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Featured Is Catholicism a Christian religion ?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Neuropteron, Jun 4, 2021.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The command from God himself was not to “MAKE” images to be used in worship. That, right there was the first breach.....many others followed because once the thin edge of the wedge is in, the rest is a piece of cake....or a sun shaped piece of bread.
     
  2. Ashoka

    Ashoka At Your Seva

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    Have you ever heard of the seventh ecumenical council?
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I am guessing that you are a former Catholic? Its all still there...isn't it?

    I am not, nor have I ever been Catholic, so the "ecumenical councils" are of little interest to me. The decisions made by those who led "the church" in the successive centuries after Christ's death do not represent "Christianity" in any way. In fact they were a complete departure from it IMO. A quick check of history compared with Christ's teaching will confirm it.
    Would you like to discuss that?

    There was a reason why the Bible canon finished with the letters and Revelation recorded by the apostle John. Once he (as the last remaining one of the 12) passed away, the foretold apostasy began in earnest as the last remaining restraint against it was removed. Why does no one acknowledge the reality of this apostasy? I guess because they might see themselves as part of it....? [​IMG] Lies are hard to defend....truth always triumphs in the end.

    The Bible does not support apostolic succession, or a Pope, or even an earthly priesthood, so what was taught or any decisions made by "the church" after the first century, are part of that inevitable apostasy, and have no bearing on Christianity at all. That is why Jesus, in answering his critics (including the devil) quoted scripture. If it isn't in the Bible, we have no interest in the opinions of men who corrupted everything that Jesus taught.
     
  4. Ashoka

    Ashoka At Your Seva

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    I am a former Catholic yes. How did you guess?

    I understand that your faith does not accept the councils. That is fair. But don't you think that they are of some importance to Christian history? I see you are scripture alone. Where in the Bible does it say that it has to be in the Bible? Where did the Bible get that authority? You may say from God, but the Church is the pillar and the foundation of the faith, at least, for Christians for the past 2,000 years. You cannot deny Christianity's history or it's earliest start.

    But I respect your viewpoint, just sharing another. I personally don't believe in Catholic teachings anymore, but I hate to see it falsely painted in such a way. But, Metis is doing a better job at it than I. His posts have been really good so far.

    I wish you peace.
     
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  5. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    :)

    I think it's interesting how we shift through our life. I was raised as a Bible-only Christian and study of the Bible and prayer led me to reject Sola Scriptura. Once I rejected that man-made tradition, I had to pray and study more to find the Church that held on to the tradition of Thessalonians, spoken by word or sent by letter, and that led me to the Catholic Church.

    The idea that the only Tradition we hold on to is scripture is from man, too. You can find nothing in the Bible that says "reject what you were told, but was not written down." Because, that would be nonsense; virtually none of what they had been told was written down and almost all of it was the verbal passing on of information.

    I think that's the source of the disagreements over the Sola Scriptura. Some churches existed before there was a Bible to be authoritative, others did not.

    It prefaced the death and resurrection to come and led us, the followers of Christ, by example in righteousness. Jesus did not need a baptism, as John rightly noted "I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me?"

    Ah, okay. Sorry about the confusion, I wasn't considering the operational language of the Watchtower.

    We have different wording but a similar approach. Dogma is teaching that we accord to the Sacred Tradition handed down by the Apostles, the composition of the Bible for instance is a Dogma. Doctrine are teachings on faith and morals, but not held to have been divinely revealed.

    I don't make claims to specific revelation of how the events of the end time will unfold. For instance, the Bible says the living and the dead will be judged and those not found in the Book of Life will be consigned to the fiery pit. Does that mean there is going to be a line of people like at a magistrate and a physical book Jesus checks like Santa with his list? I have my doubts. It could happen though.

    Hey now, which is it? Is there nothing in the Bible to source these beliefs or are there ambiguous scripture that could, if the interpretation, is correct support them? Saying "I don't agree with your interpretation" is very different than "that isn't in the Bible at all".

    :) Agreed.

    As I noted, you are not persuaded. You also won't be persuaded by my argument that there is, throughout the Bible, only one single divine being. If the Word is divine, then He is in fact that one single true God who proves all other gods false. This is an obvious case of my statement above too. Here we have the passage, and we disagree about the meaning of the verse. Possibly because native speaking Greeks didn't understand their own language as well as 19th century American revivalists.

    Of course it is God who chooses the saints, the Church recognizing someone as a saint isn't the choosing, nor is a lack of recognition considered in anyway a rejection of someone's sainthood. A saint is anyone who is part of the community of the faithful to God, living or dead.

    I certainly hope so, I'm not a huge fan of the discipline.
     
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  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    LOL....it shows. Once a person is indoctrinated with Catholic beliefs, especially from childhood, its hard to extract them.
    I have studied the Bible with many Catholic people over the years and found their knowledge of the Scriptures to be about zero. They absorbed what the Bible said and told me that they had never been taught any of the important things. It was blind ritual and mindless repetition that gave them no sense of the reality of Jehovah (Yahweh)....someone who is rarely mentioned in Christendom, but mentioned a lot by Jesus.

    As a history of the foretold apostasy, it is vital to demonstrate just how far they have strayed from the truth....and how quickly the lies became accepted as truth.

    Jesus gave the parable of the "wheat and the weeds" to demonstrate just who sowed the seeds of false Christianity, and how vast the field was where he sowed them. (Matthew 13:36-42) He also showed what their fate would be. :(

    You have to know what you are looking at.....history is not kind to the Catholic church. They have not used the authority of Scripture to promote their teachings, but have twisted the Scriptures to suit their adopted doctrines.

    Jesus himself always quoted scripture in his responses, and so did the apostles. The truth was contained in God's word. (John 17:17) There was to be nothing added from men. The church claims to have authority from God to teach whatever they like. A study of the Bible itself will reveal that none of their doctrines originated from the Bible. It was nothing new. (Matthew 15:7-9) RCC teachings can all be traced back to false worship, especially Roman sun worship.

    Most of the world's non-Christian religions have a central core of teachings.....a multiplicity of gods, especially trinities....belief in the immortality of the human soul....and a hell of fiery torment for the wicked after death. Christendom shares all those beliefs with those pagan religions. Doesn't your own adopted religion teach these things.....perhaps there was a reason why you felt comfortable with it...?

    Please tell me what I have "painted" that the RCC did not paint itself? The pictures (worth a thousand words) that I posted, do not lie. There can be no justification for these blatant departures from what Christ taught.

    If you say so......I do not find that those who have difficulty settling on all of an organization's religious beliefs can be fully committed, since many have one foot in the church and the other in science. Catholicism perhaps gives them a place to entertain both? :shrug: It has no issues with evolution apparently.

    And to you.......but most of all I wish for people to know the truth and where their religious choices (or lack of them) will lead. Peace in this world is hard to come by....but I believe that better days are coming once God has cleaned up mess that humans have made down here. The results are recorded in Revelation 21:3-4.
     
  7. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Active Member

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    Yeah, that's true, but unfortunately people like that not having faith is a bias in itself, just as those with dogma set from long before have their own bias. There's no such thing as unbiased or being objective.

    I believe in archeology and philology and trying to reconstruct history, though.
     
  8. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Active Member

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    One prominent cult member I remember as Marcion: Marcion preached that the benevolent God of the Gospel who sent Jesus Christ into the world as the savior was the true Supreme Being, different from and opposed to the malevolent demiurge or creator god, identified with the Hebrew God of the Old Testament. Then there were the Ebionites: The Ebionites embraced an adoptionist Christology, thus understanding Jesus of Nazareth as a mere man who, by virtue of his righteousness, was chosen by God to be the last true prophet who heralds the coming Kingdom of God on Earth. A majority of the Ebionites rejected as heresies the proto-orthodox Christian beliefs in Jesus's divinity and virgin birth.[3] They maintained that Jesus was the natural son of Joseph and Mary who became the Messiah because he obeyed the Jewish law. The was plenty of Gnosticism going about, of which Marcion was one if I remember right.
     
  9. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Active Member

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    To me a secondary meaning is that false interpretations would be cast away like the weeds at the time of the end. Scripture has more than one meaning in my opinion.
     
  10. Neuropteron

    Neuropteron Active Member

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    Dear Emu,
    I appreciate your fervor in defending your faith and expressing your ire against those that criticize it, however wouldn't you be better served by offering an intelligent response to the allegations instead ?
    This of course is only possible if you have one.

    The alternative, attacking the writer of the O.P, or his alleged faith only goes to establish a lack of understanding or inability to communicate a rational and logical response to the question raised.

    To reiterate:
    The O.P mentioned the fact that Christendom and Catholics was practicing or accepting (by not removing) spiritism, witchcraft, tarot cards, worship of the dead and Halloween. I gave 2 examples demonstrating why I believed this to be true.

    The question was: can those practicing these things still be considered Christians?

    You choose to question my allegations that witchcraft was accepted by the Catholic church. That is a perfectly acceptable reply.

    What is not acceptable is that, instead of refuting my claim you presumptuously demanded more proof and required me to do more research so I could (ostensibly) attain your level of knowledge before continuing to discuss these things at your level. (bad form)

    However, since you have at no time refuted my comments concerning the link between witchcraft and Catholicism, I can only conclude that whilst you reject this claim you lack the means to substantiate the reason for doing so.

    Since I am not commissioned to impede your illusions I am perfectly happy to let you nurture them peacefully.

    I really enjoy our playful repartee and I'm looking forward to your next broadside.

    Yours faithfully

    Neuropteron
     
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  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I can never understand why a former Protestant would ever entertain Catholicism....for the simple reason that the Protestant movement revealed just how much the Catholic church had taken liberties with the Bible.

    The world has much to thank Marin Luther for....

    The church's teachings on Mary are nowhere to be found in scripture....even Jesus himself gave his mother no prominence. There was not even any hint of an immaculate conception for Mary either. The fact that she was "ever virgin" is borrowed from ancient "mother goddess" worship.....which can be traced back to Babylon with Nimrod and his mother Semiramis.
    It is very ancient and we can clearly see the resemblance of the Catholic Madonna and child, to the originals.

    [​IMG]

    Nimrod's mother Semiramis was the one who deified her son after his death, and took on the title of "mother of God" for herself.
    She was worshipped in many cultures under different names. Catholicism adopted her.

    Was Mary "ever virgin"?
    Matthew 1:25 speaking of Joseph....
    "but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus."

    Mary and Joseph had at least six other children after Jesus.
    Mark 6:3...
    " Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him." (NRSVCE)

    How much did you ever compare Catholic teachings with the Bible? How were you persuaded to abandon the Bible in favor of the church's take on things that were never part of original Christian teachings?

    Was it more about what you came to....or what you left? I know that for me what I left was so distasteful that I vowed never to set foot inside Christendom again......but I did not swap one set of lies for another. I actually found the God whom Jesus worshipped....the one who was never taught about in Christendom. He didn't have three heads who could all hold a conversation with each other whilst in different places....[​IMG]
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Who convinced you that the traditions of the Catholic church were authentic?
    Wasn't it that very thing that led Israel down the wrong track? What did Jesus say about their traditions?
    Matthew 15:8-9...
    "This people honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me
    9 And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men."
    (Douay)

    If you cannot back up what you believe by scripture, then all your faith has to be in men....not God.
    And if what you believe is proven to have originated in false religion, then you have a dilemma, according to 2 Corinthians 6:14-18...
    "Stop becoming unevenly yoked with unbelievers. What partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness? What fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony exists between the Messiah and Beliar, [the devil] or what do a believer and an unbeliever have in common? 16 What agreement can a temple of God make with idols? For we are the temple of the living God, just as God said:
    “I will live and walk among them.
    I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.”
    17 Therefore,
    Get away from them
    and separate yourselves from them,”
    declares the Lord,
    “and don’t touch anything unclean.

    Then I will welcome you.
    18 I will be your Father,
    and you will be my sons and daughters,”

    declares the Lord Almighty." (ISV)

    If we want to be counted in among God's "sons and daughters", then we have to separate ourselves from false religious teachings.....otherwise we will suffer rejection by God. We become "unclean" in the spiritual sense by not avoiding those contaminations. I believe that there will be great pain for those who do not obey that directive.

    Yes.....the man Jesus Christ...the only man we should be taking notice of. (John 17:17) All we know about Jesus and what he taught, is from the scriptures....who can claim to know more than he did?
    All of our instruction comes from Christ and his 12 apostles......not from outside of that arrangement...ever.

    All that we needed to know is there in God's word....who told you we needed more?
    Romans 15:4...
    "For everything that was written long ago was written to instruct us, so that we might have hope through the endurance and encouragement that the Scriptures give us." (ISV)

    If only people would listen to Jesus instead of a corrupted church.....isn't that describing the same situation in the first century? All the Jews had to do to be saved was to listen to Jesus instead of their corrupt religious leaders. What was the outcome for them? (Matthew 23:37-39)

    Some churches? There was just one "church" in the beginning, which had congregations in various places. The church is the people, not the institution or the building. They had to love one another to be identified as Christ's disciples. (John 13:34-35) and yet how was that shown during the two world wars of last century? Catholic killed Catholic, and Protestant killed Protestant, as if loving your brother was less important than loving your nation. (Matthew 5:43-44) Whose side was God on? Neither because both were disobeying Christ.

    1 John 4:20-21...
    "Whoever says, “I love God,” but hates his brother is a liar. The one who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love the God whom he has not seen. 21 And this is the commandment that we have from him: the person who loves God must also love his brother."

    It meant more than that. It was a beginning of a new life course...one chosen of his own free will. It was indeed a symbolic death and resurrection, from a former life to a new one, that each Christian had to choose to undergo. A death to their former life, and rising to a new life in Christ.
    Unlike the Jews, who were born into a dedicated relationship with God, Christians had to choose a life of dedication, and it was sealed with baptism to show publicly that one had taken that vow and begun to tread that path, fully.
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I had to look this up....since we seldom use terminology like this. The Bible is our sole authority on everything.

    "Can we separate dogma from doctrine?
    Dogma is not in fact doctrine, but could be defined as “a body of doctrines.” Most importantly, dogma is made up of assertions “formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church.” For Christianity, the proclaiming body is not a church, but the Church, universal.
    "

    For us, the Catholic church is not "the church universal".....but proved by its conduct to be just the opposite.

    It tells us a lot more than that IMO.....Jesus is said to be the judge appointed by the Father and he will not allow sentiment to cloud his judgment.....just claiming his as "Lord" is not enough....

    Matthew 7:21-23...
    "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers."

    Who then is "doing the will of his Father"? Jesus always did the will of his Father, so following his example is key to our future. (1 Peter 2:21) Those found NOT doing the will of God, will have no future. "Evildoers" have no place in God's Kingdom. It is a sobering fact.

    Would you like to tell me what, out of all Catholic doctrines, is supported by the Bible? I am hard pressed to find any TBH. I have already mentioned several that have no basis in scripture. I can make a list if you like......

    There is only 'one true God' .....
    "And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (John 17:3) Jesus was praying to his Father and identified him as "the only true God" without including himself.

    1 Corinthians 8:5-6...
    "For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."

    The apostles were not in any doubt as to who was their God....

    Or the translators were so biased that they neglected to differentiate between "theos" and "ho theos". How can the Word be "with" God, and "BE" God at the same time? Does God talk to himself, pray to himself and send himself to other places? Seriously....? :shrug:

    That is not exactly what the Bible says....The saints are the chosen ones.....to whom God gives evidence that he has selected them for a specific purpose in connection with his Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) They are anointed by God's spirit as a token of their choosing. They alone go to heaven.....because not everyone has "the heavenly calling". (Hebrews 3:1)
     
  14. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Ehrman was raised Christian, all his biases were in favour of Christianity before he studied the Christian scripture and found the problems with them.
     
  15. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    When there is an intelligent allegation made.

    Levying empty accusations sourced only in your bias also betrays a lack of capability or desire to honestly communicate and produce a rational and logical argument.

    You have no evidence, because there is none, that the website you cited has anything to do with the Catholic Church. Acknowledge the charge as spurious or don't prattle to me about integrity and the etiquette of discourse.
     
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  16. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Trust me, I didn't like it. But, it is where God and reason have led me.

    In the sense that there is no reason to believe that Nimrod and Semiramis were in any way connected? Especially considering that Semiramis lived in 800 B.C. and Nimrod might be thousands of years earlier.

    Are you saying because mother and child is common in religious iconography, that the Catholic Madonna and Child are necessarily based on them or incorrect? Then you show a bunch of different figures from religions spanning time and place as if that inherently evidences something beyond appearances. That seems a shallow way to understand things, what similarities for instance do Isis and Horus have compared to Mary and Jesus. I think you'll find very few.

    We know when Semiramis lived. She could not have been the source for religions older than her. Please provide evidence that Catholicism "adopted" her. I think you will be required to resort to tea leaf reading supposition and projection. No canon brings the worship of Mary, much less an old Assyrian queen.

    I'm going to assume, based on your prior arguments from translation, that you know in the original language that the word translated as "until" had no demand that the state of being change after the until and that the word for brother and sister also included close relationships like cousins and, more pertinently, step siblings.

    Always. As I said, I was a Bible-only protestant, and the start was finding our that being Bible-only is contradicted by the Bible itself. That my own scriptures said follow the traditions that weren't written down. If I only follow the Bible, I disregard half of that statement to no end except obstinacy. If I want to follow the beliefs and practices of the first Christians, the first thing to disregard is Sola Scriptura.

    What I came to, I wasn't driven out of protestantism and in truth I was quite comfortable and even on a path to attend the seminary; I was dragged out.
     
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  17. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    God. He broke me down, almost literally. It was rough; as I've said, I did not want to go.

    Then back up your Biblical canon with the scripture. Show me where in the Bible it says what is in the Bible. Otherwise, your claim applies to yourself.

    Jesus certainly didn't tell anyone to only follow writings that hadn't been written yet.

    That's not true at all. All that we know about Jesus and what He taught is first from the mouths of the Apostles to the churches they founded. You claim to know more than they did, that everything they said that they didn't write down is obsolete and meaningless, even when they specifically say to follow the things we said but did not write down. That all of the acts and sayings of Jesus that "even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written" count for nothing.

    The scriptures. "Hold fast to the traditions we have taught you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

    I believe the scripture.

    Unfortunately, those congregations are no longer all in ecclesiastic union. Regardless, you are picking at the mote in order to ignore the plank. The Church had authority and teachings before there was a New Testament. Not every congregation is a 19th century innovation.

    The Bible is not your authority on what's in the Bible.

    I'll further respond to your posts, including perhaps refining some of the things I say in this one, later in the (EST) evening. Sorry, I have an appointment I'm running out of time for.
     
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  18. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Just a brief explanation:

    One of the JW's here and I, per a mutual agreement, do not directly respond to each other's posts because of a rather "difficult" past history with each other. Even as the Dalai Lama admitted, sometimes some distancing is better than conflict.
     
  19. alypius

    alypius Member

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    Isn't the burden on the one advancing a claim to provide evidence?
     
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  20. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Active Member

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    Didn't know that.
     
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