Is according to Jews everything God's will?

[Ehav4Ever]

Job wasn't promoting avodah zarah when he talked about the Messiah being his redeemer and mediator.

The idea of the Messiah having a New Covenant is not foreign worship or idolatry. The Jewish Christians changed because Christianity eventually spread to gentiles. Paul didn't agree with the beliefs of the Judaizers but Messianic Judaism is different.

The Christian bible version of Job does promote Avodah Zara which is why we Jews were commanded by Hashem to reject such Christian versions. That is why one doesn't find Christian theological ideas in the Hebrew Tanakh. Thus, Christian missionaries have gone to extreme lengths to fool Jews. Christian translations are one method that they use.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The Jewish Christians changed because Christianity eventually spread to gentiles. Paul didn't agree with the beliefs of the Judaizers but Messianic Judaism is different.

The original Jewish Christians didn't change. THEY DISAPPEARED! Even the writings of Jude describe that they were starting to have problems. That is why there are no Jews today who descend from James, Peter, Paul, etc. It is because of their Avodah Zara ideas, like the ones mentioned in John 1 and also the entire book of Hebrews, as well as others.

 

[Skywalker]

The original Jewish Christians didn't change. THEY DISAPPEARED! Even the writings of Jude describe that they were starting to have problems. That is why there are no Jews today who descend from James, Peter, Paul, etc. It is because of their Avodah Zara ideas, like the ones mentioned in John 1 and also the entire book of Hebrews, as well as others.

The Jewish Christians adopted the beliefs of the Jews who didn't believe in Jesus. Even most gentiles didn't believe in Jesus.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The Jewish Christians adopted the beliefs of the Jews who didn't believe in Jesus. Even most gentiles didn't believe in Jesus.

Thus, they dissappeared exactly as Hashem predicted would happen to those Jews who accept Avodah Zara. J4J claims that they mixed into the non-Jewish Christian population. Thus, today no one can identify the descendants of James, Peter, Paul, etc. today because they could not manage their existance independently.

 

[Skywalker]

The Christian bible version of Job does promote Avodah Zara which is why we Jews were commanded by Hashem to reject such Christian versions. That is why one doesn't find Christian theological ideas in the Hebrew Tanakh. Thus, Christian missionaries have gone to extreme lengths to fool Jews. Christian translations are one method that they use.

The book of Job used the word redeemer and mediator before the New Testament was written.

 

[dybmh]

Keeping it very simple; what you're proposing contradicts Torah.

Job wasn't promoting avodah zarah when he talked about the Messiah being his redeemer and mediator. Honest Talk with God: The Messiah in the Old Testament –the book of

The Chrisitan approach to salvation contradicts the Torah that clearly and literally states that salvation comes from God not through a mediator. It's easiest seen in one verse Ezekiel 36:33. The linked article does not override this.

The idea of the Messiah having a New Covenant is not foreign worship or idolatry. The Jewish Christians changed because Christianity eventually spread to gentiles. Paul didn't agree with the beliefs of the Judaizers but Messianic Judaism is different.

If you go by the defintion of the New Covenant from the Christian bible, Hebrews 8:13, then the New covenant contradicts Leviticus 16:29-31 which clearly and literally states that the process of atonement performed by the Levite priests is an "eternal statute ,חֻקַּ֖ת עוֹלָֽם".

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The book of Job used the word redeemer and mediator before the New Testament was written.

The Christian Old Testament is not a valid source for a Torath Mosheh Jew. So, that being said Hashem commanded Torath Mosheh Jews to ignore and evade the type of information that comes out of Jesus/NT theology. As we discussed earlier, the Christian text and what is says is not valid to a Torath Mosheh Jew. Only the Hebrew Tanakh.

 

[Skywalker]

Keeping it very simple; what you're proposing contradicts Torah.

The Chrisitan approach to salvation contradicts the Torah that clearly and literally states that salvation comes from God not through a mediator. It's easiest seen in one verse Ezekiel 36:33. The linked article does not override this.

If you go by the defintion of the New Covenant from the Christian bible, Hebrews 8:13, then the New covenant contradicts Leviticus 16:29-31 which clearly and literally states that the process of atonement performed by the Levite priests is an "eternal statute ,חֻקַּ֖ת עוֹלָֽם".

I agree that salvation only comes from God but the New Testament says that God is a mediator. Ezekiel 36:33 doesn't contradict God being a mediator.

Leviticus doesn't mention an eternal statute.

29 “This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves and not do any work—whether native-born or a foreigner residing among you— 30 because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins. 31 It is a day of sabbath rest, and you must deny yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance.

Those behaviors were symbolic of the future Messiah, whose purpose was to provide eternal forgiveness. They were not meant for eternal forgiveness.

 

[Skywalker]

The Christian Old Testament is not a valid source for a Torath Mosheh Jew. So, that being said Hashem commanded Torath Mosheh Jews to ignore and evade the type of information that comes out of Jesus/NT theology. As we discussed earlier, the Christian text and what is says is not valid to a Torath Mosheh Jew. Only the Hebrew Tanakh.

The Torah and the Tanakh are in the Christian Old Testament. The New Testament is not idolatry or paganism or strange worship. The God of the New Testament is holy and just just like the God of the Old Testament.

 

[rosends]

The Bible uses the term pure and undefiled religion about Christianity in James 1:27 but religion is not a good term. Judaism is the only religion that is inspired by God. That doesn't mean that being Jewish and Christian is mutually exclusive. A lot of people believe that because of the teachings of the rabbis, but rabbinic beliefs aren't mentioned in the Tanakh.

Ice cream isn't mentioned in the Tanach but it exists. The authority of the rabbis IS mentioned, though, and the Tanach makes reference to laws not explained in the written texts. The two religions (or whatever you want to call them) are mutually exclusive.

 

[rosends]

The Torah and the Tanakh are in the Christian Old Testament. The New Testament is not idolatry or paganism or strange worship. The God of the New Testament is holy and just just like the God of the Old Testament.

The Christian biblical canon begins with translations (and reordering) of the texts which comprise the Jewish bible. It is then supplemented by other texts which are not part of Jewish understanding, nor are they considered a "New" anything to Jews.

 

[Skywalker]

Ice cream isn't mentioned in the Tanach but it exists. The authority of the rabbis IS mentioned, though, and the Tanach makes reference to laws not explained in the written texts. The two religions (or whatever you want to call them) are mutually exclusive.

Rabbis are like pastors and priests. They guide people but we are not supposed to believe everything they say. They are not a replacement for having a relationship with God-they are shepherds. Mistakes of the church like the Inquisition and anti Semetism were done by church leaders. Christianity and Judaism are not mutually exclusive because church leaders mistreated Jewish people. Christians also helped Jews during the Holocaust.

 

[dybmh]

I agree that salvation only comes from God but the New Testament says that God is a mediator

OK. This is easy. If what you're saying is true, then the mediator spoken about in the New Testament is not the Jewish God. It's an "other God". The only way for one God to be a mediator to the Supreme God is if the mediator God is an "other God". Nothing can mediate between itself.

Look at Psalms 95:3.

Note: The Jewish God is above all gods.

Ezekiel 36:33 doesn't contradict God being a mediator.

Sure it does. Take a look at the verse:

Notice that the same name of God is listed in both the verse from Psalms and the verse in Ezekiel. From these two verses it is shown that Jewish God is above all gods, and the Jewish God cleanses the iniquities. There cannot be a mediator between Hashem ( the four letter name ) and Hashem ( the four letter name ).

Leviticus doesn't mention an eternal statute.

It most certainly does. It says it twice.

As you can clearly see, The Torah literally says that the atonement brought by the Levite priests is a "statute forever", "eternal". That's what the words literally mean.

 

[Skywalker]

The Christian biblical canon begins with translations (and reordering) of the texts which comprise the Jewish bible. It is then supplemented by other texts which are not part of Jewish understanding, nor are they considered a "New" anything to Jews.

The New Testament didn't exist the time that the Jewish Bible did. That's why their texts are not part of Jewish understanding.

 

[rosends]

Rabbis are like pastors and priests. They guide people but we are not supposed to believe everything they say. They are not a replacement for having a relationship with God-they are shepherds. Mistakes of the church like the Inquisition and anti Semetism were done by church leaders. Christianity and Judaism are not mutually exclusive because church leaders mistreated Jewish people. Christians also helped Jews during the Holocaust.

Rabbis are trained to be authority figures and to interpret and establish understanding. It is never a question of believing everything they say, but recognizing that their explanation and application of text can establish normative practice and meaning.

 

[Skywalker]

OK. This is easy. If what you're saying is true, then the mediator spoken about in the New Testament is not the Jewish God. It's an "other God".

Look at Psalms 95:3.

View attachment 46390

Note: The Jewish God is above all gods.


Sure it does. Take a look at the verse:

View attachment 46391
Notice that th Jewish God is above all gods, and the Jewish God cleanses the iniquities. There cannot be a mediator between Hashem ( the four letter name ) and Hashem ( the four letter name ).

It most certainly does. It says it twice.

View attachment 46392
View attachment 46393

As you can clearly see, The Torah literally says that the atonement brought by the Levite priests is a "statue forever", "eternal". That's what the words literally mean.

Yahweh is Jesus.

There is a mediator within the trinity of God. Job mentioned that he longed for a mediator. Job Longed for a Mediator?

That verse was forever a statue for Old Testament priesthood ceremonies. But it doesn't provide eternal forgiveness. It was a type and shadow of the Messiah.

 

[dybmh]

Yahweh is Jesus.

Ignored: It's not in the Torah.

There is a mediator within the trinity of God. Job mentioned that he longed for a mediator. Job Longed for a Mediator?

Did you take a look at the verse: Job says "there is no mediator". Job 9:33.

That verse was forever a statue for Old Testament priesthood ceremonies. But it doesn't provide eternal forgiveness. It was a type and shadow of the Messiah.

You're changing the subject. The subject is the New Covenant. The New Covenant as described by the Christian bible contradicts Torah. As I showed you, the literal words of the Torah say that the temple service of atonement is an eternal statute. The New Covenant described in the Christian bible ends an eternal statute. That's a contradiction. You said:

Judaism is the Old Covenant and Christianity is the New Covenant. They exist separately but one doesn't exclude the other.

Sorry, you're wrong. The New Covenant excludes the Old Covenant. It removes an eternal statute.

 

[Skywalker]

Ignored: It's not in the Torah.


Did you take a look at the verse: Job says "there is no mediator". Job 9:33.

View attachment 46396


You're changing the subject. The subject is the New Covenant. The New Covenant as described by the Christian bible contradicts Torah. As I showed you, the literal words of the Torah say that the temple service of atonement is an eternal statute. The New Covenant described in the Christian bible ends an eternal statute. That's a contradiction. You said:



Sorry, you're wrong. The New Covenant excludes the Old Covenant. It removes an eternal statute.

Job knew that the Son of God was to be his mediator. Job 9 — The need for a mediator

There is no temple service of atonement today, so the verse about an eternal statute is not literal. The New Covenant doesn't annul the Old Covenant because there are Messianic Jews.

The Old Covenant expands and doesn't annul the Old Covenant.

 

[dybmh]

Job knew that the Son of God was to be his mediator. Job 9 — The need for a mediator

You're adding to the text. Show me the words "Son of God" in Job.

There is no temple service of atonement today, so the verse about an eternal statute is not literal.

The statute is eternal, we simply don't have a temple.

The New Covenant doesn't annul the Old Covenant because there are Messianic Jews.

The existance of Messianic Jews is irrelevant to whether or not the New Covenant annuls the Old Covenant.

The New Covenant expands and doesn't annul the Old Covenant.

Sure it does.

Deuteronomy 4:2. "... do not add or remove ... "

 

[Skywalker]

The Christian biblical canon begins with translations (and reordering) of the texts which comprise the Jewish bible. It is then supplemented by other texts which are not part of Jewish understanding, nor are they considered a "New" anything to Jews.

I agree more with the KJV but I don't think it's wrong if people use the NIV. They are different translations of the Bible.