Is Bahai a real faith?

[TashaN]

The verse you asked about can be found in the A.Yusuf Ali English translation of Holy Qur'an:

Read Surih 5 verse 50:

"Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.."

How can the people of the Gospel judge if the Gospel was corrupted?

- Art

[50] Do they then seek after a judgment of (the Days of) Ignorance? But who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah?

(Quran 5:50)

 

[TashaN]

I'll try to get you a link to the Arabic Hidden Words in Arabic if you like.

I found the arabic one too at the same website.

Thanks in advance ..

The original Qur'an was written in Arabic without diacritical marks. In this language the word Khaatam was written. Without diacritical marks the word could be pronounced other ways. This results in some confusion today when "Khatam" is read, because it could be "khatim", if the diacriticals were not present.

WHo decided where to place the diacriticals and which ones to use? This happened decades to centuries after Umar's original recision. What was right and what was wrong and what might be misread when the words could be one word or another?
Regards,
Scott

This is the miracle of Quran.

It's not a litreal scripture like Torah but it's an oral revelation and Muslims acknowledge it as an oral one in the first place and many "sahabat" of prophet Mohammed memorized it and Allah already said:

[9] We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
(Quran 15:9)

Therefore, how Muslims read the Quran is the same how Allah wanted us to read it.

 

[arthra]

You can say that submission to God is the only religion and we would agree with that..

Baha'is also accept that they submit to God.

There is really only one religion of God we believe that has been manifested at various times in various countries and cultures. One only ancient faith...

But the issue which originally was brought up here was whether the Baha'i Faith is a "real" faith and I think this has been answered here...

It is not part of a Zionist conspiracy to destabilize Islam.

Baha'i Faith has it's own Writings and we also respect the previous Revelations. Baha'is have their own Holy Places in the Middle East and places of pilgrimage.

All Baha'is ask of our Muslim friends is freedom of belief and practise. We respect Muslims and do not attack them.

Prophet Muhammad made very clear:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion:

Truth stands out clear from error:

Who ever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks.

Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Allah is the Protector of those who have faith..."

- Quran 2:256-257

(A Yusuf Ali translation)

 

[arthra]

[50] Do they then seek after a judgment of (the Days of) Ignorance? But who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah?

(Quran 5:50)

There are variations in versification but you will also find it as verse 47 in Surih V:

"Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein"

"Wal-yahkum 'Ahlul-Injiili bimaaa 'anzalal-laahu fiih."

So again the question asked is this.. How can the People of the Gospel be held accountable if the Gospel was corrupted?

Our view is that the Gospel was not corrupted but only the interpretations of the priests who based these on their own corrupt and idle fancies and vain imaginations.

- Art

 

[TashaN]

You can say that submission to God is the only religion and we would agree with that..

Baha'is also accept that they submit to God.

Tell what do you say when you start your praying?

Muslims says: Allah Akbar, what about Baha'i faith?

- you recognize Allah as the only creator but do not acknowledge Mohammed as a prophet for your religion but you deal with him as the previous prophets.
- praying is not the same.
- fasting is not the same.
- Zakat (charity) is not the same.
- and finally Hajj is not the same.

So, where is the relationship now with the submition to Allah?

You don't even acknowledge the Quran as a valid source for your religion because Allah clearly said as i mentioned before:

[85] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (Quran 3:85)

 

[TashaN]

There are variations in versification but you will also find it as verse 47 in Surah 5:

"Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein"

"Wal-yahkum 'Ahlul-Injiili bimaaa 'anzalal-laahu fiih."

So again the question asked is this.. How can the People of the Gospel be held accountable if the Gospel was corrupted?

Our view is that the Gospel was not corrupted but only the interpretations of the priests who based these on their own corrupt and idle fancies and vain imaginations.

The verse means that they have to follow what Mohammed "peace be upon him" teach (Islam) because they know that his prophecies is so clear and plain in the Gospel.

Moreover, they have to judge by what Allah hath revealed but not with what they did with thier own hands in the sciptures.

When we say it's corrupted so that dosn't mean that we reject all but that they edited it.

Brother art,

Are you telling me that you agree about what they say about our beloved prophets?

If you believe that what i'll post now is accurate so the thread will end here because you have no respect for the Apostels and Prophets of God "peace be upon them all".

Genesis 19:30-38: Lot(as) having incestuous sexual relations with his own 2 daughters and bearing offspring. (Disgraceful to attribute such an act to one of God’s messengers)


Genesis 38:1-30: Judah comitting incest with his daughter-in-law and producing Pharez And Zerah, the future ancestors of Jesus Christ "peace be upon him".



Genesis 9:20-24: Noah being drunk and appearing naked in front of his sons




Exodus 32:3-4: Aaron shaping a golden calf for the Israelites to worship

1 Kings 11:9-10: Solomon worshiping false gods

2 Samuel 11:4-5: David committing adultery



- You still believe it's accurate 100% ? just an answer with a "Yes" or "No" will be enough.

- Was this what Allah hath revealed in the Torah and the Gospel?

 

[Popeyesays]

Tell what do you say when you start your praying?

Muslims says: Allah Akbar, what about Baha'i faith?

- you recognize Allah as the only creator but do not acknowledge Mohammed as a prophet for your religion but you deal with him as the previous prophets.
- praying is not the same.
- fasting is not the same.
- Zakat (charity) is not the same.
- and finally Hajj is not the same.

So, where is the relationship now with the submition to Allah?

You don't even acknowledge the Quran as a valid source for your religion because Allah clearly said as i mentioned before:

[85] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (Quran 3:85)

Yet the Qur'an says Abraham was a Muslim and submissive to God, without Muhammed to guide him.

"O thou spiritual friend! Thou hast asked the wisdom of prayer. Know thou that prayer is indispensable and obligatory, and man under no pretext whatsoever is excused from performing the prayer unless he be mentally unsound, or an insurmountable obstacle prevent him. The wisdom of prayer is this: That it causeth a connection between the servant and the True One, because in that state man with all heart and soul turneth his face towards His Highness the Almighty, seeking His association and desiring His love and compassion."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 368)
Here are the obligatory prayer's openings,
(in entirety)
SHORT OBLIGATORY PRAYER
TO BE RECITED ONCE IN TWENTY-FOUR HOURS, AT NOON
I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth. There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.
(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. v)

MEDIUM OBLIGATORY PRAYER
TO BE RECITED DAILY, IN THE MORNING, AT NOON, AND IN THE EVENING
Whoso wisheth to pray, let him wash his hands, and while he washeth, let him say:
Strengthen my hand, O my God, that it may take hold of Thy Book with such steadfastness that the hosts of the world shall have no 4 power over it. Guard it, then, from meddling with whatsoever doth not belong unto it. Thou art, verily, the Almighty, the Most Powerful. . . .
(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 3)

LONG OBLIGATORY PRAYER
TO BE RECITED ONCE IN TWENTY-FOUR HOURS
Whoso wisheth to recite this prayer, let him stand up and turn unto God, and, as he standeth in his place, let him gaze to the right and to the left, as if awaiting the mercy of his Lord, the Most Merciful, the Compassionate. Then let him say:
O Thou Who art the Lord of all names and the Maker of the heavens! I beseech Thee 7 by them Who are the Daysprings of Thine invisible Essence, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, to make of my prayer a fire that will burn away the veils which have shut me out from Thy beauty, and a light that will lead me unto the ocean of Thy Presence.
Let him then raise his hands in supplication toward God - blessed and exalted be He - and say:
O Thou the Desire of the world and the Beloved of the nations! Thou seest me turning toward Thee, and rid of all attachment to anyone save Thyself, and clinging to Thy cord, through whose movement the whole creation hath been stirred up. I am Thy servant, O my Lord, and the son of Thy servant. Behold me standing ready to do Thy will and Thy desire, and wishing naught else except Thy good pleasure. I implore Thee by the Ocean of Thy mercy and the Daystar of Thy grace to do with Thy servant as Thou willest and pleasest. By Thy might which is far above all mention and praise! Whatsoever is revealed by Thee is the desire of my heart and the beloved of my soul. O God, my God! Look not upon my 8 hopes and my doings, nay rather look upon Thy will that hath encompassed the heavens and the earth. By Thy Most Great Name, O Thou Lord of all nations! I have desired only what Thou didst desire, and love only what Thou dost love.
Let him then kneel, and bowing his forehead to the ground, let him say:
Exalted art Thou above the description of anyone save Thyself, and the comprehension of aught else except Thee. . .
(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 6)

Do these words not say "God is Great!"?

regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Arthra:

"A.Yusuf Ali English translation of Holy Qur'an:

Read Surih 5 verse 50:

"Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.."

Truth:

"How can the people of the Gospel judge if the Gospel was corrupted?"

Brother Truth,
Allah revealed the Gospel, the Psalms, the Scrolls and the Torah.

In English, at least "therein" refers to "Gospel", not Qur'an.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

I found the arabic one too at the same website.

Thanks in advance ..

This is the miracle of Quran.

It's not a litreal scripture like Torah but it's an oral revelation and Muslims acknowledge it as an oral one in the first place and many "sahabat" of prophet Mohammed memorized it and Allah already said:

[9] We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
(Quran 15:9)

Therefore, how Muslims read the Quran is the same how Allah wanted us to read it.

Dear Truth,

When the recision was made, the language did not have diacriticals, so they were absent. The diacriticals assign the vowel sounds to a language written with only consonants in its early form (like Hebrew). How many years later were diacriticals added to Umar's recision of the Qur'an? The purpose of Umar's recision was to make ONE Qur'an. We know other versions existed because Umar's order was to burn those old versions. So there WERE differences, or there would have been no need for Umar to act.

For three hundred years muslim scholars did not unanimously accept the word Khatam to mean what modern Islam believes it means, but rather that "Khatam" meant to warrant, guarantee and protect the purity of the Prophets - which is how I perceive it today.
Sometime - in the meantime - the diacriticals were added as the language progressed. I believe they were added after the last of the original memorizers of the Qur'an were gone. How can we guarantee the accuracy of the diacriticals? You say that God guarantees it, and I say the same is guaranteed for the Gospel - what is NEEDED is present. God guarantees it. But is it pristeen? and an absolutely true recording?

The originals of the Bab's writings which can be guaranteed not to have been adulterated by the followers of Subhi Azal still exist for scholars to consult. All the writings of Baha`u'llah, Abdu'l Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the House of Justice are still extant for scholars to consult, all these authoritative texts were guaranteed by the authors and we can regard them as faithful recordings. We even have the audio recordings of Abdu'l Baha's voice for a few prayers.

I am not challenging your beliefs here. I never wish to do so, since I believe Muhammed was always truthful, but I cannot say the same for the teachers after the Imams, their opinions are their own and some are better guidance than others as far as I am concerned. But after the Imams, who can I trust to be infallible? Who can I trust to be infallible about interpreting what the Imams have said? They are not infallible, and they are as subject to their own agendas, imagination, and idle fancy as I.

Regards,
Scott

 

[time_spender]

i,m back 2 say something quick!
i went to http://www.bahai.org and read all the site.
i read some books about baha and bab too...now the truth is clear for me!
i was angry atlast...why?(never mind about the question)
Even if a bahai does good he is off the God's edge
"Namaze bee velayat bi namaazi ist-----namaaz nist noeei hoghe bazist!"
i have also heard about the bahais in Iran....my dad explained what they did before irans revolution...ISTAGHFURULLAH
....talking with u = wasting time.

read a little about ur leader :bab
see how he has grown up...see what he has done....
U have left big religions like Islam and christianity and jewism and choosed a religion like bahaism
big religions have complete orders for every thing...especially shias that have hadises for their smallest things like shoes,hair style,how 2 sleep and etc from Mohammad(AS)and Imams
Lets just wait and see the ranking of the religions that will ALlah show.
------------------------
109.001
YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith!
PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers!

109.002
YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship,
PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve,

109.003
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:

109.004
YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,

109.005
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:

109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
------------------------------------

 

[YmirGF]

i,m back 2 say something quick! ...Ameen

Now that is a rather sanctimonious reply Time_Spender. You make an excellent Poster Child for Islam. Bravo.

You folks crack me up.

:biglaugh:





if only you were not serious....





:help:

 

[time_spender]

:clap Ymirgif! clap more!

The only help that i can do is to tell u to compare holy religions with bahaism...
Read Islam and Quran carefully and compare it with bahais book...compare Mohammad(AS),Jesus(PBUH),Moses(Pbuh) and... with bab or bahaudin.
The answer will be obvious. truth is clear
peace

 

[TashaN]

Yet the Qur'an says Abraham was a Muslim and submissive to God, without Muhammed to guide him.

Of course, all prophets before Mohammed "peace be upon them all" were Muslims.

Did you understand somthing rather than this from my post?

Do these words not say "God is Great!"?

It's not about saying "God is Great" or not. For example if i prayed 6 times a day instead of 5 so this is not islam. got my point?

Moreover, I read once that in the beginning of praying in Baha'i faith they say "Allah al-baha". Is it correct?

 

[TashaN]

So there WERE differences, or there would have been no need for Umar to act.

There were some differences because you can't take a recitation of one man and depend in it (not because he is not truthful but because this is the rules in Islam to not depend in one person whoever he is) but in that time most of the "Sahabat" of prophet Mohammed had a meeting and they acknowledged from Quran what most of them do memorize and the best among them in memorizing it and all of them agree to do so and Umar wasn't alone in this decision but he was the "khalifa" at that time.

For three hundred years muslim scholars did not unanimously accept the word Khatam to mean what modern Islam believes it means,

any proof?

I believe they were added after the last of the original memorizers of the Qur'an were gone.

Again, any proof?

How can we guarantee the accuracy of the diacriticals? You say that God guarantees it, and I say the same is guaranteed for the Gospel

First of all, please go to my post # 46 and answer my questions there if you don't mind.

Secondly, As you know we acknowledge the original Torah and the original Gospel as the word of God but not the translations because they hided many things in the original copy as Quran stated and after they left the original one and use the translations as the word of God they mistranslated it all over and over and they made changes in every version of it then started to take and add to the translated one.

I am not challenging your beliefs here. I never wish to do so, since I believe Muhammed was always truthful, but I cannot say the same for the teachers after the Imams

You are not challenging Islam my brother because no one can harm it or challenge it and succeed as no one could do so in the past, and in the present and no one can do so until the judgment day because it's the true religion of God.

Moreover, I don't acknowledge any Imam from the 12 or any other imams but my shi'i brother might believe so the same as you.

 

[TashaN]

Dear time_spender,

You went so far. It's not of your business to tell people what they should believe in and what they shouldn't. If your dad was a Baha'i so you were about by now to be in the brothers side in Baha'i faith and even the faith itself came from your hometown and your own sect Shi'ie but Bab then established a new religion by himself for so many reasons whether we know it or not.

If you wanna discuss somthing so don't say my mom said and my dad said.

You mentioned that you are 20 years old but it seems that you are much younger than that from the way you write because you are playing hiding and seeking in this thread.

When brother popey asked you about what the government of Iran did you couldn't even answer them and you escaped instead of telling the truth whatever it's.

Even though i may disagree with my brothers in Baha'i faith but i will not allow you to have fun of thier faith claiming that you are Muslim asking them to be Jewish or Christians at least instead of thier own faith.

 

[arthra]

Well dialogue can be difficult here because there has been great oppression of the Baha'is and propaganda has taken the place of truth...

When a minority is oppressed there is a version of history that is officially spread....

Qur'an confirms that when the new Messenger of God comes there is denial and persecution and this has occurred:

"When Moses came to them with Our clear signs they said: "this is nothing but sorcery faked up; never did we hear the like among our fathers of old." (Surih 28:36)

"And when came to them an Apostle from Allah, confirming what was with them, a party of the Book threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they did not know." (Surih 2:101)

Another aspect of this is the belief that the Torah and Gospel are corrupt...Here the Baha'i view is that it is not so much in the texts that have come down to us but rather in the interpretations.

Let me ask here...did Prophet Muhammad attack the scriptures of the People of the Book?

No He did not.

In Surih 5:47 it says: "It was We Who revealed the Law (to Moses) THEREIN WAS GUIDANCE AND LIGHT..." and in also in Surih 5:49 "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary confirming the Law that had come before Him: We sent Him the Gospel: THEREIN WAS GUIDANCE AND LIGHT and confirmation of the Law that had come before Him: A GUIDANCE AND AN ADMONITION top those who fear Allah. (50) Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein...."

When Jafar was before the Negus of Ethiopia, did he attack the Gospel?

I don't think so!

What happens when you attack Gospel or Torah is that you invite attacks on Holy Qur'an and make mischief among people of faith.

Timespender wrote:

"U have left big religions like Islam and christianity and jewism and choosed an incomplete religion like bahaism
big religions have complete orders for every thing..."

My reply:

At least Timespender you acknowledge that Baha'i Faith is a religion... So I guess the issue here has been resolved. You now acknowledge that Baha'i Faith is a religion.

The issue you pose though:

"U have left big religions like Islam and christianity and jewism"

Can be applied to the beginnings of the great religions Islam, Christianity and Judaism...

What were the great majority religions when Moses began His ministry? The paganism of Egypt. At the time of Jesus, it was the Judaism of His day with it's regulations and restrictions. In the life of Prophet Muhammad, what were the great religions? And why did a small band of followers leave the pagan religion of their families?

Every revelation from God begins as a persecuted minority... Can this be applied to the Baha'is today?

- Art

 

[arthra]

...
Moreover, I read once that in the beginning of praying in Baha'i faith they say "Allah al-baha". Is it correct?

My reply:

No...there is no regulation about saying "Allah al-baha" in the beginning of prayer.

- Art

 

[YmirGF]

Of course, all prophets before Mohammed "peace be upon them all" were Muslims.

I might just be me, but this is one statement that bothers me a lot about Islam. I DO understand the context it is used in, but it just seems like such a sweeping generalization to make. Christ, Buddha, Krsna, Zoroaster... were all Muslims? Again, I understand just how it is intended, but it just seems so wrong to claim their message was the same as the message from Muhammed. Clearly, they are not the same, otherwise everyone would have "reverted" to Islam long long ago.

 

[TashaN]

Well dialogue can be difficult here because there has been great oppression of the Baha'is and propaganda has taken the place of truth...

No body can know the truth 100% brother so just bring your evidence and God will help you if the truth is in your side.

I'm just discussing here with you but not against you but if you feel that i'm making any mistake or propaganda so i'll be glad to tell you "peace be upon you" and leave this thread.

Qur'an confirms that when the new Messenger of God comes there is denial and persecution and this has occurred:

"When Moses came to them with Our clear signs they said: "this is nothing but sorcery faked up; never did we hear the like among our fathers of old." (Surih 28:36)

Show me the clear sign in the Baha'i faith because i'm not seeing it anywhere.

"And when came to them an Apostle from Allah, confirming what was with them, a party of the Book threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they did not know." (Surih 2:101)

When we say confirming so that means the truth was in the scripture before the current one like if the baha'i faith was mentioned in the Quran but there is nothing there until now.

Let me ask here...did Prophet Muhammad attack the scriptures of the People of the Book?

No He did not.

In Surih 5:47 it says: "It was We Who revealed the Law (to Moses) THEREIN WAS GUIDANCE AND LIGHT..." and in also in Surih 5:49 "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary confirming the Law that had come before Him: We sent Him the Gospel: THEREIN WAS GUIDANCE AND LIGHT and confirmation of the Law that had come before Him: A GUIDANCE AND AN ADMONITION top those who fear Allah. (50) Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein...."

Brother art, I believe that the Torah and Injeel were from God and i don't considered as a muslim if i didn't but It's so clear that you escaped from answering my questions about prophets in the pervious scriptures but i'll tell what the Quran said.

"But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)." (Quran 5:13)

"Know they not Allah Knoweth what they [the Jews] conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them [the Jews] illiterates, who know not the Book [the Old Testament], but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book [Old Testament] with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby".(Quran, 2:77-78)

There was nothing wrong with the scriptures itself because it WAS guidance and light until some people wrote things with thier own hands claiming it's from God as the verse stated.

Nevertheless, Let the Torah and Injeel now aside because it's off-topic and read this verse and you can't claim after reading it that Baha'i faith came to complete Islam but you are free to claim that you believe in a religion called Baha'i but it doesn't have any relationship with islam in term of completing it.

Read here ..

".....This day those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: Yet fear them not But fear Me (Allah). This day have I (Allah) perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your (complete) religion...." (Quran, 5:3)


Peace ...

 

[TashaN]

I might just be me, but this is one statement that bothers me a lot about Islam. I DO understand the context it is used in, but it just seems like such a sweeping generalization to make. Christ, Buddha, Krsna, Zoroaster... were all Muslims? Again, I understand just how it is intended, but it just seems so wrong to claim their message was the same as the message from Muhammed. Clearly, they are not the same, otherwise everyone would have "reverted" to Islam long long ago.

Dear YmirGF,

I invite you to see how all prophets including Jesus Christ "peace be upon them all" prayed to God the same as Prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" taught us to pray in this link below.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=330348&posted=1#post330348

After that you can ask me more about anything you don't understand through PM or just start a thread about it and i'll try to discuss with you about it "God willing".


Peace ...