Is Bahai a real faith?

[arthra]

While Baha'is accept Prophet Muhammad and the Qur'an we do not accept many of the traditions or schools of thought that have developed in Islam.

I have read though a different view of the Seal of the Prophets verse in Qur'an that it applies to Nabi rather than Rasuli... So one must be aware of these distinctions.

Generally for us it means though that the Era of Prophecy has been fulfilled by an Era of Fulfillment of the Prophetic Age.

Baha'is also believe in a spiritual interpretation of scriptures... We don't accept a literal interpretation usually.

You will also note that Baha'is do not attack Muslims or their beliefs say on the internet...We don't support anti Muslim sites or write pamphlets against Islam. All the Baha'is stress though is that we are an independent religion with our own ordinances and Writings and ask that Muslims repsect that.

- Art

 

[TashaN]

I have read though a different view of the Seal of the Prophets verse in Qur'an that it applies to Nabi rather than Rasuli... So one must be aware of these distinctions.

Many brothers from Baha'i faith used to argue using this statment but the fact is that Rasul IS indeed a Nabi but NOT necessary for Nabi to be Rasul.

So, If Prophet Mohammed said that there is no Nabi after him so it's so clear that it goes for Rasuls as well because no one can jump being Rasul without being Nabi as i already explined and you can check whether i'm right or wrong.

You will also note that Baha'is do not attack Muslims or their beliefs say on the internet...We don't support anti Muslim sites or write pamphlets against Islam. All the Baha'is stress though is that we are an independent religion with our own ordinances and Writings and ask that Muslims repsect that.

- Art

Brother Art, you have to know that i don't support attacking other faiths or disrespect them and i didn't want to participate on this topic until i saw some points about Islam that i must explain.


Peace ...

 

[Popeyesays]

Many brothers from Baha'i faith used to argue using this statment but the fact is that Rasul IS indeed a Nabi but NOT necessary for Nabi to be Rasul.

So, If Prophet Mohammed said that there is no Nabi after him so it's so clear that it goes for Rasuls as well because no one can jump being Rasul without being Nabi as i already explined and you can check whether i'm right or wrong.



Brother Art, you have to know that i don't support attacking other faiths or disrespect them and i didn't want to participate on this topic until i saw some points about Islam that i must explain.


Peace ...

I have enjoyed discussing many of these topics with Truth. He and I differ on the "Seal of the Prophets" and its meanings, but we can respect one another as searchers for truth, without agreeing as to what truth might be on any particular topic.

One thing is for sure, the real understanding will come with time, and when it does we will all realize how close together we really are, and how wide the arms of God are to embrace us all.

I started speaking on this topic because I saw many old Iranian canards about the faith being repeated for the umpteenth time.

Time-Spender is probably off on his religious trip, perhaps to Karbila since that is a pilgrimage site for Shi'ih and until recently quite difficult to visit since it was a Shi'ite holy place in a Sunni controlled country (Iraq). The occupation of Iraq has re-opened several Shi'ih Holy Sites in Iraq. By the way, it also allowed enough religious freedom that the Baha`i administrative order is now operative in Iraq for the first time since the 1950's there is a Baha`i National Spiritual Assembly and many operating Local Spiritual Assemblies in Iraq.

The Iranian Revolution destroyed the administrative order in Iran, unfortunately, maybe the day will come it can be re-established there as well.

Regards,
Scott

Regards,
Scott

 

[arthra]

Truth wrote:

Many brothers from Baha'i faith used to argue using this statment but the fact is that Rasul IS indeed a Nabi but NOT necessary for Nabi to be Rasul.

So, If Prophet Mohammed said that there is no Nabi after him so it's so clear that it goes for Rasuls as well because no one can jump being Rasul without being Nabi as i already explined and you can check whether i'm right or wrong.

My reply:

I think there is a different view by us Baha'is on this issue. We accept that a Rasul is a Manifestation of God from conception and has innate knowledge and reflects perfectly the attributes of God without any effort. So this is why in Qur'an Jesus/Isa speaks from the cradle... as a small child because it is innate not acquired wisdom...

The Nabi on the other hand must turn to the Rasul and acquire wisdom and so can be inspired during their lifetime but again must work to acquire it.

- Art

 

[TashaN]

Truth wrote:

Many brothers from Baha'i faith used to argue using this statment but the fact is that Rasul IS indeed a Nabi but NOT necessary for Nabi to be Rasul.

So, If Prophet Mohammed said that there is no Nabi after him so it's so clear that it goes for Rasuls as well because no one can jump being Rasul without being Nabi as i already explined and you can check whether i'm right or wrong.

My reply:

I think there is a different view by us Baha'is on this issue. We accept that a Rasul is a Manifestation of God from conception and has innate knowledge and reflects perfectly the attributes of God without any effort. So this is why in Qur'an Jesus/Isa speaks from the cradle... as a small child because it is innate not acquired wisdom...

The Nabi on the other hand must turn to the Rasul and acquire wisdom and so can be inspired during their lifetime but again must work to acquire it.

- Art

You know what?

We are not going anywhere with this discusion about Nabi and Rasul because we will reach no common point at all.

Let's go for the bigger picture ..

Why we need an Apostle after Mohammed?

Is islam incomplete?

What did Baha'allah added more than what Mohammed "peace be upon him" did teach us?

Is it just because my brothers in Baha'i faith think it's like a cycle of prophets with no specific reason or there was a reason why we need more Apostles of God?

Can we compare the Baha'i scriptures with Torah, Injeel and Quran in it's events and completing each other?

With this kind of questions we can get to the truth together "in sha Allah"


Your brother,

The Truth

 

[Popeyesays]

You know what?

We are not going anywhere with this discusion about Nabi and Rasul because we will reach no common point at all.

Let's go for the bigger picture ..

Why we need an Apostle after Mohammed?

Is islam incomplete?

5,000 years ago the Torah was the complete Revelation from God for mankind. But the world and mankind have changed since then. 2,000 years ago the Injeel was the complete Revelation from God, which upheld all the spiritual truths of the Torah, fufilled the prophecies of the Torah and advanced the civilization of man with new social laws for the changing needs of society. Six-hundred and -twenty years later, the Qur'an was the complete Revelation from God, which upheld the spiritual truths of the Torah and the Injeel, fulfilled their prophecies and advanced the civilization of man with new social laws that united feuding tribes into a nation and an evangelical movement which brought new socials laws for the changing needs of the changing world.
1260 years later the Bab and Baha`u'llah brought forth a new and complete Revelation of God for mankind, upholding the spiritual truths of the Torah, the Injeel and the Qur'an, fulfilled their prophecies and advances the civilization of man with new social laws for the changing needs of of the changing worlds.

A wise man said "Nothing is contant except change." Jesus Himself said, "I will not leave you alone." The Kingdom will not come unless we build it, and God will not be finished with His Revelation as long as the Kingdom needs renewal.

What did Baha'allah added more than what Mohammed "peace be upon him" did teach us?

Is it just because my brothers in Baha'i faith think it's like a cycle of prophets with no specific reason or there was a reason why we need more Apostles of God?

Can we compare the Baha'i scriptures with Torah, Injeel and Quran in it's events and completing each other?

With this kind of questions we can get to the truth together "in sha Allah"


Your brother,

The Truth

From Abdu'l Baha:
"Therefore, the Universal Educator must be at the same time a physical, human and spiritual educator; and He must possess a supernatural power, so that He may hold the position of a divine teacher. If He does not show forth such a holy power, He will not be able to educate, for if He be imperfect, how can He give a perfect education? If He be ignorant, how can He make others wise? If He be unjust, how can He make others just? If He be earthly, how can He make others heavenly?
Now we must consider justly: did these Divine Manifestations Who have appeared possess all these qualifications or not? [1] If They had not these qualifications and these perfections, They were not real Educators.
[1 Divine Manifestations are the founders of religions. Cf. "Two Classes of Prophets," p. 164.]
Therefore, it must be our task to prove to the thoughtful by reasonable arguments the prophethood of Moses, of Christ and of the other Divine Manifestations. And the proofs and evidences which we give are not based on traditional but on rational arguments.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 11)"

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

5,000 years ago the Torah was the complete Revelation from God for mankind. But the world and mankind have changed since then. 2,000 years ago the Injeel was the complete Revelation from God, which upheld all the spiritual truths of the Torah, fufilled the prophecies of the Torah and advanced the civilization of man with new social laws for the changing needs of society. Six-hundred and -twenty years later, the Qur'an was the complete Revelation from God, which upheld the spiritual truths of the Torah and the Injeel, fulfilled their prophecies and advanced the civilization of man with new social laws that united feuding tribes into a nation and an evangelical movement which brought new socials laws for the changing needs of the changing world.

You know well that the Torah wasn't for all mankind but for the sons of Israel as well as the Injeel when Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of israel and both, Torah and Injeel were corrupted and changed from it's original form. Nevertheless, Quran was the last revelation for all mankind and Mohamed the last Apostle of God and Islam is not corrupted the same as the pervious revelations so why then?

Moses and Jesus told us about Mohammed. Did any Apostle of God told us about the Bab and Baha`u'llah?

Did he fulfill any prophicy?

Therefore, it must be our task to prove to the thoughtful by reasonable arguments the prophethood of Moses, of Christ and of the other Divine Manifestations. And the proofs and evidences which we give are not based on traditional but on rational arguments.

Excatly ..

 

[Popeyesays]

You know well that the Torah wasn't for all mankind but for the sons of Israel as well as the Injeel when Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of israel and both, Torah and Injeel were corrupted and changed from it's original form. Nevertheless, Quran was the last revelation for all mankind and Mohamed the last Apostle of God and Islam is not corrupted the same as the pervious revelations so why then?

Moses and Jesus told us about Mohammed. Did any Apostle of God told us about the Bab and Baha`u'llah?

Did he fulfill any prophicy?


Excatly ..

My friend,

I cannot tell you how much I enjoy talking with you. I believe that God protects His word - the Torah and the Injeel may have incorrect information sometimes, but the essentials of the message have been protected by God.

As to prophecies in the Torah and the Gospels, here are some and some links to further explanation:

http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/daniel.htm For the prophecies contained within the Book of Daniel.

"...The essential fact is that all are promised two Manifestations, Who will come, one following on the other. It has been prophesied that in the time of these two Manifestations the earth will be transformed, the world of existence will be renewed, and beings will be clothed in new garments. Justice and truth will encompass the world; enmity and hatred will disappear; all causes of division among peoples, races and nations will vanish; and the cause of union, harmony and concord will appear. The negligent will awake, the blind will see, the deaf will hear, the dumb will speak, the sick will be cured, the dead will arise. War will give place to peace, enmity will be conquered by love, the causes of dispute and wrangling will be entirely removed, and true felicity will be attained. The world will become the mirror of the Heavenly Kingdom; humanity will be the Throne of Divinity. All nations will become one; all religions will be unified; all individual men will become of one family and of one kindred. All the regions of the earth will become one; the superstitions caused by races, countries, individuals, languages and politics will disappear; and all men will attain to life eternal, under the shadow of the Lord of Hosts.

Now we must prove from the Holy Books that these two Manifestations have come, and we must divine the meaning of the words of the Prophets, for we wish for proofs drawn from the Holy Books. " The rest of the commentary is at the link above.

The books of Micah and Isaiah are discussed at this link:
http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/isaiah.htm

"BAHA’U’LLAH’S CLAIM
Baha’u’llah, the Prophet founder of the Baha’i Faith, explicitly claimed to be the "redeemer" whose coming was foretold in the Old Testament Book of Isaiah. Baha’u’llah[size=-1] (pronounced: ba HA’ oh LAH) [/size]wrote:


"I am the One Whom the tongue of Isaiah hath extolled, the One with Whose name both the Torah and the Evangel were adorned."[size=-2]-The Promised Day is Come, page 34[/size] Is there any evidence to support such a claim? Is Baha’u’llah truly the Promised One? Let’s take a closer look at what Isaiah actually wrote to see how closely Baha’u’llah fits the description that Isaiah gives of the "redeemer". . . . . "

http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/rev11.htm
"In the beginning of the eleventh chapter of the Revelation of St. John it is said: "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." . . . .

http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/rev12.htm
"We have before explained that what is most frequently meant by the Holy City, the Jerusalem of God, which is mentioned in the Holy Book, is the Law of God. It is compared sometimes to a bride, and sometimes to Jerusalem, and again to the new heaven and earth. So in chapter 21, verses 1, 2 and 3 of the Revelation of St. John, it is said: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God." . . .


http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/tmpccc.htm (Note that in this essay, "Jews" equals the Jewish priesthood of the time, not the community of Jews of the time)
"When Christ came they denounced and slew Him, saying: `This is not the One for whom we wait. Behold when the Messiah shall come, signs and wonders shall testify that He is in truth the Christ. We know the signs and conditions, and they have not appeared. The Messiah will arise out of an unknown city. He shall sit upon the throne of David, and behold, He shall come with a sword of steel, and with a sceptre of iron shall He rule! He shall fulfil the law of the Prophets, He shall conquer the East and the West, and shall glorify His chosen people the Jews. He shall bring with Him a reign of peace, during which even the animals shall cease to be at enmity with man. For behold the wolf and the lamb shall drink from the same spring, and the lion and the doe shall lie down in the same pasture, the serpent and the mouse shall share the same nest, and all God's creatures shall be at rest'. . . . "


http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/intrprt.htm
"It is a cause of great happiness to me that you are turning unto the Kingdom of God, that you desire to approach the presence of God and to become informed of the realities and precepts of God. It is my hope that you may put forth your most earnest endeavor to accomplish this end, that you may investigate and study the Holy Scriptures word by word so that you may attain knowledge of the mysteries hidden therein. Be not satisfied with words, but seek to understand the spiritual meanings hidden in the heart of the words. . . . "

At any rate, this is a good way to start, none of the articles is terribly long.

Regards,
Scott

 

[arthra]

The Truth wrote:

You know what?

We are not going anywhere with this discusion about Nabi and Rasul because we will reach no common point at all.

My reply:

I base my view on what was revealed in the Baha'i Writings. While we both accept Prophet Muhammad... our view of Him differs.

Truth:

Let's go for the bigger picture ..

Reply:

Understanding the issue of Rasul and Nabi is "the Bigger picture".

Truth:

Why we need an Apostle after Mohammed?

Reply:

Of course God decides... "And there comes not to them a newly revealed Message from (Allah) Most Gracious but they turn away therefrom." - Qur'an 26:5

Truth wrote:

Is islam incomplete?

My reply:

There are social ordinances that were revealed for the time but that time passed...

"None of Our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but we substitute better or similar one, knowest Thou not that Allah hath power over allthings." - Qur'an 2:106

Truth wrote:

What did Baha'allah added more than what Mohammed "peace be upon him" did teach us?

Reply:

This world requires a new approach to the social and political problems that are not really provided for in the dispensation of Prophet Muhammad or the previous Prophets. What is the new approach? Abandoning Jihad as a military struggle... Recognizing the need for a world parliament and international court to establish peace... among others.

Truth:

Is it just because my brothers in Baha'i faith think it's like a cycle of prophets with no specific reason or there was a reason why we need more Apostles of God?

Reply:

We should consider the "big picture" as above:

"All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness.."

- revealed by Baha'u'llah in the Hidden Words

Truth wrote:

Can we compare the Baha'i scriptures with Torah, Injeel and Quran in it's events and completing each other?

Reply:

Read the Kitab-i-Iqan and you will see an example of how they complete one another:

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/

Truth:

With this kind of questions we can get to the truth together "in sha Allah"

My reply:

God's will be done...We should be grateful that God has allowed us the freedom to discuss these issues here as otherwise in many places it is not allowed.

Truth:

You know well that the Torah wasn't for all mankind but for the sons of Israel as well as the Injeel when Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of israel and both, Torah and Injeel were corrupted and changed from it's original form.
Nevertheless, Quran was the last revelation for all mankind and Mohamed the last Apostle of God and Islam is not corrupted the same as the pervious revelations so why then?

Reply:

Baha'u'llah revealed that God would not allow the "corruption" of the Gospel and Torah.. this is a common belief among many but it is not held by us...

"Can a man who believeth in a book, and deemeth it to be inspired by God, mutilate it? Moreover, the Pentateuch (Torah) had been spread over the surface of the earth, and was not confined to Mecca and Medina, so that they could privily corrupt and pervert its text."

And regarding the Gospel:

"We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?"


Read Surih 5 verse 50:

"Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.."

How can the people of the Gospel judge if the Gospel was corrupted?

____________________

What does "corrupting of the text" mean?

Baha'u'llah tells us:

"Nay, rather, by corruption of the text is meant that in which all Muslim divines are engaged today, that is the interpretation of God’s holy Book in accordance with their idle imaginings and vain desires."

Truth:

Moses and Jesus told us about Mohammed. Did any Apostle of God told us about the Bab and Baha`u'llah?

Reply:

Yes... if you will accept it but this goes back also to our original view that the Seal of the Prophets referred to Nabiyim rather than to Rasuli.

Consider also "Yum-id-Din". In Qur'an 51:5-6

"Varily that which ye are promised is true and verily justice must indeed come to pass..."

"Wa 'innad-Diina lawaaqi" refers to a new religion. There is more...

- Art

 

[time_spender]

Salam And Hi
I read some points in the continuing posts.
I had a wonderful wonderful wonderful trip 2 Mashhad(And not Karbala,But if Allah wants i will go there 2).I spent my time with 50 religious ppl and i enjoyed talking with them.They opened my mind and being in a holy place helpt 2!
i Hope that having imams as a friend helps me in the Quyiamat inshAllah(friends help u to see the truth better...i have found that every verse of Quran is living in the Imams lifes.they are the alive Quran!)

these 5 days helpt me to understand many things!
1-decrease my posts in forums i,m discussing ,and try hard to do Allah's will.thats because i,m a little small(20 years old!)and my best period of life is in 19-25(the biggest amount of energy lies in thsi age)...after that i will try to come and type in the forums(if they survive till then and me 2!!)
so i,m trying to pure myself and then help others!
i will sure read ur topics and use ur knowledge.it will help me to find the truth faster.so please try to keep the fr alive!!
2-do everything for ur creator and for no one else...if u feel one word comes out that is not in his way, stop it
3- i wish success for all the muslims, christians,jews , zoroastrians and any group that believes in one lord and his holy prophets!remember me in ur prayers.
I hope others find the way...Ameen

and now the continue!(maybe my last post in my three forums!!)
Popeyesays , ur sure bigger than me and i respect u much.i dont attack ur beleifs.i respect them in a single view. but in others i can pray so u can find the truth.
Hope Truth can satisfy u and i pray for him 2.enjoy talking with him and try to think about his words!May Allah show us the way.I prayed for u in Mashhad 2.Hope Allah shows s the way.InshAllah

the minimum effect of this thread made me to read more about Bahaism.
I was just suprised about what happened about bab in Iran and i was saying with myself : How can ppl accept his words! I cant understand it...maybe the problem is ME!
let me tell some of them in this post.I will not respond more but i will sure read the posts that come after me.I love 2 learn more! Knowledge is power!!
one of the captures of bab in the "GHajaariya" period was intresting:
He confesses that he is a prophet. they ask him:" what is ur miracle?"
he says"i have verses for this walking stick...and he reads a verse in arabic"
then the book continues "those that were listening were suprised!...why? because Mr Bab read on of the words wrong!!! he said "Samaavaata" and its obvious for those who know arabic that we cant use "a" for samaavaat!!!(i was suprised 2..coz i have read arabic enough to understand the mistake! they tested us with such a test in my university intrance exam!!!!!!!!)

after that he admits he is not a prophet and he didnt understand what he was saying before!
he signs this in one of the source document of ghajariye!!!!

or in another historical source it adds:
the minister of shah sends a letter to the "ollamas"(Mullahs) and wants from them to kill the Bab(E'dam)
the mullahs reply:"because maybe he is lunatic we cant give the fatva.he hasnt the qualifications of a normal man so we cant give the "ed'am" order!!!"

Maybe i cant translate the words right(and sure i havent!) but for me it was very intresting!
or in another part it talks about the seal of the prophets:
"bahais say that the vord khatam-in the verse that explains the finishing job of prophets-means ring!!"
then the book continues" the pronouncation of the word khatam can be as follow:
katem,khatam,khatim and....
and then it explains for all of them(all of them point to a finish) and finishes like this:
"how can the bahais accept that khatam means ring when the meaning ring is a lost word among the another meanings of khatam. the weakness come from understanding Arabic and misundertanding that how Mohammad(AS) used the word...."

sorry 4 all the mistakes i have done!(sure u have said that he cant talk properly!)
i still say that Bahai is a political religion made by the zioinists to break the power of the muslims. all the mishaps we have is coz of the zionism (4 all the ppl...but unfortunatly 90% of them are sleep.even some of the muslims!)

I finish my words and i excuse coz of making nonsense !!
I hope everyone in this forum and everyone in the world wakes up so the time of the coming saviour starts...INSHALLAH

Plz enjoy dicussing with eachother.
hope 2 see u in Heaven InshALlah....Ya ALlah
~mohammad
the smallest member of the believer group

 

[Popeyesays]

Salam And Hi3- i wish success for all the muslims, christians,jews , zoroastrians and any group that believes in one lord and his holy prophets!remember me in ur prayers.
I hope others find the way...Ameen

One cannot but note that you left Baha`i's off your list.

and now the continue!(maybe my last post in my three forums!!)
Popeyesays , ur sure bigger than me and i respect u much.i dont attack ur beleifs.i respect them in a single view. but in others i can pray so u can find the truth.
Hope Truth can satisfy u and i pray for him 2.enjoy talking with him and try to think about his words!May Allah show us the way.I prayed for u in Mashhad 2.Hope Allah shows s the way.InshAllah

the minimum effect of this thread made me to read more about Bahaism.

Yet you still refuse to read the words of the Bab or Baha`u'llah. You do not even know that "Bahaism" is an antiquated word. It is like saying: "Christianityism" or "Islamism" or "Mahomedism".

I was just suprised about what happened about bab in Iran and i was saying with myself : How can ppl accept his words! I cant understand it...maybe the problem is ME!
let me tell some of them in this post.I will not respond more but i will sure read the posts that come after me.I love 2 learn more! Knowledge is power!!
one of the captures of bab in the "GHajaariya" period was intresting:
He confesses that he is a prophet. they ask him:" what is ur miracle?"
he says"i have verses for this walking stick...and he reads a verse in arabic"
then the book continues "those that were listening were suprised!...why? because Mr Bab read on of the words wrong!!! he said "Samaavaata" and its obvious for those who know arabic that we cant use "a" for samaavaat!!!(i was suprised 2..coz i have read arabic enough to understand the mistake! they tested us with such a test in my university intrance exam!!!!!!!!)

after that he admits he is not a prophet and he didnt understand what he was saying before!
he signs this in one of the source document of ghajariye!!!!

or in another historical source it adds:
the minister of shah sends a letter to the "ollamas"(Mullahs) and wants from them to kill the Bab(E'dam)
the mullahs reply:"because maybe he is lunatic we cant give the fatva.he hasnt the qualifications of a normal man so we cant give the "ed'am" order!!!"

The fatwa was signed and the Bab was executed infront of thousands at noon on July 9th in the barracks square at the military post in Tabriz. The "confession" that you mention was not signed at all. I can give you the web address for the assembled accounts of the "trial" of the Bab if you like.

Maybe i cant translate the words right(and sure i havent!) but for me it was very intresting!
or in another part it talks about the seal of the prophets:
"bahais say that the vord khatam-in the verse that explains the finishing job of prophets-means ring!!"
then the book continues" the pronouncation of the word khatam can be as follow:
katem,khatam,khatim and....
and then it explains for all of them(all of them point to a finish) and finishes like this:
"how can the bahais accept that khatam means ring when the meaning ring is a lost word among the another meanings of khatam. the weakness come from understanding Arabic and misundertanding that how Mohammad(AS) used the word...."

No the "Seal" is the warrant of purity, truth and authority that the mark on the document gives - not the ring.

sorry 4 all the mistakes i have done!(sure u have said that he cant talk properly!)
i still say that Bahai is a political religion made by the zioinists to break the power of the muslims. all the mishaps we have is coz of the zionism (4 all the ppl...but unfortunatly 90% of them are sleep.even some of the muslims!)

I finish my words and i excuse coz of making nonsense !!
I hope everyone in this forum and everyone in the world wakes up so the time of the coming saviour starts...INSHALLAH

Plz enjoy dicussing with eachother.
hope 2 see u in Heaven InshALlah....Ya ALlah
~mohammad
the smallest member of the believer group

You don't make nonsense, you are merely parroting the propaganda you have grown up with all your life.
I have a series of questions I hope you will deign to answer:
"Why should a Baha`i who will not lie and say he is a muslim be barred from the university that you get to attend?"

"Why should Baha`i cemetaries and Holy Places be destroyed in Iran?"

"Why shoul Baha`i's be imprisoned and executed in Iran for professing their faith? The last to die was on December 28th, 2005 - he died in prison for a ten year term for being Baha`i and once serving on a local spiritual assembly in Iran."

Looking forward to an answer and knowing one will not come, since you have spread your poison and run away.

Scott

 

[TashaN]

My friend,

I cannot tell you how much I enjoy talking with you.

The same here ..

I believe that God protects His word - the Torah and the Injeel may have incorrect information sometimes, but the essentials of the message have been protected by God.

Mohammed "peace be upon him" told his followers to not believe in all what the pervious scriptures tell and at the same time to not reject all but we can only acknowledge Quran as a source for the religion and nothing else.

As to prophecies in the Torah and the Gospels, here are some and some links to further explanation:

I guess the discussion will be so complicated when we attach the Torah and Injeel because i'm a beginner in those scriptures and also i don't trust them 100%.

Thanks for the links but i prefer to go for Quran.

 

[arthra]

Timespender wrote:

i still say that Bahai is a political religion made by the zioinists to break the power of the muslims. all the mishaps we have is coz of the zionism (4 all the ppl...but unfortunatly 90% of them are sleep.even some of the muslims!)

My reply:

Well I can see my friend Timespender that you have listened to a lot of propaganda and believed it (Where I live we have a saying that you have "swallowed a big fish story")...that is so sad and I think those who have perpetrated such a fraud among people will someday be better educated.

The Baha'i Faith began in Iran and Iraq while the Persian Empire and the Ottoman Empire were in power...

Baha'u'llah declared His Mission in the Najibiyyih Garden in Bagdad in April, 1863.

Later Baha'u'llah was Himself exiled to Akka then a Penal Colony in 1868...

Zionism was hardly a movement then.

Theodor Herzl (May 2, 1860 – July 3, 1904) was an Austrian Jewish journalist who became the founder of modern political Zionism In 1897, he founded Die Welt of Vienna.

Source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

So you see my dear friend there is absolutely no connection between the Baha'i Faith and Zionism.

Why are the Baha'is located in the Haifa area?

We were there because Baha'u'llah and His family was exiled to Akka by the government of the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire...long before the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and long before WWI and the British Protectorate and long before Israel became a State in 1948.

- Art

 

[Popeyesays]

http://bahai-library.com/?file=fananapazir_fazel_finality_islam.html

This essay is very important to our discussion, and I regret it is too long to quote in its entirety. Please read it, there are two authors: Seena Fazell and Khazeh Fananapazir (who wrote the material I quoted to you on the other topic.

"The Founder of Islam as Khátam




"As indicated earlier, many traditions exist which take the phrase khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) to mean "the last prophet." However, the completion of some activity is only one meaning of "seal". The historical use of this word provides other interpretations as follows.

"Sealing may also be a guarantee of authenticity, or a device designed to prevent the unauthorised opening of a receptacle without knowledge of the owner. In pre-Muslim Arabia, seals were used in place of a signature, giving validity to a document. They were also utilised as a guarantee that property was kept intact and thus took the place of locks and keys. The possession of another person's seal was evidence that the latter had delegated his authority. Pharaoh, for example, gave Joseph his signet as a sign of authority (Gen 41:42). Jezebel forged a letter in Ahab's name and sealed it with Ahab's seal to give it validity (1 Kings 21:8). Tradition has a certain amount to say about Muhammad's khátam (seal). For instance, Al-Bukhari recounts that the Prophet wished to write to the Byzantines, and was told that it would not be read unless it had a seal on it. He therefore adopted a silver seal with the inscription `Muhammad rasúl Alláh' at the year 7 A.H. (Allan, Khátam 1103).

"The expression khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) is found in several places in classical Arabic poetry. A verse in the Díwán of Umayya b. Abí al-Salt speaks of the Prophet as the one "by means of whom God sealed [khatama] the prophets [nabiyyín] before him and after him" (Prophecy 57). This verse implies the appearance of prophets after Muhammad, so that the verb khatama here cannot be understood to mean the termination of something. Friedmann suggests the possibility that it means "he stamped upon them his seal [of approval]" (ibid). This idea that the Prophet came to confirm the former prophets is supported by Qur'án 37:37: "he cometh with truth and confirmeth the Sent Ones [mursalin] of old."[30]

"There are other indications that the belief in the finality of Muhammad's prophethood was not generally accepted in the early days of Islam. In a gloss explaining the expression of khayr al-khawátim (the best of the seals) used in the Naqá'id, the commentator Abú `Ubayda who died in 209 A.H. says, "He [the poet] means that the Prophet . . . is the seal of the prophets, which means he is the best of the prophets" (Naqá'id 349). A similar interpretation is given by Abú Riyásh al-Qaysí in his commentary on al-Kumayt's Háshimiyyat. Commentating on a verse in which the prophet is referred to as khátam (or khátim) al-anbiyá', Abú Riyásh says that the meaning of khátim al-anbiyá' is someone who seals the prophets; khátam al-anbiyá', on the other hand, means "beauty of the prophets" or "the best of them" (Friedmann, Prophecy 57). Another explicit tradition that supports this idea is attributed to `Á'isha, who said, "Say [that the Prophet is] the seal of the prophets and do not say that there is no prophet after him" (Al-Suyúti, qtd. in Friedmann, Prophecy 63). The phrase khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) here cannot mean "the last prophet", but is understandable in the sense of the best prophet. Also, the foremost Kúfí grammarian al-Tha'lad held that "al-khátim is the one who sealed the prophets and al-khátam is the best of the prophets in character and physical constitution" (Al-`Ayní, qtd. in Friedmann, Prophecy 58).

"These doxological[31] interpretations of seal seem to indicate that even in the third century of Islam, there still existed different interpretations of khátam al-anbiyá' (seal of the prophets). These interpretations also found their way into hadíth literature. For instance, there is a saying of the Imam `Alí that "Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets [khátam al-anbiyá'] and I am the Seal of the Successors [khátam al-wasiyyín]" (Majlisí, Bihár 4-5).[32] If seal solely meant termination, then how can one understand `Alí as sealing the successorship, when there were to be eleven Imams after him according to Shi`i belief and the Caliphate was to continue after him in the history of Sunni Islam? Also, one Bahá'í writer discusses the implications of a hadíth in which the Prophet is reported to have said, "I am the last prophet and the mosque I am constructing is the last mosque." Rawshani argues that if by the term "last mosque" is understood that no other mosque will be built in the dispensation of Islam, then clearly this is an absurd contradiction, unless it was used in a doxological manner. . . .
"In summary, there is cogent evidence to suggest that the word khátam (seal) did not mean `the last' in a temporal sense to early Muslims. There are instances in classical Arabic poetry and hadíth literature to suggest that the word khátam (seal) was used to mean `the one who confirmed' (the prophets of the past), and understood in a honorific way as `the best' (of the prophets)."

Your friend,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

Understanding the issue of Rasul and Nabi is "the Bigger picture"

If you don't know arabic so i'll have a problem in explaining to you the meaning of Khatam but if you know arabic well then we can go for it.

I'll use arabic words here if necessary.

Ready?

Of course God decides... "And there comes not to them a newly revealed Message from (Allah) Most Gracious but they turn away therefrom." - Qur'an 26:5

This verse is about the message of Mohammed "peace be upon him" and nothing else.

Can you prove that this verse talk about Baha'i faith from a valid bias source or it's just an asumption?

Please read the Tafseer and try to understand the meaning of the verse in it's context before you post it here, deal?

There are social ordinances that were revealed for the time but that time passed...

"None of Our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but we substitute better or similar one, knowest Thou not that Allah hath power over allthings." - Qur'an 2:106

You still have the same problem.

This verse talk about a huge main issue in Islam which is some verses when Allah substitute or cause it to be forgotten and there are many examples of it in Quran and i can provide you with it if you want so.

by the way, the verse is: ما ننسخ من ءاية أو ننسها ... and the word in red is Ayah "verse" and the place where is the translation says "revelations" actually means a verse in Arabic and sometimes revelations too but in this particular verse, it means verse and you can check the Tafseer or i can provide you with it if you are intersted.

This world requires a new approach to the social and political problems that are not really provided for in the dispensation of Prophet Muhammad or the previous Prophets. What is the new approach? Abandoning Jihad as a military struggle... Recognizing the need for a world parliament and international court to establish peace... among others.

Jihad will always be there when necessary to maintain peace and to defend our own land from enemies.

We should consider the "big picture" as above:

"All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness.."

I'm not seeing the "big picture" anywhere because we are not done yet with the prophicy of Baha'ullah.

Read the Kitab-i-Iqan and you will see an example of how they complete one another:

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/

Is this the holy scriptures for Baha'i faith?

I have read some of it and it's just a normal book and the writer is talking about God and his prophets and that we must believe in them, etc.

Baha'u'llah revealed that God would not allow the "corruption" of the Gospel and Torah.. this is a common belief among many but it is not held by us...

So you believe the Torah and Injeel are accurate isn't it? 100%?

Read Surih 5 verse 50:

"Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.."

How can the people of the Gospel judge if the Gospel was corrupted?

Can you please recheck the verse number for me?

Until then do a favor for me by reading these two verse.

[15] O People of the Book! there hath come to you Our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book.


[16] Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His Will, unto the light, guideth them to a Path that is Straight.

(Quran 5:15-16)

Yes... if you will accept it but this goes back also to our original view that the Seal of the Prophets referred to Nabiyim rather than to Rasuli.

Ya sure, and a Rasul can't be so if he wasn't a Nabi.

Consider also "Yum-id-Din". In Qur'an 51:5-6

"Varily that which ye are promised is true and verily justice must indeed come to pass..."

"Wa 'innad-Diina lawaaqi" refers to a new religion. There is more...

[6] And verily Judgment and Justice must indeed come to pass.

This more accurate translation and 'innad-Diina lawaaqi' refer to the judgment day.

 

[Popeyesays]

The Kitab'i Iqan was written in Baghdad somewhere between 1856 and 1860. It was a long response to the questions of one of the maternal uncles of the Bab. He was in a quandry over whether he could accept the revelation of His Nephew, the Bab and balance that with the needs of belief in Muhammed and Islam.

The Bab had three maternal uncles who raised Him. One accepted Him immediately and was in fact martyred in 1852. The second refused to believe in Him at all, and refused to travel with the third uncle to have Baha`u'llah answer his questions for Him.

Yes, the Iqan is indeed, sacred text. Baha`u'llah wrote quite a bit between 1852 (The Tablet of All Food) and His passing 1892 - His last book length work was in 1889 Epistle to the Son of the Wolf. Basic reading would be The Arabic Hidden Words, The Persian Hidden Words, the Iqan, The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys, and The Tablets of Baha`u'llah, and Gleanings which is an anthology of other tablets and utterances.

I'll try to get you a link to the Arabic Hidden Words in Arabic if you like.

The original Qur'an was written in Arabic without diacritical marks. In this language the word Khaatam was written. Without diacritical marks the word could be pronounced other ways. This results in some confusion today when "Khatam" is read, because it could be "khatim", if the diacriticals were not present.

WHo decided where to place the diacriticals and which ones to use? This happened decades to centuries after Umar's original recision. What was right and what was wrong and what might be misread when the words could be one word or another?
Regards,
Scott

 

[arthra]

My dear "Truth" we've covered a lot of ground here... but you'll recall that the original question was whether the Baha'i Faith is a genuine religion and so even though we may disagree here as to "Tafseer" because we accept a different interpretation being Baha'is I would sincerely like to know your view on this.... Is the Baha'i Faith a real religion your view?

If you agree that it is...then the original issue has been dealt with and resolved.

- Art

 

[Popeyesays]

I think the dialogue with "Truth" has shown one thing superbly well: Men of good faith can divert their honest searches for God and still remain brethren in the search. If that is a fact then I cannot be Kafir to Truth and he can never be Kafir to me. We may disagree on where our feet might be placed but we can agree whole-heartedly that what sparks our search is the search for God and how to embrace the will of God.

Regards,

Scott

 

[arthra]

My dear "Truth" we've covered a lot of ground here... but you'll recall that the original question was whether the Baha'i Faith is a genuine religion and so even though we may disagree here as to "Tafseer" because we accept a different interpretation being Baha'is I would sincerely like to know your view on this.... Is the Baha'i Faith a real religion your view?

If you agree that it is...then the original issue has been dealt with and resolved.

The verse you asked about can be found in the A.Yusuf Ali English translation of Holy Qur'an:

Read Surih 5 verse 50:

"Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.."

How can the people of the Gospel judge if the Gospel was corrupted?

- Art

 

[TashaN]

I would sincerely like to know your view on this.... Is the Baha'i Faith a real religion your view?

[19] The religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): nor did the people of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account. (Quran 3:19)

[85] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (Quran 3:85)


I acknowledge only Islam and the rest are the same to me not because i said so but because Allah said so.



Peace ...