pointing out that there are movements within Chritsianity that are homophobic, that base themselves on a singular interpretation of the Bible Scriptures? Where is the lie in what I have spoken?

My two cents,
Tannenisis

 

[Scuba Pete]

I don't see you pointing out the homophobes from other areas now, do I?

NOW you are saying some do and some don't: your first post was misleading.

But whatever, just know that when you paint with a HUGE brush you are going to paint a bunch of people as homophobes that are NOT!

 

[linwood]

When you, by default, call me a homophobe, etc BECAUSE I am a Christian, I cry FOUL! Should I stand blithely by while you eviscerate my reputation? BTW, none of the Christians posting here seem to be using the "persecution card", but that doesn't seem to stop you from accusing us of using it! Talk about a RED HERRING!

Net doc, could you point me to the post where Tannenisis stated that all Christians were homophobes?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Tannenisis]

I don't see you pointing out the homophobes from other areas now, do I?

This thread is specifically about the arena of Christianity. So this statement is hardly relevant.

NOW you are saying some do and some don't: your first post was misleading.

This statement is also not true. I have already reposted the exact words that I said. At no point in my post did I state that the entire religion was one of homophobia. I stated in that I know Christians that walk in light and love. I stated that I think Christianity is a beautiful religion.
This is hardly painting everybody with the same hateful brush you assume I'm using.

But whatever, just know that when you paint with a HUGE brush you are going to paint a bunch of people as homophobes that are NOT!

If it makes you feel better to misinterpret my post, then so be it. I have stated that the current anti-gay movement is largely based on a singular interpretation of the Biblical texts. This brings Christianity into the picture, whether you like it or not.

It seems that merely stating something so obvious is enough to get one labeled a "Christophobe" with no provocation.

Oddly enough, I have yet to hear a word from you about the persecution that I have seen towards Muslims, nor things I have actually experienced in my own life, which was the point of my post: define persecution.

My two cents,
Tannenisis

 

[ejlewis5340]

I think religion has distorted the character of God. It has portrayed God in its own image rather than as a good Father and creator. That is certainly one of the basic reasons why they are ridiculed. Is it a good thing to ridicule something you disagree with? Obviously not. That only hurts you. But is there room for a need to view God without any religious spin. Yes, and it is the only way I believe we will ever be able to understand his character without the distortions of religion. God is a good Father.

 

[Ody]

Judaism is "picked on" and no one raises in anger, after all the most common put down i hear online between two people is the word of 'Jewbag'. After all no one really cared when pat robertson called the anti christ a jew living in israel today. After all i have been ridiculed by christians and none christians for my belief in high school and no one really cared, but when one kid in my class ridiculed the book of job, his life for a few days was made a living hell. Now im not trying to say that christians aren't given a hard time , sometimes they do recieve ridicule, but in proportion atleast to judaism, the numbers of occurences of bigotry are small. Also to say that other minority religions are safe from ridicule is a big fat lie, after all in the seventh grade one out of every three hand gestures towards me was a nazi salute.

 

[wmam]

What is said, in Scripture, that we are to do when confronted with such? Are we to feel it or what? Are we to embrace it or what? How are we told to handle such? Are we to whine and complain about it? Or are we to rejoice?

 

[jazzalta]

Someone earlier pooh-poohed the idea of Christian hypocrisy and that "we're all human." That may be, but when organizations, such as The Miracle Channel continue to promote the likes of Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Bob Larson, Jack Van Impe and many other obvious charlatans, hypocrisy is the only word to describe their actions. And I do believe that Christian organizations must be called on when conflicts of truth arise.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Judaism is "picked on" and no one raises in anger...

As one who has reported posts on this forum and have actively censored anti-semitic remarks on my other forums, I take exception to this statement. No, not nearly enough are riled when bigotry of any sort is being put out as acceptable, but to say that "no one" protests or raises their voice in anger is an INCREDIBLY broad brush.

 

[Smoke]

Someone earlier pooh-poohed the idea of Christian hypocrisy and that "we're all human." That may be, but when organizations, such as The Miracle Channel continue to promote the likes of Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Bob Larson, Jack Van Impe and many other obvious charlatans, hypocrisy is the only word to describe their actions. And I do believe that Christian organizations must be called on when conflicts of truth arise.

When I was seventeen, I worked with a woman in her forties who was very critical.

Once I got exasperated with her constant criticism, and said, "Look, Giselle, nobody's perfect."

"Nobody's perfect," she agreed, "but you could be a lot closer."

She was right. And the same goes for many religious leaders. Being human is not an excuse for bad behavior.

 

[Smoke]

Judaism is "picked on" and no one raises in anger, after all the most common put down i hear online between two people is the word of 'Jewbag'.

I've never heard that expression in my life, and I thought I'd heard them all. Where are you hanging out online?

(Regardless, there's no excuse for it.)

 

[Quiddity]

When I was seventeen, I worked with a woman in her forties who was very critical.

Once I got exasperated with her constant criticism, and said, "Look, Giselle, nobody's perfect."

"Nobody's perfect," she agreed, "but you could be a lot closer."

She was right. And the same goes for many religious leaders. Being human is not an excuse for bad behavior.

Out of curiousity, who do you see or hear excusing such things?

 

[Smoke]

Out of curiousity, who do you see or hear excusing such things?

I hear that all the time: the bad behavior of Christians is said to be no reflection on Christianity. But in this particular instance I was responding to Jazzalta's comment, which I quoted in full in my post. Here it is again:

Someone earlier pooh-poohed the idea of Christian hypocrisy and that "we're all human." That may be, but when organizations, such as The Miracle Channel continue to promote the likes of Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Bob Larson, Jack Van Impe and many other obvious charlatans, hypocrisy is the only word to describe their actions. And I do believe that Christian organizations must be called on when conflicts of truth arise.