Is Bahai a real faith?

[Popeyesays]

"

(C)ertain variant readings existed and, indeed, persisted and increased as the Companions who had memorised the text died, and because the inchoate (basic) Arabic script, lacking vowel signs and even necessary diacriticals to distinguish between certain consonants, was inadequate. ... In the 4th Islamic century, it was decided to have recourse (to return) to "readings" (qira'at) handed down from seven authoritative "readers" (qurra'); in order, moreover, to ensure accuracy of transmission, two "transmitters" (rawi, pl. ruwah) were accorded to each. There resulted from this seven basic texts (al-qira'at as-sab', "the seven readings"), each having two transmitted versions (riwayatan) with only minor variations in phrasing, but all containing meticulous vowel-points and other necessary diacritical marks. ... The authoritative "readers" are:

Nafi` (from Medina; d. 169/785)
Ibn Kathir (from Mecca; d. 119/737)
Abu `Amr al-`Ala' (from Damascus; d. 153/770)
Ibn `Amir (from Basra; d. 118/736)
Hamzah (from Kufah; d. 156/772)
al-Qisa'i [sic] (from Kufah; d. 189/804)
Abu Bakr `Asim (from Kufah; d. 158/778)"​

(Cyril Glassé, The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1989, p. 324, bold added)


There are actually more "qurrah`" than listed here, and note this happened in the 4th century of Islam.

"There are other indications that the belief in the finality of Muhammad's prophethood was not generally accepted in the early days of Islam. In a gloss explaining the expression of khayr al-khawátim (the best of the seals) used in the Naqá'id, the commentator Abú `Ubayda who died in 209 A.H. says, "He [the poet] means that the Prophet . . . is the seal of the prophets, which means he is the best of the prophets" (Naqá'id 349). A similar interpretation is given by Abú Riyásh al-Qaysí in his commentary on al-Kumayt's Háshimiyyat. Commentating on a verse in which the prophet is referred to as khátam (or khátim) al-anbiyá', Abú Riyásh says that the meaning of khátim al-anbiyá' is someone who seals the prophets; khátam al-anbiyá', on the other hand, means "beauty of the prophets" or "the best of them" (Friedmann, Prophecy 57). Another explicit tradition that supports this idea is attributed to `Á'isha, who said, "Say [that the Prophet is] the seal of the prophets and do not say that there is no prophet after him" (Al-Suyúti, qtd. in Friedmann, Prophecy 63). The phrase khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) here cannot mean "the last prophet", but is understandable in the sense of the best prophet. Also, the foremost Kúfí grammarian al-Tha'lad held that "al-khátim is the one who sealed the prophets and al-khátam is the best of the prophets in character and physical constitution" (Al-`Ayní, qtd. in Friedmann, Prophecy 58).

These doxological[31] interpretations of seal seem to indicate that even in the third century of Islam, there still existed different interpretations of khátam al-anbiyá' (seal of the prophets). These interpretations also found their way into hadíth literature. For instance, there is a saying of the Imam `Alí that "Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets [khátam al-anbiyá'] and I am the Seal of the Successors [khátam al-wasiyyín]" (Majlisí, Bihár 4-5).[32] If seal solely meant termination, then how can one understand `Alí as sealing the successorship, when there were to be eleven Imams after him according to Shi`i belief and the Caliphate was to continue after him in the history of Sunni Islam? Also, one Bahá'í writer discusses the implications of a hadíth in which the Prophet is reported to have said, "I am the last prophet and the mosque I am constructing is the last mosque." Rawshani argues that if by the term "last mosque" is understood that no other mosque will be built in the dispensation of Islam, then clearly this is an absurd contradiction, unless it was used in a doxological manner. On this ground the term khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) refers to the fact that the Prophet confirmed the prophets before him and thus the peoples of Arabia, who had not accepted the prophethood of the prophets of the past, particularly those of the Abrahamic tradition, were summoned to recognise them (Rawshani, Khátamiyyat 30-31). " http://bahai-library.com/?file=fananapazir_fazel_finality_islam.html

I gave this link before, the entire essay is worth reading.

I'm going to break up responses to your excellent post, to allow myself time to think through the points.

Regards,
Scott
​

 

[Popeyesays]

Truth,

I am just getting around to what appears to have been a busy morning on this thread, so I'll just try to hit my feet running.

You said:
"It's not about saying "God is Great" or not. For example if i prayed 6 times a day instead of 5 so this is not islam. got my point?

Moreover, I read once that in the beginning of praying in Baha'i faith they say "Allah al-baha". Is it correct?"

No, not exactly. One should in addition to one's obligatory prayers one should recite 95 times, "Allah-u-abha" which is one form of the "Greatest Name" of God "Ya Baha`ul abha" is the other form of the Greatest Name.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

I might just be me, but this is one statement that bothers me a lot about Islam. I DO understand the context it is used in, but it just seems like such a sweeping generalization to make. Christ, Buddha, Krsna, Zoroaster... were all Muslims? Again, I understand just how it is intended, but it just seems so wrong to claim their message was the same as the message from Muhammed. Clearly, they are not the same, otherwise everyone would have "reverted" to Islam long long ago.

Ymgir,

To put it in context a Muslim is one who embraces al-Islam. Al-Islam means "the Surrender" as in surrender of one's own will to God's will. So Abraham, whatever He might have been submitted His own will to God's will, therefore He is Muslim - even though it was thousands of years before Muhammed revealed the Qur'an. So was Jesus, so was Moses, so was Noah, so was Lot, so was David, so was Zoroaster, so was Salih, so was Hud, etc.

From a Baha`i point of view, all that you mentioned were Divine Manifestations. To a Baha`i a Divine Manifestation is a Prophet Who speaks with His Own authority. All that you mentioned did speak with Their Own authority.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

i,m back 2 say something quick!
i went to http://www.bahai.org and read all the site.
i read some books about baha and bab too...now the truth is clear for me!
i was angry atlast...why?(never mind about the question)
Even if a bahai does good he is off the God's edge
"Namaze bee velayat bi namaazi ist-----namaaz nist noeei hoghe bazist!"
i have also heard about the bahais in Iran....my dad explained what they did before irans revolution...ISTAGHFURULLAH
....talking with u = wasting time.

read a little about ur leader :bab
see how he has grown up...see what he has done....
U have left big religions like Islam and christianity and jewism and choosed a religion like bahaism
big religions have complete orders for every thing...especially shias that have hadises for their smallest things like shoes,hair style,how 2 sleep and etc from Mohammad(AS)and Imams
Lets just wait and see the ranking of the religions that will ALlah show.
------------------------
109.001
YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith!
PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers!

109.002
YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship,
PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve,

109.003
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:

109.004
YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,

109.005
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:

109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
------------------------------------

From Shiraz, huh?
Was your father part of the mob of fanatics who, in 1980 or 1981 tore down the house of the Bab with their bare hands?

Was your father part of Khomeini's moral police who arrested, brutalized, murdered, tortured, burned to death in the streets, Baha`i's after the fall of the Shah?

Was your grandfather part of the mobs who did the same in the 1950's while the Shah was still in power?

Was your Great-Grandfather part of the mobs who martyred Baha`i believers in the 1890's while Masiri d'in Shah still ruled?

Was your Great-great grandfather part of the mobs who drove the Bab out of His home city in the 1840's or tortured and maimed His followers because they followed their hearts and spirits in service to the Bab?

Why won't you answer "YES" to my questions? If it is such a source of pride to you that you DO accept the mistreatment of people of faith in your nation, and the discrimination against them that leads to their banning from schools, pensions, government service, even the right to bury their dead in their own fashion?

You could at least take pride in your beliefs, but you take the coward's way out.

No Regards for you at all, anymore,
Scott

 

[YmirGF]

Ymgir,

To put it in context a Muslim is one who embraces al-Islam. Al-Islam means "the Surrender" as in surrender of one's own will to God's will. So Abraham, whatever He might have been submitted His own will to God's will, therefore He is Muslim...

Thank you for your reply Scott, however, what is to stop me from starting a religion tonight that used the same mechanism? Nothing at all. I could easily do honor to those who came before me. "Yes, Maxx-ism, agrees with all the previous incarnations of god. Each was a Maxx-ist in their own day, as they have told you exactly what I am going to tell you, with a modern twist."

It is because ANYONE could claim the same thing that the point is essentially meaningless. It's not like anyone from the past can dispute the point now is it?
So, Steve, how do you feel about reverting to your true Maxx-ist nature?

 

[Popeyesays]

Thank you for your reply Scott, however, what is to stop me from starting a religion tonight that used the same mechanism? Nothing at all. I could easily do honor to those who came before me. "Yes, Maxx-ism, agrees with all the previous incarnations of god. Each was a Maxx-ist in their own day, as they have told you exactly what I am going to tell you, with a modern twist."

It is because ANYONE could claim the same thing that the point is essentially meaningless. It's not like anyone from the past can dispute the point now is it?
So, Steve, how do you feel about reverting to your true Maxx-ist nature?

There is nothing to stop anyone from making a claim of religious revelation. The only thing that one can do is listen to the words and teachings and decide if it is of God or not.
Muhammed says the best proof of the truth of His message is the Qur'an. Baha`u'llah and the Bab say the same thing about Their revealed text.

I, personally have no problem looking at the words of the David Koresh variety and saying it was a crackpot. There are lots of examples of failed religions - Mani, Koresh, the various UFO cults, etc.

One can read what they had to say and compare it with the Gospel, the Qur'an, the Kitab`i Iqan and tell the difference.

Regards,
Scott

 

[arthra]

I believe the original post of this thread has been responded to. The Baha'i faith is indeed a real religion.

In response to:

"No body can know the truth 100% brother so just bring your evidence and God will help you if the truth is in your side."

Here is the current situation of Baha'is:

NEW YORK, 19 December 2005 (BWNS) -- A Baha'i who was wrongly jailed in Iran for 10 years died in his prison cell of unknown causes on Thursday, 15 December 2005, the Baha'i International Community has learned.

Mr. Dhabihu'llah Mahrami, 59, was held in a government prison in Yazd under harsh physical conditions at the time of his death.

His death comes amidst ominous signs that a new wave of persecutions of Baha'is has begun. This year so far, at least 59 Baha'is have been arrested, detained or imprisoned, a figure up sharply from the last several years.

Arrested in 1995 in Yazd on charges of apostasy, Mr. Mahrami was initially sentenced to death. His sentence was later commuted to life imprisonment after an international outcry and widespread media attention.

"The worldwide Baha'i community mourns deeply the passing of Mr. Mahrami, who was unjustly held for a decade on trumped-up charges that manifestly violated his right to freedom of religion and belief," said Bani Dugal, the principal representative of the Baha'i International Community to the United Nations.

"While the cause of his death is not known, Mr. Mahrami had no known health concerns," said Ms. Dugal.

"We also know that Mr. Mahrami was forced to perform arduous physical labor and that he had received death threats on a number of occasions.

"In this light, there should be no doubt that the Iranian authorities bear manifest responsibility for the death of this innocent man, whose only crime was his belief in the Baha'i Faith," said Ms. Dugal.

"In our mourning, we nevertheless hope that Mr. Mahrami's unexplained passing will not go unnoticed by the world at large and, indeed, that his case might become a cause for further action towards the emancipation of the Baha'i community of Iran as a whole," said Ms. Dugal.

Born in 1946, Mr. Mahrami served in the civil service but at the time of his arrest was making a living installing venetian blinds, having been summarily fired from his job like thousands of other Baha'is in the years following the 1979 Iranian revolution.

Although Iranian officials have asserted that Mr. Mahrami was guilty of spying for Israel, court records clearly indicate that he was tried and sentenced solely on charge of being an "apostate," a crime which is punishable by death under traditional Islamic law.

Although Mr. Mahrami was a lifelong Baha'i, the apostasy charge apparently came about because a civil service colleague, in an effort to prevent Mr. Mahrami from losing his job, submitted to a newspaper an article stating that he had converted to Islam.

When it later became clear to Iranian authorities that Mr. Mahrami remained a member of the Baha'i community, they arrested him and charged him with apostasy for allegedly converting from Islam to the Baha'i Faith. On 2 January 1996, he was sentenced to death by the Revolutionary Court, a conviction that was later upheld by the Iranian Supreme Court.

The death sentence against Mr. Mahrami stirred an international outcry. The European Parliament, for example, passed a resolution on human rights abuses in Iran, making reference to Mr. Mahrami's case. The governments of Australia, Brazil, Canada, France, Germany, the United Kingdom, and the United States also registered objections.

There was also significant media coverage of the case, in Le Monde and Liberation in France, as well as reports by the BBC, Reuters and Agence France Presse.

Although the authorities did not publicly bow to international pressure calling for Mr. Mahrami's release, in December 1999 they took the occasion of the anniversary of the birth of the Prophet Muhammad to declare an amnesty and commuted his sentence to life imprisonment.

Since 1978, more than 200 Iranian Baha'i have been killed, hundreds more have been imprisoned, and thousands have been deprived of jobs, pensions and education as part of a widespread and systemic religious persecution by the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

"DIANE ALA I, of Baha’i International Community, said Baha’is continued to be subjected to arbitrary arrest, short-term detention, harassment and discrimination in many different localities in Iran. The officials confiscated Baha’i homes, denied their rightfully earned pensions, barred them from employment and blocked their private businesses. All attempts to obtain redress were systematically denied. The Government persisted in banning the sacred institutions that were responsible, in the Baha’i faith, for most of the functions performed by the clergy in other religions. The community was alarmed by recent developments which indicated that Iranian officials might be carrying out a methodical plan to destroy Baha’i historical and holy places. At the beginning of the Islamic Revolution, the authorities had confiscated all Baha’i cemeteries, sacred sites and centres."

Source:

http://www.unpo.org/news_detail.php?arg=02&par=1030

"DIANE ALA’I, of Baha’i International Community, said the harassment and injustices targeting the Baha’is in Egypt were clear violations of the freedom of religion or belief.* Regrettably, the Government had not taken any steps to right these wrongs.* The Baha’is faced active persecution in Egypt.* Decree No. 263, restrictively interpreted by the courts, was still used today for police investigations, arrests, domicile searches and the destruction of Baha’i literature.* All members of the community were under police surveillance.* They had no access to legal marriage, child custody and allowances, and were often denied pensions and inheritance.* They could not even obtain a family record – a document required for many official purposes.* They were regularly denounced as apostates in the media or in widely publicized court decisions.* The Egyptian Baha’i community was a law-abiding, peaceful community.* The only request of its members was that the Government remove all official restrictions that targeted them, including the Presidential Decree No. 263."

Source:

http://www.un.org/news/Press/docs/2003/hrcn1025.doc.htm

to be continued...

 

[arthra]

Continued from previous post:

Baha'is also continue to face intense persecution, including being denied permission to worship, and access to higher education or to carry out other communal affairs publicly. At least four Baha'is are serving prison terms for their religious beliefs.

Source:

http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/02/straw-ltr020303.htm

"Iran's constitution provides only qualified commitments to the principle of non-discrimination on the basis of religion or ethnic identity. In practice, discrimination is widespread and institutionalized, and, in the case of Baha'is and evangelical Christians, amounts to outright persecution. In February, death sentences against Musa Talebi and Zabihollah Mahrami, two Baha'is convicted as spies by Revolutionary Courts, were approved by the Supreme Court.*Allegations of espionage for Israel were often used by the government as a pretext for persecuting Baha'is."

Source:

http://www.hrw.org/worldreport/Mideast-04.htm

The United Nations General Assembly has passed resolutions about the violations of Human Rights in Iran:

General Assembly condemns human rights violations in Iran

EDITH M. LEDERER, Associated Press Writer
Monday, December 20, 2004

(12-20) 18:58 PST UNITED NATIONS (AP) --

The U.N. General Assembly on Monday approved a U.S.-backed resolution criticizing Iran for human rights violations, citing new restrictions on freedom of expression and the persecution of political and religious dissenters.

The measure, which is not legally binding but reflects global opinion, was approved 71-54 with 55 abstentions.

The world body said there is a "worsening situation" regarding freedom of opinion and expression, and freedom of the media, "especially the increased persecution for the peaceful expression of political views, including arbitrary arrest and detention without charge or trial."

It cited "crackdowns by the judiciary and security forces against journalists, parliamentarians, students, clerics and academics; the unjustified closure of newspapers and blocking of Internet sites." It also criticized the disqualification of large numbers of candidates and harassment of opposition activists in the run-up to parliamentary elections in February.

On a positive note, the General Assembly welcomed the Iranian government's invitation to some human rights investigators, a recommendation by the head of the judiciary that judges not propose stoning as a punishment, and the judiciary chief's announcement in April of a ban on torture.

It urged Iran to abide by its human rights obligations and to fully implement the ban on torture, expedite judicial reform, eliminate religious discrimination, end cruel and degrading punishments such as amputation and flogging, eliminate stoning, and institute prison reforms.

The resolution, which was co-sponsored by 34 countries, deplored Iran's execution of children under the age of 18 in violation of international statutes.

It protested continued restrictions on free assembly and forcible dissolution of political parties, the absence of due process of law, and the use of national security laws to deny individual rights.

It cited "the systemic discrimination against women and girls in law and in practice, despite some minor legislative improvements," the continuing discrimination against Christians, Jews and Sunnis, and the increasing discrimination against the Bahais.

_____________________

UNITED NATIONS, 17 December 2005 (BWNS) -- For the 18th time since 1985, the United Nations General Assembly has passed a resolution expressing "serious concern" over the human rights situation in Iran, also making specific mention of the ongoing persecution of the Baha'i community there.

The resolution, which had been put forward by Canada and co-sponsored by 46 countries including Australia, the European Union, and the United States, passed by a vote of 75 to 50 on 16 December 2005.

Among other things, it called on Iran to "eliminate, in law or in practice, all forms of discrimination based on religious, ethnic or linguistic grounds, and other human rights violations against minorities, including Arabs, Kurds, Baluchi, Christians, Jews, Sunni Muslims and the Baha'i...."

The resolution quite specifically takes note of the upsurge in persecution against Iran's 300,000-member Baha'i community, noting the "escalation and increased frequency of discrimination and other human rights violations against the Baha'i, including cases of arbitrary arrest and detention, the denial of freedom of religion or of publicly carrying out communal affairs, the disregard of property rights, the destruction of sites of religious importance, the suspension of social, educational and community-related activities and the denial of access to higher education, employment, pensions, adequate housing and other benefits...."

 

[time_spender]

From Shiraz, huh?
Was your father part of the mob of fanatics who, in 1980 or 1981 tore down the house of the Bab with their bare hands?

Was your father part of Khomeini's moral police who arrested, brutalized, murdered, tortured, burned to death in the streets, Baha`i's after the fall of the Shah?

Was your grandfather part of the mobs who did the same in the 1950's while the Shah was still in power?

Was your Great-Grandfather part of the mobs who martyred Baha`i believers in the 1890's while Masiri d'in Shah still ruled?

Was your Great-great grandfather part of the mobs who drove the Bab out of His home city in the 1840's or tortured and maimed His followers because they followed their hearts and spirits in service to the Bab?

Why won't you answer "YES" to my questions? If it is such a source of pride to you that you DO accept the mistreatment of people of faith in your nation, and the discrimination against them that leads to their banning from schools, pensions, government service, even the right to bury their dead in their own fashion?

You could at least take pride in your beliefs, but you take the coward's way out.

No Regards for you at all, anymore,
Scott

:biglaugh: Shiraz??? why should we have lived there sometime??
The answer 2 all of ur questions is NO.I had some religious and cultural information from him.he explained about it..ok?
Let me be honest.I didnt see anything new in your religion. I(i,m not offending anyone) cant understand how baha made a new religion while Mohammad and Jesus and tec have such complete religions.
for me,bahaism looks like a 1 year old child compared to Islam ,Christianity and jewism that look like a mature!!

u have also attacked the main point of Islam,Mahdi(AS),how can i respect a religion that is built on a tenet that plays with Muslim saviour???
In 2006 i can stand up and shout that i,m Mahdi's bab.Then i will say words that others appreciate me and then i have a religion with 6 million population in 2020!!!

I printed all the site u refered 2! When i was reading the verse that u read for ur prayers i was like !
comparing that verse with a simple verse of quran will clear everything.
u can easily understand which one is complete.
I was just noding my head when i read such a verse!...shouldnt bab or baha tried to improve their arabic then say a verse???
I told before that arabic mistake that bab or baha(i dont know which one!!) had in the court was aweful.

How can i change my religion now?
----------------------------------------

Was your father part of the mob of fanatics who, in 1980 or 1981 tore down the house of the Bab with their bare hands?

Was your father part of Khomeini's moral police who arrested, brutalized, murdered, tortured, burned to death in the streets, Baha`i's after the fall of the Shah?

Was your grandfather part of the mobs who did the same in the 1950's while the Shah was still in power?....

wow!....sounds that bahais had a houlocast(i,m sure i spelt it wrong) too...
May Allah forgive them all...
I,m off
Peace
~mohammad X!

 

[Popeyesays]

:biglaugh: Shiraz??? why should we have lived there sometime??
The answer 2 all of ur questions is NO.I had some religious and cultural information from him.he explained about it..ok?
Let me be honest.I didnt see anything new in your religion. I(i,m not offending anyone) cant understand how baha made a new religion while Mohammad and Jesus and tec have such complete religions.
for me,bahaism looks like a 1 year old child compared to Islam ,Christianity and jewism that look like a mature!!

u have also attacked the main point of Islam,Mahdi(AS),how can i respect a religion that is built on a tenet that plays with Muslim saviour???
In 2006 i can stand up and shout that i,m Mahdi's bab.Then i will say words that others appreciate me and then i have a religion with 6 million population in 2020!!!

I printed all the site u refered 2! When i was reading the verse that u read for ur prayers i was like !
comparing that verse with a simple verse of quran will clear everything.
u can easily understand which one is complete.
I was just noding my head when i read such a verse!...shouldnt bab or baha tried to improve their arabic then say a verse???
I told before that arabic mistake that bab or baha(i dont know which one!!) had in the court was aweful.

How can i change my religion now?
----------------------------------------

wow!....sounds that bahais had a houlocast(i,m sure i spelt it wrong) too...
May Allah forgive them all...
I,m off
Peace
~mohammad X!

Its the official position of your government that the Jews never suffered a holocaust at all. That it was a fiction. So, are you being ironic?

"The Truth" said you came from the city where my faith began which is Shiraz, birthplace of the Bab.

No one ever asked you to change your religion.

What prayers did you read? From what source? If you went to bahai.org did you go to the Arabic language site?

I think this particular prayer is appropriate to dealing with you:
"Lauded be Thy name, O Thou Who beholdest all things and art hidden from all things! From every land Thou hearest the lamentations of them that love Thee, and from every direction Thou hearkenest unto the cries of such as have recognized Thy sovereignty. Were their oppressors to be asked: “Wherefore have ye oppressed them and held them in bondage in Baghdád and elsewhere? What injustice have they committed? Whom have they betrayed? Whose blood have they spilled, and whose property have they plundered?” they would know not what to answer.
Thou knowest full well, O my God, that their only crime is to have loved Thee. For this reason have their oppressors laid hold on them, and scattered them abroad. Aware as I am, O my God, that Thou wilt send down upon Thy servants only what is good for them, I nevertheless beseech Thee, by Thy name which overshadoweth all things, to raise up, for their assistance and as a sign of Thy grace and as an evidence of Thy power, those who will keep them safe from all their adversaries.
Potent art Thou to do Thy pleasure. Thou art, verily, the Supreme Ruler, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. "

Scott

 

[time_spender]

first of all ,I dont live in Shiraz Ok?? I,m in another city in Iran.
and here is the verse they read in their prayers:

اشهد يا الهی بانّک خلقتنی لعرفانک و عبادک اشهد فی هذا الحين بعجزی و قوّتک و ضعفی و اقتدارک و فقری و غنائک لا اله الاّ انت المهيمن القيّوم.

Arabs will understand what i,m saying
Peace
~mohammad

 

[time_spender]

I came back to add some amazing Bahais rules that I have gathered from some sites.

These rules will be interesting for holy religion followers!!



1-any man can marry one woman because man and woman are the same. Except they can rule justice between more than one and that’s impossible! (Let me add that Bahaullah was polygamist with three wives!!!)



2-everything is pure even urine or dung or blood and etc (that makes the believer to have an easy life! Having a faith and becoming religious. How easy!!)



3-the maturity of boys and girls are the same! (Becoming 15 years old)



4-there are 4 places that those who don’t believe in baha can’t live there:

A-fars (Shiraz) B- Khorasan (the biggest state of Iran, Mashhad is located there!)

C-Azarbayejan D-Mazandaran

Baab 4-unit 6 (Bayan)



5-mariage is necessary to have Childs. If a woman couldn’t have a child it’s allowed to use one of the Bahais brothers (only Bahais) Baab15-unit8 (Bayan)

(I cant understand! So a woman can have many husbands???!)

(its obvious that they are trying to grow their society with illegal ways!)



6-Marrying your stepmother is forbidden but u can marry your sister or your daughter or others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :areyoucra

(Truth, will u continue talking with patience??)



7- Everythings goodies is for “nokhte” (sir bab!!) and the middle is for the “hay” (bab’s 18 first followers!) and the worst is for the people!!!! (Bab4-unit8)
:woohoo: for this politics!!




Does any one want to know more about what Bahais believe in??

Do some ppl still believe that Bahaism is a faith?

I’m sure that Lord will ask us about why we didn’t refuse false prophets. Sitting down and accepting any structure that comes out seems stupid.

These are rules that I have found in Bahais source!

I also searched some nice point about Christianity and Bahaism.

It’s interesting to know that Christianity denies Bahaism 2:




Speaking about the manifestation for each age "He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: "Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God I am He, Him himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am and He is that he is." ( p.66-67 GLEANINGS FROM THE WRITINGS OF BAHA'U'LLA'H)

Here we find Bahá'í's founder taking God's name and applying it to himself, which can never be approved by God.

In almost all religions one is unable to know God, but only obey him by his requirements and rules. This portrays a God who is far removed from us personally and has only left rules to be followed. Ones relationship is to rules instead of to the one who gave them. In this manner Bahá'í follows its predecessor Islam. Rules and commandments don’t give a relationship. As Christians we follow Christ a person not rules per se. The God of the bible is uniquely interested in each persons life by wanting to have personal communication and guidance if we will allow him. The choice is up to each individual whether they be Bahá'í, Muslim or Jewish, God desires this more than we do for ourselves.


Here finishes my post.

Let me add something. I’m so sorry to not see Christians in Rf are not participating in this thread.

Now what’s the threads answer? Is Bahai a real faith??
Peace and Salam
~mohammad-the truth seeker

 

[Green Gaia]

Does any one want to know more about what Bahais believe in??

If I do, I'll ask a Bahai member.

These are rules that I have found in Bahais source!

Let's see this source.

Is Bahai a real faith??

Yes, it is.

 

[Popeyesays]

I came back to add some amazing Bahais rules that I have gathered from some sites. . .

. . . (Let me add that Bahaullah was polygamist with three wives!!!)

Well, Baha`u'llah married all of His wives as a muslim, under muslim law - therefore He COULD have had a fourth wife, but He declined. Today if a person married to more than one wife becomes a Baha`i, he does not have to divorce the extra wives, but he cannot marry again unless he is single.

The Law of the Kitab`i Aqdas supersedes the Law of the Bayan. The Aqdas allowed TWO wives "if the man can treat both wives with equal justice." Abdu'l Baha later ruled as He was allowed to by Baha`u'llah that NO man can treat two wives with equal justice so only one spouse is permitted. Abdu'l Baha only had one wife all along.

2-everything is pure even urine or dung or blood and etc (that makes the believer to have an easy life! Having a faith and becoming religious. How easy!!)

Actually it does not say every substance is "pure", it says no substance is unclean. there's a difference there. It means that one who is a Baha`i can still clean up blood, urine, etc. without becoming unclean. I have often wondered how a Muslim nurse or doctor can avoid "unclean substances". The Aqdas says this allowance is a blessing.

3-the maturity of boys and girls are the same! (Becoming 15 years old)

Under that law the whole question of marrying a girl at eleven would be moot, and many detractors of Islam would have a great deal less ammo to shoot at Muslims. Fifteen is the age of spiritual responsibility, it is also the age when one may marry under BAHA`I law, but in most countries around the world eighteen is the legal age of consent, and according to the Aqdas Baha`is must obey the law of the land in which they live.

4-there are 4 places that those who don’t believe in baha can’t live there:

This is a law of the Bayan and the laws of the Bayan have been superseded by the Kitab`i Aqdas - there is no such law in the Aqdas

5-mariage is necessary to have Childs. If a woman couldn’t have a child it’s allowed to use one of the Bahais brothers (only Bahais) Baab15-unit8 (Bayan)

THis is a law of the Bayan, it has been superseded by the Aqdas. Many of the Bayan's laws were written for shock value to demonstrate that the faith of the Bab was not a branch of Islam, but an independent religion. The Bab knew there would only be 19 years during which the Bayan would be binding, so the more outrageous of those laws would be set right soon having fulfilled their purpose of asserting the independence of the Babi revelation.

(I cant understand! So a woman can have many husbands???!)

(its obvious that they are trying to grow their society with illegal ways!)

The law of the Aqdas as interpreted by Abdu'l Baha is one spouse only.

6-Marrying your stepmother is forbidden but u can marry your sister or your daughter or others!

(Truth, will u continue talking with patience??)

One may not marry even a first cousin under the laws of the Aqdas. In fact the Aqdas allows a couple to divorce and then re-marry without an intervening marriage for the woman as Islam requires.

7- Everythings goodies is for “nokhte” (sir bab!!) and the middle is for the “hay” (bab’s 18 first followers!) and the worst is for the people!!!! (Bab4-unit8)

for this politics!!

Muhammed reserved 20% of the spoils of war for Himself, did He not? At any rate this is again a law of the Bayan, not the Aqdas and Baha`i's do not follow it.

Does any one want to know more about what Bahais believe in??

Do some ppl still believe that Bahaism is a faith?

I'm sure you are the only one here who would contend that it is not a faith. If anyone does have questions about the Baha`i Faith and what it believes they will ask a Baha`i, not a bigot, who participates in the genocide of Baha`i's in Iran.

.

I’m sure that Lord will ask us about why we didn’t refuse false prophets. Sitting down and accepting any structure that comes out seems stupid.

These are rules that I have found in Bahais source!

I also searched some nice point about Christianity and Bahaism

It’s interesting to know that Christianity denies Bahaism 2

Christianity denies Islam as well, you know.




:.

. . .

GLEANINGS FROM THE WRITINGS OF BAHA'U'LLA'H)

It helps to quote in context:
"And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: "Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, 67 and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is." And in like manner, the words: "Arise, O Muhammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee." He similarly saith: "There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants." The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: "I am but a man like you." "Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?" These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God's all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations. Then, and only then, will the Trust of God, latent in the reality of man, emerge, as resplendent as the rising Orb of Divine Revelation, from behind the veil of concealment, and implant the ensign of its revealed glory upon the summits of men's hearts.
From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the 68 Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 66)


:.

Here finishes my post.

Let me add something. I’m so sorry to not see Christians in Rf are not participating in this thread.

Now what’s the threads answer? Is Bahai a real faith??
Peace and Salam
~mohammad-the truth seeker

The Essence of God is beyond our comprehension since we are thecreated and He is the Creator. A painting cannot know what painted it, neither can we fully comprehend God. That is why Muhammed came to mankind with a revelation. That is why Baha`u'llah came with a revelation.


As to why Christians aren't participating, probably it is because they are shocked by your hatefulness. The Truth is entirely different from you. He is courteous, respectful, and tolerant - and you are none of those things. You and the Iranian government have the blood of Baha`is on your hands, just like the Nazis had the blood of Jews, and Slavs on their hands. You choose not to make any distinction between your beliefs and the genocidal actions of your government, therefore you are an Iranian Gestapo officer in the eyes of the rest of the world.

Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

If anyone might be interested I can send them a video presentation on the youngest of the recent martyr Baha`i's in Iran. Its about 40 megabytes, I have a high speed connection so I do not mind uploading it to someone.

Regards,
Scott

 

[arthra]

One can see above I think how far from reality some of "Timespender's" remarks really are and this is because of the propaganda being dished out to justify the repression of Baha'is in Iran. So in a way I am very sorry for people like Timespender who have been so cruelly duped as they are victims themselves in being told such fabrications.

I think many of the German people were also duped by the Nazis and told outrageous lies about the Jews to scape goat them. Incidentally the Baha'i Faith was also illegal in the Germany of the Third Reich and some Baha'is were imprisoned and their literature seized and they were unable to hold meetings. Today the German Baha'i community is free in a democratic society and is no longer persecuted.

- Art

 

[TashaN]

Sorry being late because i was busy until you reached guys to name calling instead of discussing.



Actually, i didn't want to come back to this thread but i just wanted to answer some of the questions given by brother popey.

There resulted from this seven basic texts (al-qira'at as-sab', "the seven readings")

I wish i can use these seven readings and even some scholars said it's 10 readings. I'm surprised a little bit because i thought you know that these readings is only the way they read the SAME EXACT word but that will not change the meaning of the word but the way they spell it according to the arabic tribe they belong too because not all arabs have the same slang.

In a gloss explaining the expression of khayr al-khawátim (the best of the seals) used in the Naqá'id, the commentator Abú `Ubayda who died in 209 A.H. says, "He [the poet] means that the Prophet . . . is the seal of the prophets, which means he is the best of the prophets" (Naqá'id 349).

Never heard of this !!!

For instance, there is a saying of the Imam `Alí that "Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets [khátam al-anbiyá'] and I am the Seal of the Successors [khátam al-wasiyyín]" (Majlisí, Bihár 4-5).

You can go to any Hadith searcher and you will never find this hadith.


Try out this one .. http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=&search=&book=&translator=&start=0

Moreover, i found out that al-albani said this is a wrong hadith and al-dahabi said the same thing about it.

No, not exactly. One should in addition to one's obligatory prayers one should recite 95 times, "Allah-u-abha" which is one form of the "Greatest Name" of God "Ya Baha`ul abha" is the other form of the Greatest Name.

I know about 99 names and attributes of God unless you are saying they are 100 with the name "abha".

Muhammed reserved 20% of the spoils of war for Himself, did He not? At any rate this is again a law of the Bayan, not the Aqdas and Baha`i's do not follow it.

Prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" never ever reserve anything for himself.

He was very poor and he died as a poor man.


Peace ...

 

[TashaN]

Finally, i want you brother popey to study these given hadiths and tell me according to what you understand directly from them not through what you "believe in" the same with me when i ignored all the garbage i found about Baha'i faith and time_spender gave you already some of it but i was trying to find it out by myself and my own understanding not through websites.

Narrated Abu Said: Allah's Apostle said, "Noah and his nation will come (on the Day of Resurrection and Allah will ask (Noah), "Did you convey (the Message)?' He will reply, 'Yes, O my Lord!' Then Allah will ask Noah's nation, 'Did Noah convey My Message to you?' They will reply, 'No, no prophet came to us.' Then Allah will ask Noah, 'Who will stand a witness for you?' He will reply, 'Muhammad and his followers (will stand witness for me).' So, I and my followers will stand as witnesses for him (that he conveyed Allah's Message)." That is, (the interpretation) of the Statement of Allah: "Thus we have made you a just and the best nation that you might be witnesses Over mankind .." (2.143) (Book #55, Hadith #555)

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship." (Book #56, Hadith #661)

Narrated Jubair bin Mutim: Allah's Apostle said, "I have five names: I am Muhammad and Ahmad; I am Al-Mahi through whom Allah will eliminate infidelity; I am Al-Hashir who will be the first to be resurrected, the people being resurrected there after; and I am also Al-'Aqib (i.e. There will be no prophet after me)." (Book #56, Hadith #732)

Narrated Sad: Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, "Do you want to leave me with the children and women?" The Prophet said, "Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me." (Book #59, Hadith #700)

Narrated Isma'il: I asked Abi Aufa, "Did you see Ibrahim, the son of the Prophet ?" He said, "Yes, but he died in his early childhood. Had there been a Prophet after Muhammad then his son would have lived, but there is no prophet after him." (Book #73, Hadith #214)

Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "Nothing is left of the prophetism except Al-Mubashshirat." They asked, "What are Al-Mubashshirat?" He replied, "The true good dreams (that conveys glad tidings)." (Book #87, Hadith #119)

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: While I was sleeping, the treasures of the earth were presented to me and I was made to wear in my hands two gold bangles. I felt a sort of burden upon me and I was disturbed and it was suggested to me that I should blow over them, so I blew and both of them disappeared. I interpreted them as two great liars who would appear at any time, one is the inhabitant of Sana' and the other is that of Yamama. (Book #029, Hadith #5651)

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour would not come until there would arise about thirty impostors, liars, and each one of them would claim that he is a messenger of Allah. (Book #041, Hadith #6988)

Also,

Abu Huraira observed that the Prophet (PBUH) said: "In the latter Days there will come forth men who will deceive the world by religion, clothed before men in sheepskin because of gentleness (please read same thing Jesus said in the section on Christianity's Answer), their tonggues sweeter than sugar, and their hearts the hearts of wolves." (Tirmidhi)


Finally, ibn taymiah and many other scholars confirm that a "Messenger" is the whom God sent to the unbelievers but on the other hand, a "prophet" is the one whom God send to the believers just to judge among them with the law they have recieved before this prophet by a "Messenger".

[44] It was We who revealed the Law (to Musa): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the Prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's Will, by the Rabbis and the Doctors of Law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's Book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My Signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers. (Quran 5:44).

Therefore, as you can see in the verse all the prophets to the sons of isarel after Moses(The prophet and Messenger of God) were judging only through the law given to Moses by God and they can't change it.

[40] Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things. (Quran 33:40)

Why didn't God said and the seal of Messengers?

That's because being the seal of messengers so that means there would be some other prophets after him but when Allah said seal of prophets so that means by logic there is no messenger of God after him because prophet Mohammed already stated: "no prophet after me". So, we know from this that there will be no messenger of God because there is no prophet after him but he is the seal of prophets and messengers.

This is all what i have for you and i can't convience you that i'm definitely right unless you are looking forward for the truth and only the truth but not by my power or my evidences because we all are human beings and Allah knows best.


Peace be upon you all ...

 

[arthra]

Regarding Hadiths... Baha'is do not accept all Hadiths as valid... We would accept Hadiths that are mentioend in our Writings. There are also many collections of Hadiths...some are from the Imams and would not appear in a Bukhari or Muslim Hadith site.

Among the Baha'is themselves we do not accept hear-say statements as authorititive. So there will not be a voluminous collection of sayings that you have in Islam that form the basis of legal schools.

As to the Baha'i position on the "Seal of the Prophets" issue, we believe it is a Seal of the Age of Prophecy which went before as a prelude to the Age of Fulfillment. You can see a schematic diagram of the Baha'i view of the Ages and Cycles here:

http://bahai-library.com/encyclopedia/agescycl.html

Baha'is are being persecuted and outlawed in various countries today so it is particularly painful to us when someone from these countries attacks our Faith and casts aspersions on it.

- Art

 

[Popeyesays]

Sorry being late because i was busy until you reached guys to name calling instead of discussing.



Actually, i didn't want to come back to this thread but i just wanted to answer some of the questions given by brother popey.

I appreciate that, I am sorry that the discussion has become rancorous between Spender and myself, unfortunately, as you know, the Iranian government IS practicing genocide against the Baha`i Faith in its homeland. I cannot let his slurs pass without bringing attention to the fact that he seems to be a participant in that destruction of a culture.

I wish i can use these seven readings and even some scholars said it's 10 readings. I'm surprised a little bit because i thought you know that these readings is only the way they read the SAME EXACT word but that will not change the meaning of the word but the way they spell it according to the arabic tribe they belong too because not all arabs have the same slang.

Never heard of this !!!



You can go to any Hadith searcher and you will never find this hadith.

This is a saying of the Imam Ali, not Muhammed.


Try out this one .. http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=&search=&book=&translator=&start=0

Moreover, i found out that al-albani said this is a wrong hadith and al-dahabi said the same thing about it.

What was the date of the findings of al-albani and al-dahabi

I find this in a search of Imam al-dahabi:
"uestion: I am writing to ask about the author of Kitâb al-`Arsh He is Ibn Abî Shaybah, I think. Is he a reliable narrator, and is his book trustworthy? Al-Kawthari said that he was a liar, and I have heard that al-Khatîb al-Baghdâdî said the same.

Answered by the Fatwa Department Research Committee - chaired by Sheikh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî
The author of Kitâb al-`Arsh is Muhammad b. `Uthmân b. Abî Shaybah. The authorship of Muhammad b. `Uthmân b. Abî Shaybah for Kitâb al-`Arsh is confirmed.

There is disagreement about his strength as a narrator.

Look what Imam al-Dahabî says in Siyar A`lâm al-Nubal⒠(14/21): “The criticizers had disagreed about Muhammad b. `Uthmân. Some of them classified him as trustworthy while others classified him as a liar.”

Kitab al-`Arsh is essentially a collection of narrations on the topic of the throne of Allah. These narrations he mentions in his book Kitâb al-`Arsh are not narrated exclusively by him. They are mentioned elsewhere in the hadîth literature.

There are only eight or nine narrations that are narrated exclusively by him, but the meanings of these are found in other narrations.

The narrations of hadîth mentioned in his book need to be scrutinized on their own merits by looking at their chains of transmission as they are found in their various hadîth sources. They are neither authenticated nor weakened by their presence in the book Kitâb al-`Arsh.

Since he has come with a few unique narrations within it, we would decide not to accept those particular narrations if we prefer to adopt the opinion that he is a weak narrator.

The throne of Allah is mentioned in the Qur’ân many times. Allah is firmly established on the throne in a way that is suitable to Him.

Please do not confuse the author of Kitâb al-`Arsh with `Abd Allah b. Muhammad b. Abî Shaybah, the author of the Musannaf. They are two different people.

…And Allah knows best. "






















































It seems there is disagreement on the authenticity of the narration.

I know about 99 names and attributes of God unless you are saying they are 100 with the name "abha".

The Bab revealed the 100th name of God "Baha" of which "abha" is a derivitive. The other form of the Greatest Name is "Ya Baha`u'l abha"

Prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" never ever reserve anything for himself.

He was very poor and he died as a poor man.


Peace ...

I never said the Apostle mismanaged money - He did God's will with the proceeds that went to His administration, however according to the Qur'an one fifth is reserved for the Faith and the Apostle of all spoils:
"But if they turn their backs, then know that God is your Lord; a good Lord is He, and a good help; and know that whenever ye seize anything as a spoil, to God belongs a fifth thereof, and to His Apostle, and to kindred and orphans, and the poor and the wayfarer; if ye believe in God and what we have revealed unto our servants on the day of the discrimination,- the day when the two parties met; and God is mighty over all."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 8 - The Spoils)

The Apostle was the manager of this fund for orphans, wayfarers, widows, whatever. The fact that he administered it selflessly is evident in the state of poverty in which He lived.

Regards,
Scott