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Featured Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ayin, Dec 22, 2020.

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  1. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    The NT is not consistent with the Tanach either. Except you as a Christian - just like Muslims about the Qur'an - either ignore or find way around that problem. You're exactly the same as them in this regard.
     
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  2. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    But 52 never mentions any messiah so introducing a new unnamed referent for "servant" is illogical when there has been precedent to have "servant" refer to Israel. Other than your own pressing need, why assume that the references as a people ends at a particular spot? Your claims about why the section cannot apply to Israel are wrong (if you had read the section I cited, you would understand the textual claims better) because you still refuse to see what the narrative structure is of the chapters. It is totally understandable that you feel the need to stick with your understanding even if it does not comport with what the text says and the context in which these sections of Isaiah are set.

    By having children, maybe. But since 53:10 doesn't say that he dies, then he can live and have long days -- because it is talking about the nation, some of whom died, and yet some who didn't, there is no contradiction.
    Clearly, it can't be talking about an individual doing anything after he dies.
    Which was a problem since money changers were required.
    Except that he cried out on the cross, so, there's that.
    No, just when he cried out asking why he had been forsaken.
    Or literally, and since Jesus, as you say, never married or had children, it can't apply to him. I notice you move to metaphor when it suits you.
    You mean like in 61:9 which refers to the descendants of Israel as "blessed seed"?
     
    #102 rosends, Dec 25, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2020
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  3. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    You don't have to follow the Old Covenant to follow God. That's up to the person. I know Christian people who became Messianic Jews after marrying Messianic Jewish people, and following both the Old and New Covenant was appropriate for them. Christianity spread after it became a gentile expression of the New Covenant because following Jewish laws wasn't something that most people could do.

    Torah Jews detested Greek because it went against their conscience. It doesn't mean that the New Testament wasn't inspired by God. Paul may have quoted Greek philosophers, but not everything in the Bible is God's words-God allowed people to add their own feelings, to a subtle extent. Paul only ideas of Greek philosophers to the extent that they didn't go against the teachings of the Old and New Covenant.
     
  4. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    [/QUOTE]

    Jesus had the right to be more stern with people than others, because Jesus was God. The verse the servant doesn't cry out but goes like a lamb means that he accepts being punished, he doesn't resist it. Isaiah didn't literally mean that he doesn't cry out. Isaiah 53:9 and Isaiah 53:12 talks about the Messiah dying, so him living and having long days refers to the resurrection. Verse 9: "And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth." Verse 12: "Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors."

    Christians being the spiritual seed of Jesus is congruent with the New Testament talking about spiritual and physical Israel. Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9 - New King James Version

    What is spiritual Israel? | GotQuestions.org

     
    #104 Skywalker, Dec 25, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2020
  5. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Here's what I'm getting from this -- Jesus, a human who was born to a woman, was actually God even thugh that is not at all part of the belief system into which he was born. Then there is this text which doesn't mention the messiah but it is about the messiah anyway, and not about the people it mentions, and the verses which say that the messiah did something don't mean that, but mean something else. But the ones that say something which coordinates, do mean what they say. I'll take a hard pass on this. Good luck.
     
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  6. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Christianity and Judaism in the start was one religion. Judaism is the Old Covenant and Christianity is the New Covenant. They exist separately but one doesn't exclude the other. Just because they have been practiced separately by many people doesn't mean that they are mutually exclusive.
     
  7. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    But theologically, they are mutually exclusive. Embracing central aspects of Christianity necessarily demands rejecting tenets of Judaism.
     
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  8. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    What aspects of Christianity disagree with the tenets of Judaism? The Old Testament doesn't disagree with the Trinity and some Christians don't believe in it. There are Christians who don't believe in original sin.
     
  9. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The idea of God having parts (like the trinity and the binity before it) separates Christianity from Judaism and is inconsistent with Jewish textual teaching. The idea that a foretold messiah has come, the idea in a second coming, the idea of a rebellious Satan also run counter to central beliefs of Judaism.

    You can, if you want, boil it down to "accepting Jesus as anything and the gospels as anything defies being called Jewish."
     
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  10. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The Old Testament doesn't say as much about Satan as the New Testament because the Bible is progressive revelation. Satan appeared with the angels in the book of Job-he wasn't one of them. The Old Testament never says that Satan is part of God's divine council-that is the interpretation of rabbis. Genesis 1:26 mentions God saying "let us make man in our image". Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 1:26-28 - King James Version

    God wasn't talking to a council of angels, because angels are not creators. God mentioned the Messiah to Eve in Genesis 3:15. Protevangelium - Wikipedia

    The Old Testament on the Second Coming of Jesus

     
    #110 Skywalker, Dec 25, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2020
  11. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    That is certainly necessary for your belief system.
    Yes, these are your beliefs. But they are alien to Judaism and how Judaism views its own texts. I could show you completely different understandings based in the texts and you would reject it because, as you say, stuff was revealed later on to different people.

    So you have the claim that stuff that you understand to be relevant defines what you believe. OK. None of it is remotely persuasive to me because my belief system doesn't drive those necessary explanations.
     
  12. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The Bible uses the term pure and undefiled religion about Christianity in James 1:27 but religion is not a good term. Judaism is the only religion that is inspired by God. That doesn't mean that being Jewish and Christian is mutually exclusive. A lot of people believe that because of the teachings of the rabbis, but rabbinic beliefs aren't mentioned in the Tanakh.
     
  13. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Everything you posted above is, according to the Hebrew Tanakh, is Avodah Zara and was forbidden, by Hashem, for Torath Mosheh Israelis/Jews. What you stated about Paul and the other authors of the NT further proves my point of why Jews who hold by Torath Mosheh were warned by Hashem not accept NT concepts.

    P.S. It isn't that "maybe" Paul quoted pagan Hellonist authors - he actually did quote them and appreciate their non-Torah based ideas. Also, the gospel authors were fond of Hellonist ideas like their concepts.

     
  14. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Paul added some of his own thoughts to the New Testament. I agree that the Hellonist philosophers had beliefs that are contrary to the Tanakh, but that doesn't mean that everything they said was wrong. Paul talked about a lot of topics that aren't mentioned in the Torah, like the beneficial-ness of people staying single. The Bible talks about not following other gods. It doesn't talk about other covenants being in the category of polytheism or idolatry.
     
  15. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for admitting what Paul's writings really contain. Christians may be okay with Paul wrote that but Hashem commanded Torah Mosheh Israelis/Jews to stay away from and reject such ideas - as the ones found in the Gospels and Paul's writings. Hashem also predicted that the original Jewish Christians would disappear off the historical map, like they did.
     
  16. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the idea of the Gospel itself goes against the Torah or Jeremiah's writings. Those Tanakh verses you mentioned about Jewish Christians talk about the New Covenant. The Old and New Covenant are not mutually exclusive, but they can be depending on the personal convictions of the person and what is relevant to their relationship with Hashem.
     
  17. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    That's because you have never read the Tanakh in Hebrew, as you admitted in another thread. The NT is 100% Avodah Zara, as Hashem explained it at Mount Sinai. That is why during the inquisition so many Jews resisted forced converstions to Christianity. That is also why the original Jewish Christians couldn't keep themselves around more than 2 generations.
     
  18. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The Tanakh never said that only one Covenant can come from God. The gospel itself doesn't literally mean that there are two religions of God, because even though the Bible uses the term in James 1:27, outside that verse, it's really not an accurate term. Judaism is the only religion that came from God. The New Covenant and Old Covenant are distinct but close cousins. The idea of the New Covenant is directly related to the Old Covenant and there being a Messiah. I believe the Messiah is God, not a belief like Zeus or Thor. Foreign worship and strange service means believing in gods that are not holy and just, that are polytheistic, that have nothing to do with the Tanakh or having a relationship with God. Job believed that the Messiah was his mediator, and not even mediators like the Old Testament priests truly had the office of a mediator like Jesus is talked about having, in the New Testament. Job Longed for a Mediator?
     
  19. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Again, by your own admission you haven't read the Hebrew Tanakh. Given that the Christian bible is based on Christian translation techniques that Hashem warned Jews to stay away from it says a lot for why so many Jews did everything they could to escape the Christian Inquisition.

    The reality is that the minute that the gospel authors wrote what they wrote they were commiting to paper Avodah Zara, as Hashem explained when the Torah was given at Mount Sinai. That is why the original Jewish Christians were not good at surviving past 2 generations. That is why even the Ebionites had a problem with Paul. Although Paul did a better job of promoting his style of Christian which outsurvived even the Christianity of James, Peter, Mark, etc.
     
  20. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Job wasn't promoting avodah zarah when he talked about the Messiah being his redeemer and mediator. Honest Talk with God: The Messiah in the Old Testament –the book of Job

    The idea of the Messiah having a New Covenant is not foreign worship or idolatry. The Jewish Christians changed because Christianity eventually spread to gentiles. Paul didn't agree with the beliefs of the Judaizers but Messianic Judaism is different.
     
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