I'm a retired cop. Wanna hear how it really is?

[jeager106]

If you're interested, here is another perspective on the Cato study (which doesn't appear to be on the website any longer).
Cato Study Distorts the Truth on Welfare and Work | Economic Policy Institute

MARISA: Well done and well documented and enlightening.
It makes me hopeful that persons on the dole can work and keep both as it leads
to a better work ethic. On the other hand it's a stinking shame educated people find themselves in need of welfare benefits.
About blacks assimilating into American culture.
Well Lincoln freed the slaves in Jan 1863 but freed the to what? They were still downtrodden
beaten people with no identity, no self worth, no skills, no idea how to get such and we
turned them loose on American and expected what out of that?

 

[Politesse]

I think that would largely relate as to how one may define "racist", and for me I tend to define it as a feeling that certain race(s) are inferior or superior based on emotional feelings. I'm race conscious, for example, but I'm not a racist using my definition.

Well, rare is the person who admits to that. I think racism is a more subtle thing, a slow, quiet acceptance that race is an essential fact about a human being, a fact that makes them different from anyone who does not share their skin color, a fact that justifies assuming you know something about your neighbor before you know them because of their skin color.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sorry but no. Anecdotal experience can and is used to reinforce confirmation bias.

Of course, anecdotes can be faux evidence to fuel a misunderstanding.
I don't justify that scenario.
(Some people are better using experience to grok reality than others, so not all such views are equivalent.)
Instead, I point to the usefulness of one's own experience as a perspective from which to judge evidence offered by others.
Fraught with peril this is, but worse it would be to embrace the opinions of others in a vacuum.
That would take some faith.
We should note that even experts using advanced quantum laser calculus to crunch data will exhibit bias & emotion.
Moreover, you've no basis to claim that emotion has skewed what I've seen.
It could be that it has, but you don't know.
It could also be that your opposition is emotional.
Tis hubris for one to dismiss another's experience when it conflicts with one's preferred beliefs.

Yes there are bad statistics around "How to Lie with Statistics" is still a good book to read. But the answer is not to toss science away in favor of emotional bias but to fix the studies by careful peer review and replication.

Toss away science?
Heaven forbid!
Science has been my money maker (although I haven't shaken it lately).
The scientific method is all about finding circumstances where the theories fail to match data.
It's the ever continuing process by which better theories replace the old.
Question the high & mighty, for no one has THE TRUTH.

To toss your words back at you In an engineer's parlance, design is making intelligent compromises for an optimal result.

I don't see what's being "tossed" other than agreement about designing systems..

Using the best statistics we have while trying to improve them IS an intelligent compromise tending toward an optimal result. Cherry picking anecdotes is not.

How do you judge what statistics are "the best"?
Is this not also "cherry picking" when there are conflicting studies?
It seems that you're vigorously arguing against my claim that experience (ie, a series of anecdotes) is useful in evaluating statistical studies.
If I run across examples which fly in the face of popular "facts", would you argue that I should not question them?
I also note that no one has presented a single study to conflict with what I've seen.

Statistics by themselves do not reason....they're (at best) merely one group's look at data.
Presuming the data are accurate & that the analysis is correct, we have information.
And what if they made some bad assumptions or mistakes?
The usefulness of this information is as premises in a cogent argument.
Tis the argument which is of value, not the mere claim that there are "statistics".

 

[Marisa]

MARISA: Well done and well documented and enlightening.
It makes me hopeful that persons on the dole can work and keep both as it leads
to a better work ethic. On the other hand it's a stinking shame educated people find themselves in need of welfare benefits.
About blacks assimilating into American culture.
Well Lincoln freed the slaves in Jan 1863 but freed the to what? They were still downtrodden
beaten people with no identity, no self worth, no skills, no idea how to get such and we
turned them loose on American and expected what out of that?

It's very true that many mistakes have been made since that dark time in US history. I hope that is more is learned, we can figure out how conservative and liberal Americans can work together to find the best path forward.

 

[Revoltingest]

On the other hand it's a stinking shame educated people find themselves in need of welfare benefits.

Not all educations are equal. And not all people, even educated ones, are useful to an employer.
We've a problem in Americastan that high schools educate kids with an eye towards college.
They don't pay much attention to the non-college bound. Industrial arts & more practical skills
have been eliminated from our school system here. And yet there is a sore need for workers
trained in blue collar jobs, eg, machinist, welder, bookkeeper.
Getting a degree is no guarantee of a job. If the field has no value, eg, international diversity studies
(yes, it's a real degree), then one might find oneself no better off than just a high school grad.

 

[jeager106]

Not all educations are equal. And not all people, even educated ones, are useful to an employer.
We've a problem in Americastan that high schools educate kids with an eye towards college.
They don't pay much attention to the non-college bound. Industrial arts & more practical skills
have been eliminated from our school system here. And yet there is a sore need for workers
trained in blue collar jobs, eg, machinist, welder, bookkeeper.
Getting a degree is no guarantee of a job. If the field has no value, eg, international diversity studies
(yes, it's a real degree), then one might find oneself no better off than just a high school grad.

Well said. I've encouraged my 15 year old son to either go to college or pick a SKILL.
Any skilled trade should be in demand for a long time and money earned is often
greater than many PhD degrees.
The market place has been literally flooded with lawyers that often starve for along time
before establishing a paying practice and many never get there.
I recall a conversation I has with a starving lawyer when I was Chief of Investigations.
He had the nerve to ask me to tell him when a cop screwed up an arrest as he
"needed a city to sue".
There will always be jobs for machinists, plumber contractors,
skilled carpenters, and more.
Degrees in Sociology, Counseling, well, they can find jobs but better line up for
food stamps while your working.
A degree in criminal justice is just as worthless as cops make poor money for the risk
involved and there are always lawyers slobbering for the chance to sue a cop.
I've been sued four times and it ain't pretty. ( I won them all but it makes one real nervous)

 

[Revoltingest]

Well said. I've encouraged my 15 year old son to either go to college or pick a SKILL.
Any skilled trade should be in demand for a long time and money earned is often
greater than many PhD degrees.
The market place has been literally flooded with lawyers that often starve for along time
before establishing a paying practice and many never get there.
I recall a conversation I has with a starving lawyer when I was Chief of Investigations.
He had the nerve to ask me to tell him when a cop screwed up an arrest as he
"needed a city to sue".
There will always be jobs for machinists, plumber contractors,
skilled carpenters, and more.
Degrees in Sociology, Counseling, well, they can find jobs but better line up for
food stamps while your working.
A degree in criminal justice is just as worthless as cops make poor money for the risk
involved and there are always lawyers slobbering for the chance to sue a cop.
I've been sued four times and it ain't pretty. ( I won them all but it makes one real nervous)

Don't be so sure about machinists being need more than engineers.
The latter designs machines to eliminate the former.

Starving lawyers.....I could get used to the idea.

 

[jeager106]

Don't be so sure about machinists being need more than engineers.
The latter designs machines to eliminate the former.

Starving lawyers.....I could get used to the idea.

Yes indeed machinists, except for small job shops that don't pay well, could become
almost obsolete with new C.N.C. machines doing all the work and much faster and more
accurate than the old one at a time machinist could do.

Doctors should be in demand for a long time but 10 years education worth ton of bucks
puts that out of reach for most.
Nurse practioner is a fast growing field. They can do almost anything a doc can do and
I think they spend a bit more time with the patient than a doc ever would.
Then there is machine repair. Everything breaks sooner or later and a real skilled
machine repairman is, for now, in demand.
My middle son has been in residential building since 16 and can literally do anything now
in the building trades, even once designed custom decks for homes and built them.
I imagine he'll have work as long as he wants it but it can be weather dependent around
here. He did well in Fla. before the housing market busted over night.

 

[Marisa]

Don't be so sure about machinists being need more than engineers.
The latter designs machines to eliminate the former.

Starving lawyers.....I could get used to the idea.

It's always the *&^%$#@ engineers.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's always the *&^%$#@ engineers.

It's true.
We never solve big problems....only little ones.
I've worked on machines to kill more effectively.
And I've worked on machines to save lives more effectively.
The net effect is that if you don't get killed in a war, you'll live longer.

 

[sun rise]

MARISA: Well done and well documented and enlightening.
It makes me hopeful that persons on the dole can work and keep both as it leads
to a better work ethic. On the other hand it's a stinking shame educated people find themselves in need of welfare benefits.
About blacks assimilating into American culture.
Well Lincoln freed the slaves in Jan 1863 but freed the to what? They were still downtrodden
beaten people with no identity, no self worth, no skills, no idea how to get such and we
turned them loose on American and expected what out of that?

You're ignoring the data which paints a very very different picture. First there's the economic disincentive for those on the lower end of the scale to be married. Then you have the wealth transfer to the very rich which is devastating the middle class including the black middle class:

The Pew Charitable Trusts' Economic Mobility Project recently released a report projecting that 68 percent of African-Americans reared in the middle of the wealth ladder will not do as well as the previous generation.
US Black Middle Class Is Suffering - Business Insider

Then you have the legal system targeting blacks - locking them up at much higher rates than whites for the same crimes. When I was a stupid adolescent, I was caught shoplifting. My punishment was to bring a signed letter from my parents proving that I told them what I had done - with the assumption that they would deal with it. Were I black today, I have zero doubt I would be in the slammer but if I were white, I would no doubt get off much much more lightly.

It's not black culture which is a root problem - it's systematic and ongoing discrimination along with destruction of the middle class by the super-wealthy that is the ongoing source of the problem.

 

[sun rise]

Well said. I've encouraged my 15 year old son to either go to college or pick a SKILL.
Any skilled trade should be in demand for a long time and money earned is often
greater than many PhD degrees.
The market place has been literally flooded with lawyers that often starve for along time
before establishing a paying practice and many never get there.
I recall a conversation I has with a starving lawyer when I was Chief of Investigations.
He had the nerve to ask me to tell him when a cop screwed up an arrest as he
"needed a city to sue".
There will always be jobs for machinists, plumber contractors,
skilled carpenters, and more.
Degrees in Sociology, Counseling, well, they can find jobs but better line up for
food stamps while your working.
A degree in criminal justice is just as worthless as cops make poor money for the risk
involved and there are always lawyers slobbering for the chance to sue a cop.
I've been sued four times and it ain't pretty. ( I won them all but it makes one real nervous)

With the economy the way it is now, you have a point. You need a career that can't be outsourced. But I really do disagree with you about psychology/counseling. Friends of mine are in the helping professions and are doing just fine, thank you very much. Of course supply and demand are at work and if too many have the wrong degree or get trained for the wrong skills, there will be unemployment.

But as a note, and it might make you feel better, legal outsourcing is a growing trend.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What a luxury it is to have a former employer support one until one finds a dream job, while turning down others.

It was pretty nice when I was getting it, and because I put in so much over time I was getting I think it was only 30 dollars less than a full time check, which I was using more than that in gas to get to-and-from work, so I came out on top.
And of course they wouldn't have had to pay me had my medical paper work not found its way into limbo between the hospital, the third-part company that handled medical leaves, and the company I worked for, causing my leave to be denied, which made it so I had missed work for over a month. I actually found out I lost my job when I got my COBRA papers in the mail.
But I can honestly say I did take the first job that was offered to me, which was a huge mistake because I had to quit it shortly after because it was a paper route and I was not making any money after gas and car repairs/maintenance.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

While I can agree in part to some of your points I can't agree with the whole thing. There are still looming racial issues that have inhibited certain aspects of African American life.

But something that was touched on that I don't think is touched on enough. That is a form of Ghetto loyalty. There is a real psychological study (having a hard time finding it as I'm posting from work while I'm on downtime) where people who grow up in the "ghetto" or lower income neighborhods, especially those that have a "hood" subculture, have a pressure to stay in the hood. Ask people that did grow up in hard neighborhoods if they are welcome back to their old hangouts if they were able to make good choices for themselves and get out of that kind of lifestyle. Most will tell you that they aren't welcome anymore. They have "betrayed" their culture in some ways. This spans across racial lines but most obviously affects that of African Americans and Hispanic/Latino Americans. Over generations there has been a created subculture of "us vs the man" style dynamic. Some of it is true but it has pressured young people especially, to make short term decisions with long term consequences. For example my ex-wife grew up in this kind of neighborhood. This doesn't reflect everyone but in her specific case (and she was white and this is only noteworthy to prove a point. To double challenge stereotypes she was Jewish as well) and she had INCREDIBLE problems with entitlement. It was a key factor of our divorce. She didn't want to work, she didn't feel like she "needed" to work. She didn't do housework, she didn't do anything. She would be offended when I asked her to pull her weight. Her mother is even worse and that is how she was raised. Take everything you can and ride it out.

Many people live in lower income neighborhoods that do not fall prey to this and live their lives working hard and doing the best they can. But the pressure is real and it exists. Providing equal opportunity is step one. Step two in solving this problem is finding a way to combat this sociological pressure to stay loyal to entitlement lifestyles.

 

[Skwim]

While I can agree in part to some of your points I can't agree with the whole thing. There are still looming racial issues that have inhibited certain aspects of African American life.

But something that was touched on that I don't think is touched on enough. That is a form of Ghetto loyalty. There is a real psychological study (having a hard time finding it as I'm posting from work while I'm on downtime) where people who grow up in the "ghetto" or lower income neighborhods, especially those that have a "hood" subculture, have a pressure to stay in the hood. Ask people that did grow up in hard neighborhoods if they are welcome back to their old hangouts if they were able to make good choices for themselves and get out of that kind of lifestyle. Most will tell you that they aren't welcome anymore. They have "betrayed" their culture in some ways. This spans across racial lines but most obviously affects that of African Americans and Hispanic/Latino Americans. Over generations there has been a created subculture of "us vs the man" style dynamic. Some of it is true but it has pressured young people especially, to make short term decisions with long term consequences. For example my ex-wife grew up in this kind of neighborhood. This doesn't reflect everyone but in her specific case (and she was white and this is only noteworthy to prove a point. To double challenge stereotypes she was Jewish as well) and she had INCREDIBLE problems with entitlement. It was a key factor of our divorce. She didn't want to work, she didn't feel like she "needed" to work. She didn't do housework, she didn't do anything. She would be offended when I asked her to pull her weight. Her mother is even worse and that is how she was raised. Take everything you can and ride it out.

Many people live in lower income neighborhoods that do not fall pretty to this and live their lives working hard and doing the best they can. But the pressure is real and it exists. Providing equal opportunity is step one. Step two in solving this problem is finding a way to combat this sociological pressure to stay loyal to entitlement lifestyles.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[Wirey]

It's always the *&^%$#@ engineers.

I'll let that slide because you're hot and braless (I assume).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

While I can agree in part to some of your points I can't agree with the whole thing. There are still looming racial issues that have inhibited certain aspects of African American life.

But something that was touched on that I don't think is touched on enough. That is a form of Ghetto loyalty. There is a real psychological study (having a hard time finding it as I'm posting from work while I'm on downtime) where people who grow up in the "ghetto" or lower income neighborhods, especially those that have a "hood" subculture, have a pressure to stay in the hood. Ask people that did grow up in hard neighborhoods if they are welcome back to their old hangouts if they were able to make good choices for themselves and get out of that kind of lifestyle. Most will tell you that they aren't welcome anymore. They have "betrayed" their culture in some ways. This spans across racial lines but most obviously affects that of African Americans and Hispanic/Latino Americans. Over generations there has been a created subculture of "us vs the man" style dynamic. Some of it is true but it has pressured young people especially, to make short term decisions with long term consequences. For example my ex-wife grew up in this kind of neighborhood. This doesn't reflect everyone but in her specific case (and she was white and this is only noteworthy to prove a point. To double challenge stereotypes she was Jewish as well) and she had INCREDIBLE problems with entitlement. It was a key factor of our divorce. She didn't want to work, she didn't feel like she "needed" to work. She didn't do housework, she didn't do anything. She would be offended when I asked her to pull her weight. Her mother is even worse and that is how she was raised. Take everything you can and ride it out.

Many people live in lower income neighborhoods that do not fall pretty to this and live their lives working hard and doing the best they can. But the pressure is real and it exists. Providing equal opportunity is step one. Step two in solving this problem is finding a way to combat this sociological pressure to stay loyal to entitlement lifestyles.

Loyalty happens in far more areas than just the hood. Many groups, and even jobs, can and often do place such pressures on people to stay.
It's easily seen here at Chrysler, where driving non-union cars, and especially foreign cars, is very taboo. Such cars, by very strong group pressure, have to be parked in the back of the parking lot at work and there is a sign at the union hall that says they are not allowed to be parked at all and they will be towed off the premises (I don't know if that is actually legal or not, but the sign is nevertheless there).
And the pressure on any young person to belong and form their identity is very strong. This is why there is such a concern about peer pressure during this time, because they want to fit and belong, and there is a real fear, and danger, or rejection for refusal to conform.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Loyalty happens in far more areas than just the hood. Many groups, and even jobs, can and often do place such pressures on people to stay.
It's easily seen here at Chrysler, where driving non-union cars, and especially foreign cars, is very taboo. Such cars, by very strong group pressure, have to be parked in the back of the parking lot at work and there is a sign at the union hall that says they are not allowed to be parked at all and they will be towed off the premises (I don't know if that is actually legal or not, but the sign is nevertheless there).
And the pressure on any young person to belong and form their identity is very strong. This is why there is such a concern about peer pressure during this time, because they want to fit and belong, and there is a real fear, and danger, or rejection for refusal to conform.

This is true. In many cases this social pressure can be harmful in many ways. However I can't think of any that is more harmful on a large scale than the lower economic pressures. They also are nearly all encompassing as we have created schools that are sub par in these same areas.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

However I can't think of any that is more harmful on a large scale than the lower economic pressures.

Neither can I. But it's hardly an issue of race. Those of lower economic status are often targeted by terrorist recruitment efforts and Germany, as a whole, was in economic shambles when Hitler came to power. Poverty is something that reaches across time, national borders, race, sex, and it does bring with many problems.

 

[Marisa]

I'll let that slide because you're hot and braless (I assume).

Well you got one right.