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Is a Communist Utopia possible?

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Oh, and a libertarian utopia is equally impossible. Absolute economic freedom is only sustainable as long there are no excessive behaviors such as dishonesty, theft, violence or corruption in pursuit of self-interest to the harm of someone else's "freedom."
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
A guy I met from Croatia said complete central planning of the economy cannot work, and has not worked. A committee of bureaucrats is going to be very inefficient at figuring out the optimum number of shoes that should be produced each year. Competition and market forces are best suited to figure out such details.

My guess is a free market modulated by some degree of central planning is the best system.

I don't really endorse communism, capitalism, or a mix between the two. I guess I'm more of a libertarian socialist at heart with heavy leanings toward libertarian municipalism and an eventual end to money itself.

I don't believe any utopia is possible in practice. For one thing, its a horribly anthropocentric view of things. Why should it all be about us?

I do think that a centrally planned communist state of sorts is possible, however, albeit under the condition that it's organized by a system of highly advanced super computers and artificial intelligences...but who wants to live under synthetic rule?
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Most civilizations in South America were analogous to communits before European invasion.

Rightful communism should be posible. But yeah, probably with less people.

It was Gandhi I believe that said that Earth had enough resources to feed everyone, but not enough for everyone to have a BMW.
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
Matthew78,

I sympathize with the idea, but it's hard for me to imagine an anarcho-communist economy working out in practice. Are there current or historical examples of this system in practice?

I don't know about anarcho-communism as argued for by Peter Kropotkin but I do know of some examples of libertarian socialist economic systems on a small scale that have been put into practice. One type of libertarian socialist economy is "participatory economics". This was formulated by Robin Hahnel and Michael Albert. Albert cofounded South End Press, which is based upon participatory economics. Hahnel lists examples in his book Economic Justice and Democracy. I would strongly encourage you to read this book to get a good idea of what participatory economics is as well as examples of how people have been trying to implement it.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
doppelgänger;2678145 said:
Oh, and a libertarian utopia is equally impossible. Absolute economic freedom is only sustainable as long there are no excessive behaviors such as dishonesty, theft, violence or corruption in pursuit of self-interest to the harm of someone else's "freedom."


There could still be a police force and army to keep order.
 
Greetings,

Perhaps the key word here is, "Utopia." The politico-economic structure is secondary to the species evolved sufficiently to attain the state of existence in an utopian society.

best,
swampy
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
A utopia by definition does not exist. It's an idealized projection. Also we have to define what communism represents. The vision Marx had is not the same thing as the Soviet Union. In fact Marx was pretty vague, and there's a lot of "tinkering" with the communist idea from other philosophers (both before and after him).

At the minimum, I would say communism is defined by two traits: 1.) democratic ownership of the means of production (democratic does not imply state-owned, however) and 2.) lack of money.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
communism... that is state capitalism... doesn't work.

The closest you could get to the ideal would be worker owned business... where the employees are the shareholders and have a significant impact on how the business is run and how the profits are distributed.

Humans are evolutionarily suited best to working in groups of a couple hundred individuals... Dunbar's number. Any group (business, schools, community groups, governmental body) IMHO should be limited to these numbers (or into subsections of these numbers) to produce the best results with the least amount of corruption.

wa:do
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
How does the government get the money to pay for the police and army?

The Government will own all the businesses.

Forget all this Libertarian nonsense - obviously unworkable!

There needs to be some realistic system - it is clear that people are greedy, selfish and corrupt so some kind of order is necessary.

I propose a system based on the general Soviet model but altered in such a way as to deal with the general needs of the market (for example by using consumer/producer councils as mentioned by Mathew78).
 
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gnosticx

Member
no...communist countries were financed by west and are a death to the people who live in them.. ive got relos who lived under both nazi and communist russian rule....same difference... yes our current system is controlled by the same families ( they make money under this system to finance opposition) but we are allowed the benefit (under ever increasing pressure as the value of ur dollar is eroded)b to at least work and survive or prosper in some deluded sense.
 

Crystallas

Active Member
doppelgänger;2678145 said:
Oh, and a libertarian utopia is equally impossible. Absolute economic freedom is only sustainable as long there are no excessive behaviors such as dishonesty, theft, violence or corruption in pursuit of self-interest to the harm of someone else's "freedom."

You mean "Anarchist utopia", because a Libertarian utopia does not exist, although individuals apply their own utopian ideas to their beliefs, but this is not to be confused with the entire ideology of libertarianism.
 

Crystallas

Active Member
I know this is an ironic image to share on a religious forum, but this quote sums up my opinion.


G8gZ8.jpg
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
It all depends on what you mean by "communism." The word's been so stretched and manipulated, it can literally mean anything from radical anarchism to jackbooted totalitarianism.

In the original formulation of communism devised by Karl Marx, it was predicted that the State would become unnecessary and wither away. I do not think that this is either possible or desirable, at least not without human psychology evolving significantly (right now we're still roughly at where we were psychologically when we were throwing sticks at mammoths). The vast majority of, if not all, humans need to be controlled.

Every form of government in existence is a form of tyranny. Monarchy/dictatorship, obviously, is tyranny - one man rules by virtue of birth/power over others. Aristocracy/oligarchy is tyranny - one group (usually a smaller, more organized one) rules over another by virtue of birth/power over other groups.
And few realize it, but democracy is also tyranny; what is democracy if not rule of the masses over the few? Some would argue that a constitution prevents democracy from becoming a tyranny of the majority - but how is this constitution written? Is it not created by one group of people (ie, the Founding Fathers) telling people what rights they have? How is this different from a dictator or ruling class granting their subjects certain rights out of goodwill? Why is it tyranny for a man to tell another what to do or believe, but not for a piece of paper (written by a man) to do so? More importantly, how is a piece of paper going to guarantee your freedom? It is no difficult matter for a government to violate a constitution or treaty - it simply needs to overpower by force their opposition, aka, tyranny. Ironically, this is made easier by apathy, which sprouts up when people feel that they are immune to politics - that is, they do not fear the growth of tyranny, because they do not believe they exist in a world of tyranny. Growing up in a system that institutionalizes rebellion in the form of elections and makes it menial, they feel like they have a form of control, and in this way, they more readily accept tyranny dictated by this method - who is more likely to rebel against his system, the man living in a democracy, or the man being oppressed by a dictator? In trying to create a system immune from tyranny, we have given tyranny its greatest mechanism ever.
Further, how is it any more rational for a large number of people to create policy than it is for a small number of people or one person to create policy? Is truth determined by popular support?

Therefore, since every form of government is in some way tyranny, and freedoms only exist because the tyrant(s) grant them to us, we should strive not to be free but to be efficient.
Hence, the State must never "wither away," as Marx described.

no...communist countries were financed by west and are a death to the people who live in them.. ive got relos who lived under both nazi and communist russian rule....same difference... yes our current system is controlled by the same families ( they make money under this system to finance opposition) but we are allowed the benefit (under ever increasing pressure as the value of ur dollar is eroded)b to at least work and survive or prosper in some deluded sense.

Communist countries weren't financed by the West... the West and the communist countries hated each other. Communist countries were generally financed by the Soviet Union. (It should be noted that the US actually tried to send money to communist countries, including the Soviet Union, after WW2, but the Soviets didn't like the idea and instead organized the Warsaw Pact to give money to nations under its influence).
 

Jistheman

Member
Is a communist utopia possible. The answer is simple. NO

Given the nature of mankind is it really possible to have a viable communist state where everyone gets a reasonable standard of living?

Most anti-communists quickly point to the collapse of the Soviet Union as proof that this system cannot work as it goes against human nature. That is hardly a credible argument though.

Under the right circumstances could it work and what would be the major problems?
 

Jistheman

Member
Communists are so confused. Even china is going to over to capitalism. Russia already has.


Sadly i can display the poster .
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
Is a Capitalist Utopia possible?

No, because the forces that drive capitalism are the same forces that tear it apart. Also, most modern proponents of capitalism don't promise utopia.

Specifically, capitalism fundamentally revolves around the free market. The free market is a great system until it isn't. The problem is that as people grow wealthier (and usually this is a small number of people that wealth is being concentrated into), they have an incentive to make the market unfree. Whether it's by buying out or cooperating with all the competitors or by using the government as a tool to slant the market in their favor (or simply becoming so large that a lazy and/or uninformed consumer base doesn't bother to look for alternatives), capitalists will eventually corrupt their own system. That's why it constantly needs State intervention to stay alive.

(This isn't even factoring in the problems inherent in the free market, such as externalities.)
 
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