Instinct?

[Mister Emu]

I was just thinking of something...

What exactly is instinct? Is it something genetic? Like turtles who instinctively go back to the same beach to have offspring... and salmon who instinctively go upstream in a river...

and

Are there any theories as to how it evolved?

 

[painted wolf]

with turtles and salmon, the instinct is more of a memory of a 'safe place'. Salmon find thier way by smell... they return to the place that smells like growing up.

If you put the salmon fry in two differnt streams they will go to the one that they grew up in because it smells "like home".

Turtles likely operate in the same way, going someplace they know is a good place to grow up because that is where they did it.

when you think about it, humans opperate under the same "instinct" we generally want to recreate the positive aspects of our own childhood for our kids.

Evolutionarily this makes sence, you want to have offspring in a safe environment and where better than where you successfully made it to adulthood. In many ways returning to that place is a big evolutionary advantage as you don't have to take a lot of time to hunt for a new location. You just follow your nose and your memories.

wa:do

 

[michel]

with turtles and salmon, the instinct is more of a memory of a 'safe place'. Salmon find thier way by smell... they return to the place that smells like growing up.

If you put the salmon fry in two differnt streams they will go to the one that they grew up in because it smells "like home".

Turtles likely operate in the same way, going someplace they know is a good place to grow up because that is where they did it.

when you think about it, humans opperate under the same "instinct" we generally want to recreate the positive aspects of our own childhood for our kids.

Evolutionarily this makes sence, you want to have offspring in a safe environment and where better than where you successfully made it to adulthood. In many ways returning to that place is a big evolutionary advantage as you don't have to take a lot of time to hunt for a new location. You just follow your nose and your memories.

wa:do

Fascinating! I take it that has to be a genetic trait ?

 

[Mister Emu]

I have some more questions Painted Wolf, if you don't mind?

Would a lab raised salmon attempt to find its way back to the lab if possible to procreate?

If the smell of the river changed fundamentally would they still attempt the return?

If the place of birth were to be equated with pain would a salmon still return?

If two artificially simulated rivers were created, with two seperate salmon groups... and you switched the water sources for both, which would they return to?

 

[Halcyon]

I have some more questions Painted Wolf, if you don't mind?

Would a lab raised salmon attempt to find its way back to the lab if possible to procreate?

If the smell of the river changed fundamentally would they still attempt the return?

If the place of birth were to be equated with pain would a salmon still return?

If two artificially simulated rivers were created, with two seperate salmon groups... and you switched the water sources for both, which would they return to?

That's what scientific experimentation is all about. There's probably several research groups doing just those experiments that you suggest.

 

[Mister Emu]

That's what scientific experimentation is all about. There's probably several research groups doing just those experiments that you suggest.

I know...

I was hoping there were research groups that had already done the experiments I suggested

 

[Halcyon]

I know...

I was hoping there were research groups that had already done the experiments I suggested

Do a google search, could take a while to find anything.

Also scientific findings tend to be published in the scientific journals like Nature etc, years before they appear in books. So, to see them you'd need to be in university or subscribed to such a journal.

 

[Mister Emu]

Do a google search, could take a while to find anything.

I would, but I am at school right now, and not really even suppsoed to be on the forums... I sneak on when the teacher isn't looking... to do such a search I would have to be at my hosue

also I was hoping, probably against betetr judgement, that Painted Wolf would have knowledge of any such experiments

 

[Halcyon]

I would, but I am at school right now, and not really even suppsoed to be on the forums... I sneak on when the teacher isn't looking... to do such a search I would have to be at my hosue

also I was hoping, probably against betetr judgement, that Painted Wolf would have knowledge of any such experiments

It's possible she will. But they are very specific questions.

 

[Quiddity]

Emu, I had a small skirmish about this very topic a few moons ago: Post# 24

Human beings possess NO instincts. An instinct is defined by 5 things:

1. Must be brought on by a stimulus that only has to occur once
2. Consistant throughout the entire species
3. Complex in nature
4. Must occur in the same sequence always
5. Completely innate, UNLEARNED

This is what I remember from college and the professor made it clear that some McDougal fellow was one of the last to say humans have instincts. The new text books in school does not allow humans to have instincts. There is much research one can do on this.

~Victor

 

[d.]

Human beings possess NO instincts. An instinct is defined by 5 things:

1. Must be brought on by a stimulus that only has to occur once
2. Consistant throughout the entire species
3. Complex in nature
4. Must occur in the same sequence always
5. Completely innate, UNLEARNED

This is what I remember from college and the professor made it clear that some McDougal fellow was one of the last to say humans have instincts. The new text books in school does not allow humans to have instincts. There is much research one can do on this.

~Victor

victor, or somebody else knowledgeable,

according to these definitions, what 'instincts' can be identified among animals? if humans have no instincts, what animal have? and what would they be?

 

[Quiddity]

victor, or somebody else knowledgeable,

according to these definitions, what 'instincts' can be identified among animals? if humans have no instincts, what animal have? and what would they be?

It would depend on the animal. Inherited patterns of responses or reactions that fall into the 5 I noted above are various. Some examples are fighting, animal courtship behavior, internal escape functions, etc. It is my opinion that animals are bound to behaivor like this. Humans are not. That help?

 

[d.]

That help?

yes, thank you.

although i'm not sure if i can agree that for instance fighting or courtship is completely unlearned behaviour in animals, but learned behaviour in humans? or do i misunderstand?

 

[Halcyon]

Human beings possess NO instincts. An instinct is defined by 5 things:

1. Must be brought on by a stimulus that only has to occur once
2. Consistant throughout the entire species
3. Complex in nature
4. Must occur in the same sequence always
5. Completely innate, UNLEARNED

This is what I remember from college and the professor made it clear that some McDougal fellow was one of the last to say humans have instincts. The new text books in school does not allow humans to have instincts. There is much research one can do on this.

~Victor

I disagree, i think there are several instincts that humans possess. The problem lies in the brain development if the human. The human brain continues to develop and grow long after the child is born. Most other animals aren't like this, they are born with well developed brains.
Thus any basic instincts a baby may show are masked by years of extra learning, while its brain develops to such an extent that it can express those instincts.

The instincts i've thought of are;
1. People, even small children are naturally repulsed by the smell of decay, and related smells like feces. This is to stop them eating or playing with diseased objects.

2. Babies instinctivly cry when in distress, this attracts attention to them so problems like hunger, thirst or dirty diapers can be resolved.

3. All people, including children, will naturally cower away from an aggressive figure, this submissive behaviour would hopefully prevent an attack. Most higher animals have this same instinct, unless they believe they can overpower the aggressor.

4. When suddenly frightened, people will normally make some sort of vocalisation, either a scream or a shout. Interestingly this is not seen in most animals as such behaviour alerts predators to their location. Because humans are a social species this response rallies nearby humans to their aid.

Plus the obvious ones like the instinct to reproduce etc etc

 

[Quiddity]

I disagree, i think there are several instincts that humans possess. The problem lies in the brain development if the human. The human brain continues to develop and grow long after the child is born. Most other animals aren't like this, they are born with well developed brains.
Thus any basic instincts a baby may show are masked by years of extra learning, while its brain develops to such an extent that it can express those instincts.

The instincts i've thought of are;
1. People, even small children are naturally repulsed by the smell of decay, and related smells like feces. This is to stop them eating or playing with diseased objects.

2. Babies instinctivly cry when in distress, this attracts attention to them so problems like hunger, thirst or dirty diapers can be resolved.

3. All people, including children, will naturally cower away from an aggressive figure, this submissive behaviour would hopefully prevent an attack. Most higher animals have this same instinct, unless they believe they can overpower the aggressor.

4. When suddenly frightened, people will normally make some sort of vocalisation, either a scream or a shout. Interestingly this is not seen in most animals as such behaviour alerts predators to their location. Because humans are a social species this response rallies nearby humans to their aid.

Plus the obvious ones like the instinct to reproduce etc etc

All can be unlearned and we are not bound by any of these. Instincts is something you have NO CONTROL over and can't ever control it. I can:
1. Stop eating
2. Stop crying
3. Eat in front of a pile of poo
Pretty much everything.

 

[Quiddity]

yes, thank you.

although i'm not sure if i can agree that for instance fighting or courtship is completely unlearned behaviour in animals, but learned behaviour in humans? or do i misunderstand?

An animal can't unlearn an instinct. Any perception of an instinct humans have (suckling, disgust, etc.) can be unlearned.

 

[Halcyon]

An animal can't unlearn an instinct. Any perception of an instinct humans have (suckling, disgust, etc.) can be unlearned.

That's because humans are sentient. We can train ourselves to ignore or go against our instincts, but this isn't the same as unlearning.

Like, you could probably train yourself to eat a 3 month old rabbit corpse, but it'll take a long time and much vomiting before you're successful.

Lions can be trained to overcome their instinctual fear of fire, so that they can then jump through burning hoops at the circus. So, this rewiring of the brain can be done in higher animals, it just takes training, humans can self train - that's the only difference.

Also, i very much doubt you could train a baby to not cry. And no matter how hard you try, you'll always be startled and give some form of response. And the instinct to eat or drink doesn't disappear, its only willpower that stops you doing it.

 

[painted wolf]

actually animals can unlearn instincts.
we teach cats and dogs to deficate in places and times of our choosing.
we teach them to eat at times of our choosing and can teach them not to eat 'off limits' food.
we teach them to accept both preditors and prey as companions and to subdue thier instincts to flee/kill.
be silent when they have the instinct to be loud.

and so on.

as for the salmon, salmon fry are always released for wild programs at very young ages. Adults and older fry are not, they will not survive to return, if they know to return at all.
as for mixing up thier water supplies, I'm not 100% certen on this one, but I do know that exparaments have been done to determine how salmon find thier way back and it was determined that it was the "smell" of the water that they followed. Chemical composition and other factors that they can detect.

wa:do

 

[Quiddity]

That's because humans are sentient. We can train ourselves to ignore or go against our instincts, but this isn't the same as unlearning.

Like, you could probably train yourself to eat a 3 month old rabbit corpse, but it'll take a long time and much vomiting before you're successful.

How is this not unlearning?

Lions can be trained to overcome their instinctual fear of fire, so that they can then jump through burning hoops at the circus. So, this rewiring of the brain can be done in higher animals, it just takes training, humans can self train - that's the only difference.

That is a good point. Although there are some that will never be rewired in animals. I have never heard of training animals to stop eating for example.

Also, i very much doubt you could train a baby to not cry. And no matter how hard you try, you'll always be startled and give some form of response. And the instinct to eat or drink doesn't disappear, its only willpower that stops you doing it.

I'm looking at this in a broader perspective Halycon. Babies will grow and unlearn it. You can cut a persons life into sections and perceive an instinct. Fast foward it and it can be gone.

 

[Halcyon]

How is this not unlearning?

Because things like being disgusted, wanting to eat, drink and reproduce were never learnt, they are in built drives - instincts. You cannot unlean them, only deny yourself the fullfillment of these urges.

I'm looking at this in a broader perspective Halycon. Babies will grow and unlearn it. You can cut a persons life into sections and perceive an instinct. Fast foward it and it can be gone.

No, they don't unlearn it because they were born with the instinct to cry when in distress.
Instincts do change with age in many animals, not just humans, some instincts eg. suckling, disappear with hormonal and physiological changes.