Is a Flat Tax Fair?

[Prometheus85]

Then the poor can move up the ladder or change careers or open a business or save money, become debt free.

Theres many ways the poor can get to where the ritch are.

The answer is not to punish the ritch by giving more to the poor. If it wernt for the ritch, the poor would be even more poor because the ritch has created wealth through business and inovation. They gave jobs to the poor. You tax the ritch too much, they will leave the country or they will higher less workers or they will pay them less or they will give them no benefits.

Thats the results of your well intended socialist policie proposals.

The answer is tax everyone fair and flat. Stop envying the ritch and start working as hard as they do and youl get to where they are.

Let me give you a illustration. Skinny guy goes to a gym, sees big muscle men and says to himself "boy it be nice if i had that muscle. But, instead of doing what those muscle heads did to get there, the skinny guy says 'there all on steriods, so whats the use'.

Likewise, instead of tearing down the ritch by saying there greedy no good for nothings, who need to give me more. Say rather, the ritch gave me jobs, if government taxed them less, they then would have more money in ORDER TO PAY ME MORE!

No disrespect. But you’re arguing form ignorance. It’ seems you do not recognize wealth inequality as the massive problem in this country. As a result you blame poor people for being poor. Also saying making the rich pay their fair share of taxes is punishing them is nonsense.
One is that it fails to account for the power of luck. Almost by definition, people who are successful have benefited from some measure of good fortune. That fortune can take the form of obvious, material advantages--like access to advanced technology and good schools. Or it can take the form of more subtle, but still important, assets for moving forward in life-like good health or rich parents. Yes, a good work ethic will take you far. But I’ve met many people at the bottom of the income ladder who work just as hard, maybe even harder than a rich person for far less reward. Also this whole notion of if it weren’t for the rich the poor would be poorer because the rich creates jobs, so "Let people get as rich as they possibly can, they'll spend a little bit of their money and it will trickle down to the poor." Is bull jive. Because supply side economics y has virtually no support from professional economists. And only someone with knowledge on how taxes work as well as wealth distribution would say some bull line that.

 

[Prometheus85]

Scientifically illiterate and economically illiterate. What a great pairing.

I think @Jollybear suffers form a massive case of Fractal wrongness.

 

[Prometheus85]

That would be you, mr leftist

Looks like somebody watches to much Fox News

 

[Neutral Name]

Why is it fair for government to steal from you and give it to me?

When i could just go work.

Because greedy employers use people and don't pay a fair wage. They just want as much money as they can get. So, when it is tax time, it is appropriate for those used people to get something back.

 

[Bird123]

Conservatives are always pushing for a "flat tax." It sounds so simple: One easy rate, so we all pay the same, easy to calculate... Get rid of deductions and lower the tax rates. But is it really fair?

Flat tax is headed in the right direction but there is a much better way. National Sales Tax. There is no paperwork for most people. The poor pay less because they buy less. The rich pay more because they buy more. People who visit from other countries help with our tax burden. The government will work hard to keep the economy going just to make more money. I think everyone would get a big tax cut except for the rich who would not be able to avoid it.

Perhaps, the biggest problem will be getting it started. Rich politicians would surely fight this all the way.

 

[Prometheus85]

Assumes the worst of people?

You're kidding right?

It's not assuming the worst of someone.

It's expecting the better of someone.

This idea that people can't help themselves. Is a form of bigotry. Here: racism of low expectations - Wiktionary

You expect very little of anyone. By doing this you allow them to stay right where they are. You are oppressing them by coddling them. Basically it's chains used to keep someone down.

You should be lifting them up. Making them aim high. Not for you, for themselves! Encourage them to aim higher, and improve themselves.

Easier said than done. It’s seems to me, just like @Jollybear you don’t recognize wealth inequality as a massive problem

 

[Neutral Name]

I've been trying to say this too, but you express this point in a much easier to understand sort of way.

Thanks!

 

[Enoch07]

Easier said than done. It’s seems to me, just like @Jollybear you don’t recognize wealth inequality as a massive problem

I don't, but that's because I believe in merit based equal opportunity. Give everyone equal opportunity then each individual decides how much they want to put in to it based on how much reward they want.

Take me for example. I could earn $10,000 a year more just by adding 20 minutes to my drive each day and working for a different employer. But it requires more drive time for me, and the work environment is a bit harsh. I chose to not take the $10,000 upgrade, because I don't want the hassle of the extra drive or dealing with a more harsh work conditions.

I have no right to demand the same pay as someone willing to drive further and work in more harsh conditions than I.

If that was the case then why would anyone work at the more harsh place if it paid the same as a less harsh place?

Why be a air traffic controller (last time I checked the most stressful job on the planet) for $75k a year, when I can flip burgers for the same pay like you socialist types want.

 

[Prometheus85]

I don't, but that's because I believe in merit based equal opportunity. Give everyone equal opportunity then each individual decides how much they want to put in to it based on how much reward they want.

Take me for example. I could earn $10,000 a year more just by adding 20 minutes to my drive each day and working for a different employer. But it requires more drive time for me, and the work environment is a bit harsh. I chose to not take the $10,000 upgrade, because I don't want the hassle of the extra drive or dealing with a more harsh work conditions.

I have no right to demand the same pay as someone willing to drive further and work in more harsh conditions than I.

If that was the case then why would anyone work at the more harsh place if it paid the same as a less harsh place?

Why be a air traffic controller (last time I checked the most stressful job on the planet) for $75k a year, when I can flip burgers for the same pay like you socialist types want.

But wealth inequality is a massive problem. It’s well documented. And merit based equal opportunity you say? Ok. Does the farmer who slacks off and only works one day deserve to be treated equally with the farmer who works seven days a week, dusk until dawn? If he does, just ask Russia how that turned out. Does the doctor who spent years of hard work deserve no rewards for his efforts and talents? If not, how is society supposed to get people to be doctors? If he does deserve to be rewarded, then how are people being treated equally if one allows the people with the most merit to rise to the top and enjoy the fruit of one's labor? Isn't that just capitalism without any effort to prevent economic inequalities?

 

[Jollybear]

No disrespect. But you’re arguing form ignorance.

"No disrespect" but If im arguing from ignorance, why not then address my ACTUAL point and question? Then ill have "knowledge" mr educator.

It’ seems you do not recognize wealth inequality as the massive problem in this country.

No one is equal in almost anything in this world! Nor should they be. Some are stronger, some are weaker, some are faster, some are smarter, some are richer, some are not ritcher. The list goes on and on. No one should be equel, its due to inequality that we respect those strengths in others. There strength helps our weakness, our strength helps there weakness. It makes the world go round. The only thing that SHOULD be equal is LIBERTY!

Like i said already, if people dont like there inequality, there poor status in this case, they can work on changing it, just like they can change anything else in there life they dont like. Thats the point you refuse to address.

As a result you blame poor people for being poor.

And thats misrepresenting everything ive said and implied on this subject. No, i dont blame anyone for being poor! I blame those who complain about there poor status, while they do nothing of hard work to get out of it, while trying to get big bad government to rob the ritch to take care of them! Thats who i blame. I blame the lazy ones. I dont blame them for BEING poor, i blame them for REMAINING poor. You cant help it if you wer born in a poor family or poor country, but you can help how you DEAL with it and choose to get out of it. And many people have done just that! The poor should follow there example!

Also saying making the rich pay their fair share of taxes is punishing them is nonsense.

No its not nonsense, its perfectly rational to say it. You punish hard work by desentivizing it!

One is that it fails to account for the power of luck. Almost by definition, people who are successful have benefited from some measure of good fortune. That fortune can take the form of obvious, material advantages--like access to advanced technology and good schools. Or it can take the form of more subtle, but still important, assets for moving forward in life-like good health or rich parents.

Yea, luck can play a role in some cases, like born in a poor family, but not all cases. And it does not have to depend on luck because its not just hard work that matters, but it also depends on being smart. As the saying goes "work smarter, not harder". It also depends on serving and giving what your customers want as well. Thats not luck either.

Yes, a good work ethic will take you far.

Boy, it took 5 pages on this thread for you to finally acknowledge a good work ethic will take you FAR! Now, stick to that statement and youl be good.

But I’ve met many people at the bottom of the income ladder who work just as hard, maybe even harder than a rich person for far less reward.

Some people are CONTENT with a small pay and a simple life. And thats alright! But, if there complaining, they can MOVE UP that ladder or change carreers or open a business or save money and be debt free. They can do many things.

Also this whole notion of if it weren’t for the rich the poor would be poorer because the rich creates jobs, so "Let people get as rich as they possibly can, they'll spend a little bit of their money and it will trickle down to the poor." Is bull jive.

Listen man, if it wernt for the ritch, that job you go to in the airlines would not exist! Be grateful for entrepreneurs and the wealthy! Yes, its due to the ritch that the poor are not poorer. Its due to the ritch that the middle class is not poor at all. Its due to the ritch that THEY THEMSELVES are not poor or middle class. And yes, some ritch people pay there workers alot more then some other ritch people. So dont tell me its bull jive! Its simple logic, if the ritch are taxed less, this means they have more money. More money means a few things: 1, job growth or 2, pay raise, or 3, more benefits, or 4, bigger profit sharing checks. You also fail to forget that alot of ritch people give alot of funds to charities. And thats with the current tax system. Just imagine if government left them alone and made a flat tax? Boy, theyed be more generious!

Because supply side economics y has virtually no support from professional economists. And only someone with knowledge on how taxes work as well as wealth distribution would say some bull line that.

Oh dont give me that bull jive implication that all economists agree with you. You know thats not true.

Plus, votes dont dictate knowledge and truth! Learn that and hurry it up already!

 

[Jollybear]

Looks like somebody watches to much Fox News

I dont watch ENOUGH fox news! And to be factual, i hardly ever watch it!

These are MY thoughts!

 

[Enoch07]

Ok. Does the farmer who slacks off and only works one day deserve to be treated equally with the farmer who works seven days a week, dusk until dawn?

He deserves basic human rights and respect. But he doesn't deserve the same pay come harvest season because with his one day a week work ethic he will have less yield. Which equals less profit, which equals less money in his pocket. It's his own fault for having a crap work ethic.

If he does, just ask Russia how that turned out.

Russia is not a good example considering the millions that starved to death due the crackpot farming techniques developed by Russian scientist.

Does the doctor who spent years of hard work deserve no rewards for his efforts and talents?

Sure, but they get paid too much in the U.S. in my opinion. But that goes back to my wanting college education cost reduced etc.

If not, how is society supposed to get people to be doctors?

Well if someone is being a doctor just for the money they will probably be a p00p doctor. You can't urge or change someone to want to be a health care provider, its something they have to want to be, especially you want those that are good at it.

If he does deserve to be rewarded, then how are people being treated equally if one allows the people with the most merit to rise to the top and enjoy the fruit of one's labor?

If they are given equal opportunity then its totally on them. Not my problem after I have provided equal opportunity.

Isn't that just capitalism without any effort to prevent economic inequalities?

Pretty much, like I said before there are exceptions. Like disabled, vets, elderly people, and others with extenuating circumstances. I'm not a monster, not gonna force a disabled person to perform the same as an abled person. But forgive me for thinking someones skin color is not a handicap.

 

[Prometheus85]

"No disrespect" but If im arguing from ignorance, why not then address my ACTUAL point and question? Then ill have "knowledge" mr educator.



No one is equal in almost anything in this world! Nor should they be. Some are stronger, some are weaker, some are faster, some are smarter, some are richer, some are not ritcher. The list goes on and on. No one should be equel, its due to inequality that we respect those strengths in others. There strength helps our weakness, our strength helps there weakness. It makes the world go round. The only thing that SHOULD be equal is LIBERTY!

Like i said already, if people dont like there inequality, there poor status in this case, they can work on changing it, just like they can change anything else in there life they dont like. Thats the point you refuse to address.



And thats misrepresenting everything ive said and implied on this subject. No, i dont blame anyone for being poor! I blame those who complain about there poor status, while they do nothing of hard work to get out of it, while trying to get big bad government to rob the ritch to take care of them! Thats who i blame. I blame the lazy ones. I dont blame them for BEING poor, i blame them for REMAINING poor. You cant help it if you wer born in a poor family or poor country, but you can help how you DEAL with it and choose to get out of it. And many people have done just that! The poor should follow there example!



No its not nonsense, its perfectly rational to say it. You punish hard work by desentivizing it!



Yea, luck can play a role in some cases, like born in a poor family, but not all cases. And it does not have to depend on luck because its not just hard work that matters, but it also depends on being smart. As the saying goes "work smarter, not harder". It also depends on serving and giving what your customers want as well. Thats not luck either.



Boy, it took 5 pages on this thread for you to finally acknowledge a good work ethic will take you FAR! Now, stick to that statement and youl be good.



Some people are CONTENT with a small pay and a simple life. And thats alright! But, if there complaining, they can MOVE UP that ladder or change carreers or open a business or save money and be debt free. They can do many things.



Listen man, ! Be grateful for entrepreneurs and the wealthy! Yes, its due to the ritch that the poor are not poorer. Its due to the ritch that the middle class is not poor at all. Its due to the ritch that THEY THEMSELVES are not poor or middle class. And yes, some ritch people pay there workers alot more then some other ritch people. So dont tell me its bull jive! Its simple logic, if the ritch are taxed less, this means they have more money. More money means a few things: 1, job growth or 2, pay raise, or 3, more benefits, or 4, bigger profit sharing checks. You also fail to forget that alot of ritch people give alot of funds to charities. And thats with the current tax system. Just imagine if government left them alone and made a flat tax? Boy, theyed be more generious!



Oh dont give me that bull jive implication that all economists agree with you. You know thats not true.

Plus, votes dont dictate knowledge and truth! Learn that and hurry it up already!

Wow! I’m thinking someone is lacking normal perceptions of reality

1. You argue for flat tax and that everyone should pay the same amount in taxes because that’s fair and equal, while at the same time saying inequality is good.

2. You say if poor people don’t like their status they can change it. How? By working hard? There are millions of poor people the work hard everyday yourself including, had your status changed?

3 who do u know that complains about their poor status? I’m positive you worked around people that were less fortunate like u that worked their butts off everyday and never complained about the big bad government. But YOU complained about the big bad government 24/7 I know that for a fact! So is there any evidence to back up what your saying or are u just going off of your own personal feelings? Because facts don’t care about your feelings

4. You say you don’t blame people for being poor, you blame them for remaining poor. Do u know any people that choose to remain poor? If not, your just talking outta your a**

5. Desensitizing?

6. Being born into a poor family is luck?

7. How do you know some people are content and satisfied with a small pay and simple life? Are u speaking for others or are u projecting?

8. "If it weren’t for the rich I wouldn’t have that job at the airlines" apparently your ignorant on the history of American Airlines smh also if my memory serves me right it was a middle age black man that hired and he was far from rich.

9. I never said all economist agree with me lol i said, Supply-side economics as a theory has virtually no support from professional economists. why did u twist my words?

 

[Jollybear]

Because greedy employers use people and don't pay a fair wage.

Greedy employers? Wait a minute, why is it wrong for a business owner who worked hard, had lots of headaches along the way and setbacks, overcame them and grew and finally started making big profits, why is it wrong for him to enjoy the fruit of all his EARNED work he deserves?

And a fair wage? Many employers pay way above the minimum wage. You also fail to realize that as a business owner, they have greater bills to pay then the regular worker does. Whats wrong with them getting to keep big profits for all this work?

They just want as much money as they can get.

And whats wrong with them wanting alot of money? They work hard for it.

So, when it is tax time, it is appropriate for those used people to get something back.

If there used, then the business owner is equally used for them getting money.

The reality is, both the worker and employer both benefit from there contract. The employer gets help with his business and the employee gets money to live.

Whats so bad about that deal?

 

[Neutral Name]

Greedy employers? Wait a minute, why is it wrong for a business owner who worked hard, had lots of headaches along the way and setbacks, overcame them and grew and finally started making big profits, why is it wrong for him to enjoy the fruit of all his EARNED work he deserves?

And a fair wage? Many employers pay way above the minimum wage. You also fail to realize that as a business owner, they have greater bills to pay then the regular worker does. Whats wrong with them getting to keep big profits for all this work?



And whats wrong with them wanting alot of money? They work hard for it.



If there used, then the business owner is equally used for them getting money.

The reality is, both the worker and employer both benefit from there contract. The employer gets help with his business and the employee gets money to live.

Whats so bad about that deal?

Why is it wrong for a worker who has worked hard, had lots of headaches along the way and setbacks but kept trying to help his/her boss make money to ask that they receive a fair amount of money for their hard work?

 

[Jollybear]

Wow! I’m thinking someone is lacking normal perceptions of reality

1. You argue for flat tax and that everyone should pay the same amount in taxes because that’s fair and equal, while at the same time saying inequality is good.

Your not paying attention to my words. Im talking about equal opertunity. As in equal liberty. But im not talking about equal status in origins. Woman and men both have inequality in physical strength, but is that a bad thing? Not really. I may where t shirt and you may where a long sleeve, are those equal in warmth? No, but should they? Not really. In the case of opertunity, its different, the poor who are not ritch, they have the same equal opertunity to get ritch like the ritch did. Opertunity is liberty! Liberty isnt free handouts, its freedom of action. Your actions can either be lazy or stupid or they can be hard working and smart. If there lazy and stupid, then you deserve to STAY poor.

2. You say if poor people don’t like their status they can change it. How? By working hard? There are millions of poor people the work hard everyday yourself including, had your status changed?

Yes, my status did change. I chose a career change and that changed my status. I may not be ritch, but i have gone from poor to now middle class. Im still working on the ritch part and so far my intelligent stradegy is working, slowly but surely. Getting ritch doesent happen overnight. If you are smart and work hard and make the right choices, yes you CAN change your status!

3 who do u know that complains about their poor status? I’m positive you worked around people that were less fortunate like u that worked their butts off everyday and never complained about the big bad government. But YOU complained about the big bad government 24/7 I know that for a fact! So is there any evidence to back up what your saying or are u just going off of your own personal feelings? Because facts don’t care about your feelings

I dont complain about the ritch business man and him giving me a job. I complain about the government not making a flat tax. Thats the difference, PAY ATTENTION and QUIT the straw arguments!

4. You say you don’t blame people for being poor, you blame them for remaining poor. Do u know any people that choose to remain poor? If not, your just talking outta your a**

They may not delebaretely say "i wanna be poor" but by remaining lazy and stupid and not making different choices and make changes in there life, then YES, THEY ARE INDIRECTLY CHOOSING TO REMAIN POOR!

5. Desensitizing?

A none incentive. An incentive means a thing that motivates or encourages one to do something. A none incentive means a thing that motivates or encourages one to not do something.

6. Being born into a poor family is luck?

Come on man, clue in, do i really have to answer that? Luck as in chance. Unlucky, hows that? Why do i put myself through this needless abuse?

7. How do you know some people are content and satisfied with a small pay and simple life? Are u speaking for others or are u projecting?

I am speaking for SOME others, not all people. In fact, i USE to be content. Then that stopped, so i made a change.

8. "If it weren’t for the rich I wouldn’t have that job at the airlines" apparently your ignorant on the history of American Airlines smh also if my memory serves me right it was a middle age black man that hired and he was far from rich.

Are you really going to argue that!?? If someone did not innovate and make a airline business, you would not have a job there. Come on! My god, the level of foolishness from people is appalling.

9. I never said all economist agree with me lol i said, Supply-side economics as a theory has virtually no support from professional economists. why did u twist my words?

So no profesional economists disagree with a flat tax? Umm, yea, you said it. All profesional economists agree with you.

Ok........then, got proof of that ALL "profesional economists" agree with you?

Dont dare give me an article written by one economist arguing against a flat tax either. I want a article proving all profesional economists agree with you.

But again, truth is not done by vote, for the thousanth time now. But, you value an idea, not truth.

 

[Jollybear]

Why is it wrong for a worker who has worked hard, had lots of headaches along the way and setbacks but kept trying to help his/her boss make money to ask that they receive a fair amount of money for their hard work?

For the record, you did not answer my question, i still would like it answered.

But, ill answer yours. Its not wrong for the employee to ask his employer for a fair wage. Its wrong for the employee to ask the government to force his employer to pay him a fair wage.

 

[Prometheus85]

Your not paying attention to my words. Im talking about equal opertunity. As in equal liberty. But im not talking about equal status in origins. Woman and men both have inequality in physical strength, but is that a bad thing? Not really. I may where t shirt and you may where a long sleeve, are those equal in warmth? No, but should they? Not really. In the case of opertunity, its different, the poor who are not ritch, they have the same equal opertunity to get ritch like the ritch did. Opertunity is liberty! Liberty isnt free handouts, its freedom of action. Your actions can either be lazy or stupid or they can be hard working and smart. If there lazy and stupid, then you deserve to STAY poor.



Yes, my status did change. I chose a career change and that changed my status. I may not be ritch, but i have gone from poor to now middle class. Im still working on the ritch part and so far my intelligent stradegy is working, slowly but surely. Getting ritch doesent happen overnight. If you are smart and work hard and make the right choices, yes you CAN change your status!



I dont complain about the ritch business man and him giving me a job. I complain about the government not making a flat tax. Thats the difference, PAY ATTENTION and QUIT the straw arguments!



They may not delebaretely say "i wanna be poor" but by remaining lazy and stupid and not making different choices and make changes in there life, then YES, THEY ARE INDIRECTLY CHOOSING TO REMAIN POOR!



A none incentive. An incentive means a thing that motivates or encourages one to do something. A none incentive means a thing that motivates or encourages one to not do something.



Come on man, clue in, do i really have to answer that? Luck as in chance. Unlucky, hows that? Why do i put myself through this needless abuse?



I am speaking for SOME others, not all people. In fact, i USE to be content. Then that stopped, so i made a change.



Are you really going to argue that!?? If someone did not innovate and make a airline business, you would not have a job there. Come on! My god, the level of foolishness from people is appalling.



So no profesional economists disagree with a flat tax? Umm, yea, you said it. All profesional economists agree with you.

Ok........then, got proof of that ALL "profesional economists" agree with you?

Dont dare give me an article written by one economist arguing against a flat tax either. I want a article proving all profesional economists agree with you.

But again, truth is not done by vote, for the thousanth time now. But, you value an idea, not truth.

Equal opportunity? 1st off You stole that form Enoch. Also you said inequality is good and no one should be equal. Now your talking about equal liberty??? You say your not talking about status but yet you put emphasis on poor peoples status. Your contradicting yourself

 

[Neutral Name]

For the record, you did not answer my question, i still would like it answered.

But, ill answer yours. Its not wrong for the employee to ask his employer for a fair wage. Its wrong for the employee to ask the government to force his employer to pay him a fair wage.

First, what was the question I did not answer? Second, getting back to greedy bosses. How many will pay their employees appropriately if not forced by the government? No too many, I'm sure.

 

[Prometheus85]

@Jollybear I wanna know how you came to the conclusion that by me saying Supply-side economics as a theory has virtually no support from professional economists is me saying all economist agree with me. And you want a article saying all economist agree me. Because that’s not rational thinking. In any case here’s a evidence to back up my claim.

The GOP's Original Sin

Also I notice how you NEVER provide evidence to back up any of your claims, but you always demand others to provide evidence and answer your questions. And even when do manage to provide some kind source, its easily debunked and proving to be misleading. And instead of correcting your mistakes and being accountable you double down on your wrongness and accuse others of not being accountable. It’s pretty clear that you don’t wanna have a honest debate with people on this forum.