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Featured Is Catholicism a Christian religion ?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Neuropteron, Jun 4, 2021.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Have you ever bothered to ask any Protestant converts to Catholicism and accepted that the answers they give are true for them?
     
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  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes...right here on this thread. See post #156 & 157....for the answers....

    Here is what I see in all of this.....

    For all humans who are alive at the judgment, their choice of worship and their choice of deity will be the determining factor in whether they will be permitted to live, as citizens of God's incoming Kingdom, or whether they will forfeit their lives forever. There are no other choices according to the Bible....perhaps that is why some abandon sola scriptura. They seek choices that are not offered.

    Like the choice that God put before Israel at Deuteronomy 30:15-20. He told them to choose life.....but the determining factor was their obedience to his commandments, statutes and ordinances. It is all God ever asked of his human creation.

    There are not many roads to life.....only one, (Matthew 7:13-14) so if we do not choose wisely, the path we follow may well lead to a destination that is the very opposite to where we wanted to go....all because we didn't listen and obey.....or we listened and obeyed the wrong people.

    Jesus said that his sheep (though "few" in numbers) would hear his voice and believe in him....thereafter, obeying his teachings. But those who did not believe and who did not obey what he taught, are identified as those who are not his sheep. These will not gain everlasting life, but the opposite....everlasting death.
    We get one shot at this.

    John 10:24-28...
    "Then the Jews surrounded him and began to say to him: “How long are you going to keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them: “I told you, and yet you do not believe. The works that I am doing in my Father’s name, these bear witness about me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

    Those who are counted among Jesus' sheep will never have anything to fear, because Jesus will protect them. No such protection will be offered to those who reject him and who worship false gods....or who falsely worship the true God, as Israel fell to doing many times.

    Christendom does not, IMO, worship the God of Jesus Christ. They worship a god of their own construction, a triune deity that does not exist in all of scripture.....but no one will take notice of the warnings about these things unless they are part of Jesus' flock. He identifies them as those who are "doing the will of his Father". (Matthew 7:21-23)

    Since the outcome is so dire, it is not a simple case of allowing people to make their choices in ignorance of the facts.....once informed however, they can never claim ignorance again......then accountability kicks in.

    "There is nothing new under the sun", Solomon said.....and the fact is that history is repeating because humans never learn from the mistakes of those who have gone before them. (1 Corinthians 10:5-11)
     
  3. Neuropteron

    Neuropteron Active Member

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    Hi,
    In a court of law it would be (to a degree), but this is a discussion forum.
    Even then it can be a work in progress. Evidence is brought in stages as the discussion progresses and contra arguments are produced.

    If for instance someone claims to believe in evolution, would it be reasonable for me to force him to prove his claim by giving me evidence, when he does give me some reason for his position I would badger him to do more research instead of discussing the evidence he produced so far?
     
  4. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    This is just one convert to Catholicism. I think more than one is really required to get a good handle.

    What is also obvious is that these two posts don't really have a narrative of Emu's journey from Protestantism to Catholicism. It is only the small answers to direct questions. IOW we get only hints, bits and pieces of that testimony, not what would be the rich, full, detailed story that really gives us an understanding of how it could occur.
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Would you like an inquisition? o_O

    I was raised Anglican...a church that separated from Catholicism in 1535, but if you entered the “High Church” of Anglicanism today, you would hardly tell the difference between it and a Catholic Church building.

    From my perspective, for a Protestant to go back to Roman Catholicism is a step backwards (although not a big one). Why? Because the Reformation achieved many things....it broke the corrupt power of the Roman church and exposed many of her doctrines as completely unscriptural. Not only unscriptural, but actually pagan in origin. It also put the Bible back into the hands of the people. But they did not go far enough with the purging.....they kept a core of beliefs that permeate almost all religions practiced in the world.....belief in multiple deities (especially trinities), immortality of the human soul, and a place of fiery punishment for the wicked. All entertain one or more of those elements.
    But the Reformation also fractured the church into literally thousands of bickering sects, creating much confusion and dissension in what was supposed to be a single body of Christ’s disciples.

    Our scripture tells us not to mix the truth of God’s word with false religious ideas, comparing them to ‘light and darkness’, or ‘truth and lies’......opposites, like ‘Christ and the devil’.

    Christianity is not many paths leading to a desired destination....the Bible, which is our only authority, confirms that there is only one road to life, and it is ‘cramped and narrow’, meaning that it is restrictive and difficult to travel on. Those who want to by-pass the difficulties, can change lanes but then find themselves on a road to nowhere.

    We are all either on the road to life or the road to death, according to the teachings of Jesus Christ. No other way will lead us to where we want to go, but none of us will know which road we are on, until “the end” comes.....no matter what we call ourselves or which deity (or deities) we worship or even if we acknowledge no deities at all.....God knows those who belong to him. They will be those ”doing the will of the Father”.....they will all be gathered into one united global brotherhood.

    That is how I believe God chooses the future citizens of his incoming Kingdom....not by nationality....not by what religious label they wear....or how “good” they are (as humanitarians) because all God has ever asked of his intelligent creation (both human and angelic) is obedience....willing, heartfelt compliance with the will of the Creator.

    God is looking for those who can simply follow his instructions without digressing or putting their own will ahead of his. Like it or not, we have to please God, because our eternal future is in his hands, and he has given us his written instructions, so we could know what is expected of us. Israel failed utterly in this and so has Christendom. Exactly the same pattern of behavior is seen in both. They simply could not do as they were told.

    It will be those who have obeyed all of the teachings of the one sent to redeem us, and it requires removing ourselves from all connection to those who practice false worship. You can’t do that if you don’t know what false worship looks like. It’s not like “shopping” for a religion that suits us.....we have to find those who are worshipping in a way that suits God. He tells us what is required of us, so we will have no excuse at the end of the day....
     
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  6. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Thank you for your post.

    I realize that you think going from Protestantism to Catholicism is a "step backwards. I'll let you hash that point out with the Catholics on the board. I personally don't have a dog in the race.

    As to Anglo-Catholicism, I realize that pretty much the only thing that separates it from the RCC is the lack of acknowledgement of the authority of the Pope and Church, with the exception of say the ecumenical councils.

    But then again, the heart of the Reformation IS the rejection of the Pope and the authority of the Church.
     
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  7. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Speaking for myself and from my experience; I was not a Christian when I was a Catholic.
    I was raised in the Catholic Church. My entire immediate family and all my extended relatives were and for the most part still are Catholics. I drifted from the Catholic religion during my twenties and in my early thirties I came to personally know and trust Jesus Christ, was saved and born again to new life.
    That was when I became a Christian.
    One brother has also trusted Jesus Christ Alone as his Savior (as opposed to a church/ religion), and is a Christian now.
     
    #167 InChrist, Jun 14, 2021
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  8. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    @Deeje,

    Sorry for the delay. I've become a little ill. I'm not going to be able to refine any previous statements, but I will finish responding.

    Of course it does. That's why I said "for instance", to give an example as opposed to a full accounting for every bit.

    Abortion is sin. Christ is our sole savior. Baptism for the remission of sins. Confession of sins. That the Gospel should be spread all over the world, to every people. Christ was begotten, not made. The laying of hands for passing of authority. I mean really, I could go on for hours here. The idea that the vast majority of the Catholic Church's doctrines is without Biblical basis is a gross exaggeration.

    That is true, when Jesus asked Thomas who He was, there was no hesitation. "My Lord and My God".

    Translation has nothing to do with the native Greek speakers of the late 1st and early 2nd century.

    That question is the first step on the path that ends at the Trinity.

    The Bible says that the saints are "all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus".
     
  9. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    For me it was that it is ahistorical, inherently self-contradicting, and that the texts of the scriptures don't support it.

    Ha. I'd rather not. Though if you have more questions, I'm quite willing to answer.

    First, I have consistently been arguing against multiple divine beings in this thread. I'm not the one who suggests that John says Jesus is "a" God, a separate divinity from "the" God.
    Second, I challenge you to produce a single trinity. There are many groups of three, whether modalistic, monistic or plain polytheistic, but I've not seen a trinity before.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    OK, I'll keep the ball rolling....

    For some reason I feel drawn to you....must be the Emu.....I am an Aussie after all. Are there emus in Kentucky?

    I'm really sorry to hear that...I hope you recover soon and that you have not been struck down with the dreaded virus.

    I guess its not the what so much, as the how.....and why.
    Is abortion always a sin or are there circumstances where it may be the only choice? It should definitely NOT be a form of birth control, and once conception has taken place, a life has come into existence that should be precious to its parents.

    Christ is our savior....what does that mean? How does he save us? From what does he save us?

    Baptism is a necessary step, but is infant baptism something taught in the Bible? Is it a sprinkling with water?

    To whom do we confess our sins and with what result? Is all that is necessary the repetition of mindless words to obtain absolution? Is that what God wants from us? Is that what Jesus said to do? Where did the rosary beads come from?

    What is the "gospel" that needs to be spread all over the world, and who is doing it as Jesus instructed? I think we touched on a few of these things before....

    What does it mean that Christ was "the only begotten son" of God?

    The laying on of hands was done by the original apostles, but there is nothing to suggest that it continued after their death.

    I could go on for hours too......the details are what matter.

    What did "theos" mean to a Greek speaker in the first century?
    The Greeks had no word for a god who had no name. All of their gods had names and collectively they were just called "the gods", but when it came to the one God of the Jews, whose name the Jews had refused to utter, the only way to identify him was the use of the definite article..."the" ("ho" in Greek) So there was "theos" (god) and "ho theos" (THE God).

    The basic meaning of the term "theos" is "Mighty One"....(so not necessarily a deity) and since there is no other exclamation of this kind in the scriptures, we have to take into consideration the situation that prompted Thomas to say that. Was he calling Jesus his God? Or was he just shocked? Did the other apostles believe that Jesus was God? Was a shocked and doubting apostle's exclamation a reliable basis for a doctrine?

    Matthew 16:13-17...
    "Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare′a Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli′jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven."

    This speaks for itself IMO....there is not a single mention of "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" in any verse of scripture....but there is mention of "God the Father".

    In the Greek Interlinear you can see clearly that two "gods" are spoken about in John 1:1. Only one has the definite article. So "the Word was with the God" but he was not "the God", he was a product of "the God"...a creation as Revelation 3:14 states. Colossians 1:15, also calls Jesus "The firstborn of all creation".
    The immortal Father has always existed, but the son is "begotten" by his Father....one who is begotten needs a begetter who existed first.

    John 1:18 also tells us something else that is interesting to those who consider Jesus to be a God/man......

    "No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known."
    "No one has ever seen God"....that is a pretty definite statement....how many people saw Jesus who was, according to trinitarian belief, supposed to be God in the flesh?

    Now where you see the words "only Son" in that verse, it actually says "monogenes theos" which is "only begotten god". Its not correctly translated there in the RSVCE. So in John 1:1, if "theos" is translated "God" then why translate "son" in verse 18? It should also be translated "son" in verse 1, rendering it..."In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the Word was the Son". You see...? The Word was the Son who became flesh...a divinely created being...a "Mighty One"? Yes! But not the Almighty God.

    Translation has everything to do with understanding all scripture. Context is also important.Original language words are now better understood and easy to research.

    That path is a blasphemous dead end according to my studies. The First Commandment is breached by placing another "god" in place of the Father. Making him out to be 'one God with three heads' or 'three personalities' doesn't fit with the one God of Abraham.

    Jesus did not serve such a God....nor did he ever claim to be part of a 'godhead'. Even after his return to heaven, Jesus still called his Father "my God"......can God worship an equal part of himself in heaven? (Revelation 3:12) Can God pray to an equal part of himself that is somewhere else? Can one part of God know things that the others don't? Please explain....

    The Bible says that the "saints" are the "chosen ones"....those with the "heavenly calling".....not all Christians will go to heaven because that is not where God designed us to live. If you read the creation account in the first three chapters of Genesis, can you tell me where you see a natural cause of death? I believe that God created us to live forever on earth....he already had a family of spirit beings in heaven who were all present when God, assisted by his firstborn, created the Universe. (Genesis 1:26)

    Do you need a list of the things where the Catholic church fails to keep the commandments of God whilst professing faith in Jesus? Can you tell me why Jesus is either portrayed as a dead man, or a helpless baby in Catholic imagery? Nothing to do with the mighty King he is at present preparing to cleanse the earth of all who teach and act in opposition to what he taught.

    A group of three is a trinity. Just because they don't inhabit one body doesn't alter the threesome. Christendom's trinity is rather unique and insanely illogical. It is not formulated on scripture (by the church's own admission) and it took over 300 years for it to become official church doctrine.

    If God has multiple personalities and we are created in his image, then when humans display it, why is it called a "disorder"? :confused:
     
    #170 Deeje, Jun 14, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
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  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I gotta leave shortly, but let me just mention again that the Trinitarian concept simply does not posit three "gods" as that would be polytheism. Instead, at least as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of God but are not precisely God in a literal sense. Matter of fact, there are numerous instances in the NT whereas Jesus shows that he is not literally God, such as when he said he did not know when the end of times would be as only "my Father" would know that.

    Also, I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church but now am a Catholic, so... :shrug:

    Gotta go for now.


    *A short note to mention that Deeje and I do not directly converse with one another, so one may have to repeat something she might posit if you expect me to respond to that concept as the vast majority of the time I do not read her posts.
     
  12. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    What substantial thing is different for you now as a Protestant than it was as a Catholic? From the Catholics I've talked to, they believe the same basics (Nicene Creed) and have an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ. The only difference seems to be the authority of the Church (which includes the Bible) verses the authority of the Bible alone. Is there anything other than that for you?
     
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  13. Neuropteron

    Neuropteron Active Member

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    Hi,
    Thank you for this information.
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You have to go back in history.....Jesus and the apostles foretold that a great apostasy would take place with men taking over the church and introducing false doctrines formulated by men, but inspired by the devil.

    If all of Christendom descended from that one apostate church, then all are of the same ilk. They all accept the false doctrines formulated by the church that have no basis in scripture but are based on the "commands of men". This is exactly what Judaism did and why Jesus was sent to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"...God already knew form their appalling history that the religious leaders were incorrigible. (Matthew 15:7-9; Matthew ch 23)
     
  15. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    That is inaccurate. The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus is "true God from true God" and "consubstantial with the Father".

    Does this mean you won't be retracting your dishonest accusation?
     
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  16. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    We have a few farms/petting zoos and such that keep them. None in the wild, though.

    Direct abortion, which is at heart the unlawful ending of a human life, is always considered a sin.

    Abortion which occurs as a secondary outcome of a necessary medical procedure is given different consideration.

    It means that by His incarnation, death and resurrection, He has altered the fundamental truths of existence that would normally consign us to the natural conclusion of our sins. He saves us from our broken and corrupted selves.

    As for how He saves us, the Bible speaks a lot of propitiatory sacrifice and blood expiation. That God's justice as would be applied to our savior's flock has been satisfied for all time and all people.

    Infant baptism is neither taught nor decried in the Bible. We have some instances of "households" but it is unknown and unknowable whether or not they had children without the intellectual capability to assent to Christ. Jesus also said to let "the little children come unto me, for the Kingdom of Heaven is for such as these".

    If baptism is necessary, which we both agree with, and we aren't to stop little children from coming to Christ and the Kingdom is for the little children, on what grounds do we deny them? Do we judge their soul incapable of accepting Christ because their body is not yet developed? What's the point of rejection of baptism? My Baptist church set the earliest at 13, as the age of reason. What about people who tragically will never mentally develop past a certain age, are they denied Baptism?

    Primarily to God, but also as the Bible says "to each other" (with the intention that it ultimately is a confession to God is the Catholic understanding), with the result of grace being poured out on us. :)

    No, mindless repetition of words is worthless. What obtains absolution is the grace of God alone.

    The rosary is a 13th century innovation by Dominic, of the Dominican order fame. It is not intended to be mindlessly repeated either.

    The Good News that death has been defeated, the consequences of our sin averted, that Christ the savior is come and is accepting all, man or woman and greek or jew, into the Kingdom of Heaven.

    That He generates from the eternal divine substance as opposed to being created, and is the only Son to do so.

    Given your post it begs the question, what does Christ's nature as begotten Son of God mean to you? You don't appear to believe that it reflects on Christ's origin as distinct from creation.

    That's just historically inaccurate. We know the apostolic successors continued the practice, because we have multiple churches with an unbroken line back to them.

    We can tell that by looking at what first and second century Greek speakers understood those passages to say, their reactions to the passages.

    While we as faithful Christians know there is only one true God. So if Jesus is "a god", He is either the one true God or a false God.

    Which John specifically goes out of his was to make sure you know is not the case. "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

    English translations have nothing to do with first century Greek speakers reading scriptures written in first century Koine Greek.

    Neither of those statements are clearly written in the Bible. How do you interpret John 14 2-3 "My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." Does that just apply only to the Apostles and the secret elect?

    He isn't. Christ in Majesty and Christ Pantocrator are West/East depictions of Christ in glory that I can recall off the top of my head. The Crucifix is very common as a reminder of what our Lord suffered for our sake, should we not recall the suffering we put Jesus through by our sin? The nativity is popular for the obvious reason that people love babies, birth signifies the new life to come, and the humility, meekness, and gentleness of our Lord are shown in His days as a baby.

    God doesn't have multiple personalities :p He is multiple persons.
     
  17. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I'll let you argue this out with the Catholic Christians since I have no dog in the race.

    As for Judaism, you have only to read Hosea to know that God remained faithful to us, even when we were not faithful to God. The book of Chronicles ends with us triumphantly returning to the promised land and rebuilding the temple. And the Babylonian Captivity cured us forever of idolatry -- never again did we descend into that temptation.
     
  18. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It was and is accurate as the Church uses "essence" a great deal since the earliest NT manuscripts were in Koine Greek, thus the Church in the diaspora would be very familiar with that approach using "essence" that had been formulated by Plato and especially Aristotle.

    With using "essence", the concept of Jesus being "true God from true God" is not removed-- quite the reverse actually. Remember, that a working definition of "essence" is that the whole is greater than just a sum of its parts. Thus, the fact that Jesus was born of a woman does not mean he was not of the "essence" of God.

    And, since there are the words "consubstantial with the Father", this basically implies that Jesus and the Father are separate entities if we exclude "essence" from that formulation. But when we plug "essence" in, then this makes sense.
     
  19. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    I wasn't targeting the use of the word essence. I was targeting the statement that the Church teaches that Jesus isn't God in a literal sense.
     
  20. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Again, it depends on how one is using the term "literal".

    The Church basically has studied what would become the New Testament for almost 2000 years now, and I would suggest that they well know and recognize numerous verses whereas Jesus is identified as being at least somewhat different than God, such as the discussion about the "end of times" whereas Jesus says he doesn't know as only the Father knows when that would be. Therefore, within this sense, they cannot be literally the same, thus I certainly don't think the Church missed that.
     
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