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Is atheism a belief?

Is atheism a belief?


  • Total voters
    70

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Anyone and everyone who has overcome superstitious beliefs and seen the light of rational thinking is most
This is not true.
Agnostic deists, like @oldbadger and myself, are commonly excluded from the atheist club by people like @9-10ths_Penguin.
We're not True Atheists.
But we have left religion behind.

Not that I want to be a member of a club with certain people.
Tom
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
This is not true.
Agnostic deists, like @oldbadger and myself, are commonly excluded from the atheist club by people like @9-10ths_Penguin.
We're not True Atheists.
But we have left religion behind.

Not that I want to be a member of a club with certain people.
Tom
Literally the only requirement to be an atheist is not to believe in any gods.

Someone who believes in a non-interventionist god still believes in a god.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
It would appear we're not talking about the same thing. What is your definition of a god?
I'm talking about all those entities that man has created over the centuries. What's there to define? Gods is a manmade construct.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Literally the only requirement to be an atheist is not to believe in any gods.

Someone who believes in a non-interventionist god still believes in a god.
I find hard atheism nearly as irrational as fundamentalist Abrahamic religion.

They all think that they can define god well enough to have a firm opinion on the subject.
Tom
 

ecco

Veteran Member
This is not true.
Agnostic deists, like @oldbadger and myself, are commonly excluded from the atheist club by people like @9-10ths_Penguin.
We're not True Atheists.
But we have left religion behind.

Not that I want to be a member of a club with certain people.
Tom

So you are saying that some people do no accept that you self define as an atheist. Which brings up the question, do you self define as an atheist? If you self define as an "Agnostic deist" then you are not an atheist. Frankly, I don't even know what you mean by "Agnostic deist". Is that any different from being Agnostic?
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
If that's what you believe, then you are not an atheist. I guess that's like being neither Republican nor Democrat but rather Independent. Some would suggest that's a wishy-washy viewpoint.
 
For most atheists, atheism is not a belief. It is the lack thereof.

I'd be very surprised if that were true. If you asked a large number of atheists "do you believe no gods exist?" most would say yes.

Not because they prefer one definition over the other, but simply because most wouldn't make any distinction between these positions as they don't read the kind of sources that consider this important. I've genuinely never heard anyone make the distinction IRL and most atheists I know would happily admit they believe there are no gods.

You really think the average atheist actually cares about what are largely quibbling technicalities with no functional difference?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I find hard atheism nearly as irrational as fundamentalist Abrahamic religion.

They all think that they can define god well enough to have a firm opinion on the subject.
Tom
It's not about defining "god."

When you say that you're a deist, you're telling me that you believe in something that you consider a god. My judgement of whether I would consider the thing you believe in a god as well is irrelevant.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I'm talking about all those entities that man has created over the centuries. What's there to define? Gods is a manmade construct.
What about a God image that isn't an entity, and has never been defined or described?

Maybe the reason that you and I disagree is that you are an Abrahamic atheist?
Tom
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'd be very surprised if that were true. If you asked a large number of atheists "do you believe no gods exist?" most would say yes.
If you ask a large number of Americans "do you own a hat?" most would say "yes." This doesn't mean that owning a hat is part of what makes a person American.
 
If you ask a large number of Americans "do you own a hat?" most would say "yes." This doesn't mean that owning a hat is part of what makes a person American.

I wasn't talking about the best dictionary definition of atheism, but what people actually believe.

Do you think most atheist actually care about trivial distinctions with no functional impact on anything?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
This is not true.
Agnostic deists, like @oldbadger and myself, are commonly excluded from the atheist club by people like @9-10ths_Penguin.
We're not True Atheists.
But we have left religion behind.

Not that I want to be a member of a club with certain people.
Tom

I don't mind the people so much..... got used to 'em.
But they offer such rubbish beer over the bar.

I also acknowledge that I am not a full member of the atheist mob, simply content to hang around in the non-Theist corridor.

:D
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
If you've slapped the label "God" on a thing, you've described it to some degree.
In what way have I described God?
I think you are attributing a description to my god image that I have never made.

I'm not surprised. We both live in a predominantly Abrahamic world. It's hard to dodge the assertions made about the True God, they're just so pervasive. But I stopped accepting their authority a long time ago.
Tom
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I find hard atheism nearly as irrational as fundamentalist Abrahamic religion.

They all think that they can define god well enough to have a firm opinion on the subject.
Tom

I don't profess to know what they all think. I'll just talk about my firm opinion.

What do you mean by "define god well enough"? Gods are constructs of man's imaginings. Period.

A mouse whistling while piloting a sidewheeler is a construct of man's imaginings. There is no difference between the two. There is no more rational reason to give credence to the actual existence of one over the other. Or Physic SnowFlakes or a man who can spin webs after being bitten by a radioactive spider.

If you give more credence to one over the others, it is probably because all your life you heard about gods and just accepted the concept, until you realized that even the concept was just too silly. But, somewhere, in the deep recesses of that part of your brain that formed when you were a child, there is still that spark of "maybe".

If you are the one who thinks "maybe" then it is up to you to define Him/Her/It and explain why you think "maybe".
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I'm talking about all those entities that man has created over the centuries. What's there to define? Gods is a manmade construct.

What about a God image that isn't an entity, and has never been defined or described?

But that's not the definition of "god" is it?
That's not a description of a "god" is it?
I don't know anyone who considers god to be "an image that isn't an entity and has never been defined or described".

So, let's try to stay on the subject of gods - OK.






Maybe the reason that you and I disagree is that you are an Abrahamic atheist?
Tom

We both know that you have lost the argument when you begin to resort to childish name-calling. What's next? Are you going to refer to me as a poopy-head atheist?
 

j1i

Smiling is charity without giving money
I get where you are coming from, I do. That thought and opinion are relative. I argue this myself all the time. My go-to example is the common house-fly. We humans think that human life is precious, however the house-fly would much rather encounter a dead human body than a live one. The fly's perspective is that he/she doesn't care, at all, about human life. The fly cares whether or not something is a prospective meal, and a warm, moist, nutritious place to lay eggs. Beyond this, it does not concern itself of the current or former welfare of the corpse lying before it.

But NONE of what you said gets at the true base that I argue we have ALL adopted, and that cannot rationally be denied. My stance is simply to call for more of the same, and deeper adherence to it. And that position is "adhere to the evidence" And by evidence, I am not talking about your intuition, your feelings, or your hopes and dreams - those are not the kinds of "evidence" to which I am referring. And this is exactly where I can definitively say that YOU have gone off the rails. All this talk between us, and NOT ONCE have you provided any useful evidence. Not once. And the huge error in judgment here is that YOU THINK YOU HAVE. That's the sad state of affairs we are looking at here. Somehow your mind has become completely warped as to what stands for evidence.

And the reason I state that we are all adherents to the "religion of evidence" is that we use it in proper ways CONSTANTLY, every day of our lives. Take learning to walk for example. When learning to walk, balance ends up being pretty key to properly mastering maintenance of the human gait. Having only two proper legs, humans must walk upright, and our walk ends up being (as some others have put it) more of a constant, graceful falling. Your mind helps you in this endeavor automatically, but basically what is going on is that the feedback of your senses is the "evidence" that your mind uses to determine what works and what doesn't. If you over-compensate for gravity pulling you in one direction or another, your mind takes note. Too much force from one foot, not enough from the other... try it a bit differently next time. And so, based on the evidence of your progressively more successful, intended stride, you learn to walk on two legs as well as you are able, or well enough that your walk is acceptable to you. Every minute movement you make with ANY amount of confidence can only be made at all deftly because you have EVIDENCE that what you are doing, the acts you are taking, the thoughts you are having, etc. works in the way you expect it to. You can move your arm to touch your nose, with your eyes closed, because you have previous evidence of the placement of your nose, you have prior evidence that your arms will obey your commands/thoughts and you have evidence that the precise length of your arms will line up to place your finger upon your nose at a very exacting set of coordinates in relative space. ALL OF THAT activity is BASED ON EVIDENCE. And that is what I propose that we adhere to. We strive to stick to the evidence, and strive to investigate and find the evidence when we have none for a proposition. And if, time after time after time we cannot find proper, compelling evidence for our proposition, then we admit that the proposition is not worth keeping in a "top of mind" space. We admit that we should not be trying to talk others into believing our proposition. We reserve our proposition for the only space in which it is even remotely warranted: OPINION.


Thank you for your kindness, frankness, and many writing for me
I appreciate you and your generosity (I read it well)

It is nice to discover the facts to support our ideas, my friend
But we cannot falsification facts in the name of science
There are metaphysical things we can not explain science, including the first creation

The atheist wants harmony with their material foundations in the interpretation of the universe and life
They were forced to say in metaphysics

Unfortunately the atheist only crosses the gate of the flag falsification
How do I reconcile myth (Superstition) with its psoriasis and that it is unintended and between faith in the Creator?
Adherents of the myth (Superstition) of evolution and atheists rely heavily on terminology manipulation

Regarding the beginning of creation, the science answers, apologize because it is not our specialty
Because science is the field of work to monitor the tangible things and their impact in the world of witness that we live
While how the first composition of objects is metaphysical does not fall under the sense of observation or experimentation

The existence of the difference between the two worlds, the world of the unseen (metaphysical) and the world of witness , a fact indicated by the sources of knowledge, including science, where it says that there must be a previous existence of matter, energy and laws studied by science

Matter, energy and laws are meanings and inanimate objects that do not create, master or create

How to find the first of living things, is beyond the norms of the basics of life, it is precedent

It precedes the reproductive processes of male and female beings as the chain of couples must form a beginning far from reproduction
This is governed by the mind and how to find this beginning is from the unseen world (metaphysical)

We can deduce, through contemplation of fossils and distributed across layers and similarities between organisms and geographically distributed and genetic material about how the first creation was an independent creation or of common origins
The answer may be reached in more than one way

If two objects resemble, they can reasonably be independent creation similar or that one of them came out of the other and there is no way to limit the possibilities to one of them through science
One of the basics of experimental science is that if I enter the laboratory and follow specific steps and produce a chemical compound, the shortest thing I can say is that these steps lead to this compound
If I know that there is more than one way to produce this chemical and then I see the same compound in the hands of others, I can not judge that it produced the same steps, but may have been produced by other interactions
This is a scientific principle and applicable and the subject of agreement even if any researcher discuss the scientific results of any experiment on the same basis of the first, rejection of his research and conclusions

So how it is the first metaphysical creation of various beings, which is not determined by options

The result is that there is a Creator of absolute power and will, and that his actions are not subject to material laws

How do we know if the Creator brought out objects of common origin or created them independently
How do we know the answer to this metaphysical question?
Objects appeared in many forms and complex from ancient time and it help you when you see that it is not above the ground or under it, nor in the present or the past the impact of randomness or blindness or confusion and unsuccessful attempts to produce objects

The trap that atheists try to follow is the adaptation of verses of religions to fit the myths (Superstition) of false science, because this is an appropriate behavior for certainty.

What if the theory of evolution proves true in the future?
This question violates the most basic axioms of the philosophy of science
Because science will not come to you in the present or in the future evidence of something outside the scope of his research, as well as to bring evidence of the myth (Superstition) that opposes all generators of knowledge that science says

and this is video
please select english subtitle for any suitable language

with respect
 
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