Infallible prophet?

[gnostic]

It depends on who you ask. Amongst Orthodox Jews, the answer will likely be that prophets are infallible in their prophetic messages, but that they are fallible in their own personal affairs and judgment, when not conveying messages from God.

Amongst non-Orthodox Jews, some might give the Orthodox answer, but many others would probably say that prophets, being human and of incomplete understanding, can also make mistakes in their conveyance of prophecy.

I wasn't thinking along the lines of conveyance of prophesies.
I don't know why, I guess it never crossed my mind.
I was thinking gnostic was referring to basic human failings.

Why, yes.

It is not simply about just prophecy, but about the person, and the way he (or she) live his (or her) life that is portrayed in the biblical narrative.

If a prophet is infallible or not, then I want to know why they think this way.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And yet David not only committed a sin of adultery with Bathsheba, but conspired to have her husband killed in battle so that he could marry her. That's not the sign of perfection nor of infallibility.

With regards to David laying with Bathsheba which is mentioned in 2 Samuel, it seems that this was prior to when he was raised to prophethood.


"Universally, the Prophets are of two kinds. One are the independent Prophets Who are followed; the other kind are not independent and are themselves followers.
The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle.
The Manifestations of universal Prophethood Who appeared independently are, for example, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muḥammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh.
But the others who are followers and promoters are like Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Of themselves they have no power and might, except what they receive from the independent Prophets." Abdul'baha - Some answered questions


So, I think only the independent prophets are infallible from beginning. But the other prophets who are only followers, at some point become infallible. In another words, they acquire the infallibility by following the independent prophets perfectly at some point. And infallibility is relative. That is for their own time and among people at their time, they are relatively perfect.

 

[Katzpur]

There are a number of different meanings for the word "perfect." The two which seem to apply best to this discussion are:

1. Complete, thorough.
2. Without flaw.​

God sends the prophets as the educator of mankind. The prophets teach not only by words, but also by their actions. How would God raise a prophet to teach and educate mankind, if this educator himself is not perfect and makes mistakes and says wrong things?

I know that I have been educated on many occasions by less than perfect individuals.

That's why, for example, according to Bible, Noah and Job were "perfect".

I believe that Noah and Job were "perfect" by the first definition but not by the second. As a Christian, I believe that only Jesus Christ was "perfect" by the second definition.

If they repented and God didn't fulfill His promise to doom, then this was a Test for those people to accept and submit to the decision of God. God didn’t need to mention before it was conditional. People needed to accept God's decision, so, they may pass the test. The purpose of God was to test and prove people.

I agree, but I don't believe that a person must be perfect by the second definition in order to teach others.

 

[gnostic]

With regards to David laying with Bathsheba which is mentioned in 2 Samuel, it seems that this was prior to when he was raised to prophethood.

And you know this how?

Because nothing in 2 Samuel that he became a prophet later. So I would like to know where you getting this information from. Provide sources that he was a prophet later in life.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And you know this how?

Because nothing in 2 Samuel that he became a prophet later. So I would like to know where you getting this information from. Provide sources that he was a prophet later in life.

I don't think the Bible explicitly says when he became a prophet. But from the Bible, the indication that I am thinking of, is when David wrote the Psalms.

Also, in 1 Samuel 16:13, "...and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward." I think is an indication of prophethood.

 

[gnostic]

I don't think the Bible explicitly says when he became a prophet. But from the Bible, the indication that I am thinking of, is when David wrote the Psalms.

You do realise the Psalms were not written around the same time in David's life. You have to remember also that prior to becoming king, he was Saul's singer and harper (as well as champion and son-in-law to Saul), so some of may have been written when he was still a young man. And some of Pslams were later in life. And not all of Pslams were even written by David.

Also if 1 Samuel 16 is the time when David became prophet, then long before he David was ever king and before he ever met Bathsheba, and just before he met King Saul and fought Goliath.

If you read 2 King 2:1, you will see communication between David and the Lord (God).

In the course of time, David inquired of the LORD. "Shall I go up to one of the towns of Judah?" he asked. The LORD said, "Go up."
David asked, "Where shall I go?"
"To Hebron," the LORD answered.

That indicate he could speak to God (prophet), before he met ever Bathsheba. So if David was prophet, then he had err with the Bathsheba episode, and that would indicate prophets were not infallible as you think.

 

[Hawkins]

Does being a prophet, make that person infallible?

That's seemed to be the case with what Islam teaches.

What do the Christians and Jews think?

Do you think prophet can't make mistake? Or are they just as human as the rest of us?

They made mistakes as the rest of humans. However, God ensures that His own messages are infallible.

 

[Gaura Priya]

I must ask you, InvestigateTruth this. Are you not verse enough on the bible that you don't know the stories?

You don't need to remember all the details but the general framework of the biblical stories. I don't. And though I remember the Genesis best, I couldn't give you by heart, chapters and verses of everything that happen or said.

I will not quote, but I will provide sources, which you can you read yourself. I am not going to copy whole chapters, but the following chapters are short enough for you read in your own time.

1. 2 Samuel 11 about David and Bathsheba. The prophet Nathan confronted David on behalf of God in 2 Samuel 12.
2. About Solomon, read 1 Kings 11.

From memory, Esau was a mighty hunter and Isaac loved him the best. God didn't because Esau's wives were foreign and pagans. Jacob was more of shepherd, and at that time, unmarried. Rebecca proved to be more wiser than Isaac, with regards to their sons. Read Genesis 27 and 28.

Since Prophets of God cannot be corrupt, according to both Islam and the Baha'i Faith, they have traditionally seen both the Gospel and the Tanakh as corrupted and tampered from the antiquities of time.

The stories of the Manifestations of God in both the Qur'an and the Baha'i Scriptures have painted a different view of Them... so in order to understand or take into account the Baha'i and Islamic idea of the absolute Spiritual Perfection of the Manifestations of God, one must understand Their station and stories according to the Qur'an, and not through the Bible or the Tanakh.

http://www.quran.org.uk/articles/ieb_quran_torah.htm

Here is a good comparison between the views of the Messengers of God through the Qur'an and the Tanakh.

 

[gnostic]

Since Prophets of God cannot be corrupt, according to both Islam and the Baha'i Faith, they have traditionally seen both the Gospel and the Tanakh as corrupted and tampered from the antiquities of time.

The stories of the Manifestations of God in both the Qur'an and the Baha'i Scriptures have painted a different view of Them... so in order to understand or take into account the Baha'i and Islamic idea of the absolute Spiritual Perfection of the Manifestations of God, one must understand Their station and stories according to the Qur'an, and not through the Bible or the Tanakh.

A Comparative Study of Three Accounts in the Qur'an and the Torah

Here is a good comparison between the views of the Messengers of God through the Qur'an and the Tanakh.

The problem with Islam (and Baha'i Faith) and Muslims claiming the Judaeo-Christian scriptures to be corrupted, they can't say what texts have been corrupted. It is one thing to say it is corrupted, but when they can't show people the relevant texts that have been corrupted.

And in order to check for corruption you need supposed corrupted text and the correct text to compare the two. Now, unless the Qur'an or the Baha'i scriptures contained all the "correct" books which we can compare with books from the bible, then the claims of corruption are meaningless.

And claims that God wrote the Qur'an is also meaningless (and baseless). Muslims can't prove it, and never will be able to prove it. It is one thing to say the prophets were inspired by God, but to say that God is the author, is about believable as the fairy god mother turning a pumpkin into a royal cart.

 

[Bismillah]

That's seemed to be the case with what Islam teaches.

Evidence?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Also if 1 Samuel 16 is the time when David became prophet, then long before he David was ever king and before he ever met Bathsheba, and just before he met King Saul and fought Goliath.

As I said, the Bible does not specifically say when David became prophet. So, if I said that 1 Samuel 16 indicates he became a prophet, I take that back.

But it can be seen from the Bible, that at some point, David became righteous and upright. That is at some point (After he repented regarding his sins) there is no indication that David ever sinned again.

and we can see that actually David claimed that He had the words of God:

The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. 2 Samuel 23:2

Having the words of God, is what makes one prophet. Not talking to God. Even I and you can talk to God by saying a prayer, for example I can say O My God, Help me. It's clear that we are talking to God when we pray. That doesn't make us a prophet. But receiving the Word of God is the prophethood. That is being able to say the Will of God. Or in another word, when God uses someone as His own Mouthpiece.

That indicate he could speak to God (prophet), before he met ever Bathsheba. So if David was prophet, then he had err with the Bathsheba episode, and that would indicate prophets were not infallible as you think.

Therefore If we take the Bible story regarding David as our basis, He did claim to be a prophet and that was after He became righteous.

But generally, the Baha'i view is that, although the Bible fundamentally is the Word of God, and Baha'is are encouraged to read and learn from it, but not all of it's details are accurate, simply because it was written later, and there is no proof of being authentic. But in the case of Baha'i scriptures, they are written by the prophet and it's originals are available, with signature or seals of the prophet.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I suppose they're as falible as anyone else who makes crap up.

 

[Gaura Priya]

The problem with Islam (and Baha'i Faith) and Muslims claiming the Judaeo-Christian scriptures to be corrupted, they can't say what texts have been corrupted. It is one thing to say it is corrupted, but when they can't show people the relevant texts that have been corrupted.

There are many points of view to this. Some believe in the general 'the Bible has been corrupted over time' and others have postulated that during the recording of the Scriptures, scribal errors have crept into the Scriptures themselves. Others say that the texts have indeed been kept pristine since the Scriptures of God can not be corrupted, but their exigesis has been wrong.

And in order to check for corruption you need supposed corrupted text and the correct text to compare the two. Now, unless the Qur'an or the Baha'i scriptures contained all the "correct" books which we can compare with books from the bible, then the claims of corruption are meaningless.

I agree!

And claims that God wrote the Qur'an is also meaningless (and baseless). Muslims can't prove it, and never will be able to prove it. It is one thing to say the prophets were inspired by God, but to say that God is the author, is about believable as the fairy god mother turning a pumpkin into a royal cart.

It is the same with most, if not all the Scriptures of the world. The Vedic literatures claim to be infallible, prescriptive, and whatnot. I see the Scriptures and read them in a metaphorical or spiritual light, and take it according to the approach of the Bhagavatam: "On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etc., of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest." -- Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.5.11

For me personally, the Manifestations of God brought guidance to each culture of humanity from age to age, simultaneously... rather than seeing Progressive Revelation in a linear, vertical line, I see religion and that established by Manifestations as more horizontal.

Their Human Station is that of fallibility, weakness, and yet, utter hopes in trying to understand. They have doubted, They have mistrusted, They have done things that perhaps God would not have liked... and yet Their Spiritual Station is that which is immortal, infallible... They manifest the power of God on Earth, and have moved civilisations and societies to flourishing and fruitfulness.

 

[Bismillah]

Like I said I would like evidence to establish the sweeping generalisations this thread takes into account as a base premise.

 

[Gaura Priya]

"The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these Souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest."

-- Baha'u'llah

 

[YmirGF]

Does being a prophet, make that person infallible?

Who is to say that they are actually prophets from a bona fide god though?

That's seemed to be the case with what Islam teaches.

I don't really get that impression. Muhammad was a man. He could make mistakes. Like others have noted, it was his revelation that is considered to infallible (The Qur'an).

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if any references to possible mistakes have been removed from the historical record over the last 1400 years, leaving us with a sanitized version of his lifetime.

Do you think prophet can't make mistake?

I think the biggest mistake they make is believing they have been anointed by god to speak for him.

Or are they just as human as the rest of us?

In the future we may describe such people as suffering from a form of mental illness.

Only In the case of Prophets, this mirror is perfect.

Do you not find it troubling that this suggestion comes from the so-called "prophets" themselves?

 

[Agnostic75]

So what about the biblical prophets who proved to be wrong about things they prophesied?

Better stated, what proved to be right that indicates divine inspiration?

If the Bible contained many fulfilled prophecies regarding some natural disasters, month, day, and year, that would be quite interesting, but since the Bible is not the word of God, it does not have any prophecies of that quality. If the Bible did have some prophecies of that quality, it is probable that more people would be Christians. For some strange reason, the God of the Bible wants to limit the size of the Christian church.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Do you not find it troubling that this suggestion comes from the so-called "prophets" themselves?

No, why should I find it troubling? If it had come from anyone else other than the prophets I should have found it troubling. It's directly from the source, not from the saying of people.

 

[gnostic]

As I said, the Bible does not specifically say when David became prophet. So, if I said that 1 Samuel 16 indicates he became a prophet, I take that back.

But it can be seen from the Bible, that at some point, David became righteous and upright. That is at some point (After he repented regarding his sins) there is no indication that David ever sinned again.

and we can see that actually David claimed that He had the words of God:

The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. 2 Samuel 23:2

Have you read the definition I have given on "infallible", back at post 7?

Infallible has nothing to do with being "holy". It has nothing to do with being sinless. And perfect is not really not a quantifiable word, subjected to personal perception, taste. Like truth, perfection is subjective outlook not an objective one.

We could go to a restaurant, and eat the same dish and I would probably think it was perfectly cooked with the right amount of ingredient, but you might eat the same dish and find it too salty or too sweet or too spicy or something else, and you hate it, so you don't think dish is perfect. That's because our taste buds are not the same.

All infallible means, is the inability to make mistake; or to err.

As I have stated infallible earlier, it has nothing to do with sin. Making mistake or error in judgment doesn't necessarily always lead to sin.

As to David. You do realise that in the entire 1 Samuel that relates to David, he was perfect in many ways. It was the only time he didn't make mistake in his life. God had chosen him to be king, and he played his part precisely how it turn out. David was fulfilling his purpose to replace the old king. Here, to the end of the book, David seemed to be larger than life.

A couple of times, Saul was in David's hand, where David couldn't have kill the king, but he didn't. Despite Saul's hatred and treatment towards young David, David loved his king.

In the entire 2 Samuel, he was seen as a more human than the 1st book, and showed to be less than perfect. Gee, I hate the word, "perfect", because it is inaccurate descriptive word. The incident with Bathsheba was David's greatest mistake.

Having the words of God, is what makes one prophet. Not talking to God. Even I and you can talk to God by saying a prayer, for example I can say O My God, Help me. It's clear that we are talking to God when we pray. That doesn't make us a prophet. But receiving the Word of God is the prophethood. That is being able to say the Will of God. Or in another word, when God uses someone as His own Mouthpiece.

As to your comment about God and David talking with one another, 2 Samuel 1 showed that David was not merely praying. David actually asking a direct question to God on what he should do next, and he was given a direct answer back.

And was David was not merely talking to God, he was God's instrument in fulfilling God purpose, which was to replace Saul as king. Like Abraham before him, God had covenant with David, that his line would have kingship, beginning with David. David was more like Abraham and Moses than other prophets, like Isaiah and Jeremiah. Like Abraham and Moses, David played a far more active roles in fulfilling prophecy and covenants, because they were instruments and leaders. Whereas Jeremiah and Isaiah were merely mouthpieces.

If you read Abraham in Genesis, he gave no prophecy. He talked to God and receive something far more important than simple prophecy, he had God's covenant (promised of land for his descendants). Just like Moses (law and the lands that was promised to Abraham, fulfilled partly by Moses, mostly through Joshua), and just like David (kingship).

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Like I said I would like evidence to establish the sweeping generalisations this thread takes into account as a base premise.

According to the Quran as well as recorded islamic Sayings, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was a perfect man and represented Godhead.

perfect human: al-Insān al-Kāmil الإنسان الكامل

Al-Ins

"And you [Muhammad] stand on an exalted standard of character" (68:4)

Also, according to Quran, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) represented Godhead. His action, was the action of God:

For example, Prophet Muhammad threw shafts on enemies, it was revealed that, it was God's.
“[O Muhammad] Those shafts were God’s, not Thine!” 8:17.

Also:

“In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee [Muhammad], really plighted that fealty unto God.” 48:10

There is also recorded saying in the islamic sources that God said to Muhammad:

“But for Thee, I would have not created the heavens.”

Which means God created the heavens because of Muhammad, which shows the station of Muhammad.

and this station applies to all the prophets, not only Muhammad:

“No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers!” Qur’án 2:285