I'm a retired cop. Wanna hear how it really is?

[Revoltingest]

If you're interested, here is another perspective on the Cato study (which doesn't appear to be on the website any longer).
Cato Study Distorts the Truth on Welfare and Work | Economic Policy Institute

Perhaps The Economic Policy Institute is very uncomfortable with what happens in the real world.
I personally know 2 women who were single mothers once. (One worked for me, & the other worked for a commercial tenant of mine.) Both sought government benefits at one time. The social workers they talked to advised them to quit their jobs because their total compensation would be greater if they were unemployed.

As a landlord, I've run into innumerable cases of tenants on the dole who didn't need it & didn't want to work. It happens, no matter what statistical shenanigans some might play. We must end the practice of gutting a recipient's benefits as soon as they start making some real money. There shouldn't be incentives to not work. This is unfair to all, especially the poor.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You're wrong about states "allowing" welfare recipients to work. It's a requirement.

Here in Indiana if you receive any form of welfare you either have to be working, looking for work, or in school/some sort of training program.

 

[Marisa]

Perhaps The Economic Policy Institute is very uncomfortable with what happens in the real world.
I personally know 2 women who were single mothers once. (One worked for me, & the other worked for a commercial tenant of mine.) Both sought government benefits at one time. The social workers they talked to advised them to quit their jobs because their total compensation would be greater if they were unemployed. As a landlord, I've run into innumerable cases of tenants on the dole who didn't need it & didn't want to work. It happens.

What must be done is to end the practice of gutting a recipient's benefits as soon as they start making some real money. There shouldn't be incentives to not work.

Again, the only thing that can counter anecdotal experiences is another anecdotal experience. Everyone knows someone who knows someone who did something that somehow circumnavigates "the system". The question, IMO, is not "does that happen" as if we can ever reach a state of perfection, but "how often does this happen" and that is when we recognize the need to look at the whole picture, and not just the part of the picture we can see because it's right in front of us.

That said, I completely agree with you vis a vis not gutting benefits despite a person earning some money.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What must be done is to end the practice of gutting a recipient's benefits as soon as they start making some real money. There shouldn't be incentives to not work.

That would be a great start. My case worker has advised me to be choosy about what jobs I take, because if I take one that offers crappy insurance, I'll loose my state insurance.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am not a "perfect" worker, but my previous employers (except for one, who was an absolute **** who literally would not have her job if she wasn't ****ing the DM) would not say I am lazy or a bad worker. I have been on food stamps, I am currently on state insurance, but one of those former employers regrets having not treated me better than he did.

Tis good that you're in a position to discover the underlined change in someone.

 

[Revoltingest]

Again, the only thing that can counter anecdotal experiences is another anecdotal experience. Everyone knows someone who knows someone who did something that somehow circumnavigates "the system". The question, IMO, is not "does that happen" as if we can ever reach a state of perfection, but "how often does this happen" and that is when we recognize the need to look at the whole picture, and not just the part of the picture we can see because it's right in front of us.

Anecdotal experience, when extensive, is a view of the world which can allow us to detect BS in statistics.
Social Justice Warriors infect academia on a massive level. They can play games with assumptions &
analysis. I've seen it at the Institute For Social Research & even Scientific American....even basic math mistakes.
The "whole picture" is important. And broad experience is at least as important as "studies".

That said, I completely agree with you vis a vis not gutting benefits despite a person earning some money.

And I arrived at this conclusion by seeing anecdotes.
Economics is nothing but micro-economics (individual incentives & actions) in aggregate.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Tis good that you're in a position to discover the underlined change in someone.

It wasn't hard since it was a gas station just down the road. Except now I won't go there anymore because the crew really sucks.
I've had another former boss call me up (an inventory company), on three separate occasions, trying to get me to work for him again, but my response, all three times, was that I am not going back to work for a place where it is very possible for a higher-end mid-level manager to make less than regular crew (that higer-end mid-level manager being me). That, and that job takes a toll on the body with the odd hours, no set schedule, and constant bending, stooping, leaning, and getting down on-and up off the floor.

 

[Marisa]

Anecdotal experience, when extensive, is a view of the world which can allow us to detect BS in "statistics".
Social Justice Warriors infect academia on a massive level. They can play games with assumptions &
analysis. I've seen it at the Institute For Social Research & even Scientific American....even basic math mistakes.
The "whole picture" is important. And broad experience is at least as important as "studies".

That's a valid point. And part and parcel the reason why I provided Jaeger with what I called an alternate perspective to the Cato Institute report he provided. It's not possible for human beings to not inject some even very small amount of bias. It's not as important that our information be bias free, but that we recognize not the just the bias for what it is, but the value of an opinion that's not lock-step with our own. That's why instead of reading someone analysis of the statistics, which is what the Cato report it, I prefer to see the stats themselves.

And I arrived at this conclusion by seeing anecdotes.

I didn't need the anecdotes, it just seems logical to me that if the goal of the welfare system to help people get out of poverty and we define poverty to be X income, that if income falls below X then by definition of the goals of the system itself, the assistance is still needed.

 

[Revoltingest]

I didn't need the anecdotes, it just seems logical to me that if the goal of the welfare system to help people get out of poverty and we define poverty to be X income, that if income falls below X then by definition of the goals of the system itself, the assistance is still needed.

Public policy should do more than just provide minimal benefits. The bennies should be provided with incentive to work, & ultimately get off the dole. This is where experience (anecdotes) with the system shows us failed policy. We can see people's choices when confronted with options. These choices when writ large become reality....even if it doesn't show up in the statistics of government & academics.

 

[Marisa]

Public policy should do more than just provide minimal benefits. The bennies should be provided with incentive to work, & ultimately get off the dole. This is where experience (anecdotes) with the system shows us failed policy. We can see people's choices when confronted with options. These choices when writ large become reality....even if it doesn't show up in the statistics of government & academics.

I'm not arguing with you that failures don't exist within the system. I am suggesting that when we look at the big picture, the system as a whole, that those failures that seem to comprise the totality of the system in our myopic view may not really be that large. It's important to try to make the system as close to perfect as we can, while understanding that perfection is not an attainable goal; and focusing solely on the failures within the system can make us blind to the successes. And as I mentioned in a previous comment, it might be important to recognize that certain realities might the change the way we view a "failure" of the system, i.e. how an extremely high unemployment rate accompanied by a record recession may necessitate the laxing or even suspension of certain requirements.

I find no problem with requirements to work or participate in job retraining. And neither do most Americans.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not arguing with you that failures don't exist within the system. I am suggesting that when we look at the big picture, the system as a whole, that those failures that seem to comprise the totality of the system in our myopic view may not really be that large. It's important to try to make the system as close to perfect as we can, while understanding that perfection is not an attainable goal; and focusing solely on the failures within the system can make us blind to the successes. And as I mentioned in a previous comment, it might be important to recognize that certain realities might the change the way we view a "failure" of the system, i.e. how an extremely high unemployment rate accompanied by a record recession may necessitate the laxing or even suspension of certain requirements.

I find no problem with requirements to work or participate in job retraining. And neither do most Americans.

Alas, our system is rather anti-work. In Michiganistan, a person on unemployment insurance may turn down jobs, may collect more in benefits than one even earned when working, & the system is a nightmare of incompetence from the employer's perspective. Thus, workers have an incentive to remain unemployed, & employers have a disincentive to hire, especially temporary workers. As a result, I deal only with independent contractors.

I recently spent about a month fighting with the state's attempt to force me to pay unemployment benefits to an employee who was fired for cause. She never even worked for my company. I know her only as a result of trying to collect. Time & money wasted on governmental caprice, incompetence, & their view that I'm just a source of revenue.

Btw, I don't believe in perfection.
In an engineer's parlance, design is making intelligent compromises for an optimal result.

 

[Marisa]

Alas, our system is rather anti-work. In Michiganistan, a person on unemployment insurance may turn down jobs, may collect more in benefits than one even earned when working, & the system is a nightmare of incompetence from the employer's perspective. Thus, workers have an incentive to remain unemployed, & employers have a disincentive to hire, especially temporary workers. As a result, I deal only with independent contractors.

I don't think it's a matter of get a job . . . any job. I think there is value, for instance, in my husband looking for a civilian job compensatory with his military experience in leadership despite the fact that he hasn't a degree in Business Management. Similarly, if a highly educated individual finds himself unemployed due to economic circumstances, I'm okay with that person holding out for a job that will come closer to meeting their needs than a minimum wage, part time, no benefits job would. I'm looking at a bigger picture, it's not just about making people work, it's also about helping them get to or back to a job that gives them a comfortable standard of living. If minimum wage jobs are going to be for high school and college kids soley, then we need to get the heads of households out of those jobs. There are a number of ways we can do that, and not all require Ph.D.'s.

I recently spent about a month fighting with the state's attempt to force me to pay unemployment benefits to an employee who was fired for cause. She never even worked for my company. I know her only as a result of trying to collect.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to make of that, but I'll reiterate that there will probably always be people who try to game the system. I'll give you an anecdote of my own: I once had to fight a large legal firm for unemployment benefits because I was fired for . . . and I quote (because I asked for it in writing) . . . . stapling papers together the wrong way. That would be on the left side instead of the right side, despite the fact that I'd never been counseled on this preference.

Btw, I don't believe in perfection.
In an engineer's parlance, design is making intelligent compromises for an optimal result.

I can hang with that.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think it's a matter of get a job . . . any job. I think there is value, for instance, in my husband looking for a civilian job compensatory with his military experience in leadership despite the fact that he hasn't a degree in Business Management. Similarly, if a highly educated individual finds himself unemployed due to economic circumstances, I'm okay with that person holding out for a job that will come closer to meeting he needs than a minimum wage, part time, no benefits job would. I'm looking at a bigger picture, it's not just about making people work, it's also about helping them get to or back to a job that gives them a comfortable standard of living. If minimum wage jobs are going to be for high school and college kids soley, then we need to get the heads of households out of those jobs. There are a number of ways we can do that, and not all require Ph.D.'s.

What a luxury it is to have a former employer support one until one finds a dream job, while turning down others.
(Bear in mind that the employer pays much more to the state than the state pays the former worker. They get a big cut.)
So many here treat unemployment benefits as an extended vacation, not seeking a job until the bennies run out.
(Of course, the more industrious ones will earn money "under the table" so that the benefits keep coming.)
One can always upgrade from a menial job to a better one if that becomes an option.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to make of that, but I'll reiterate that there will probably always be people who try to game the system. I'll give you an anecdote of my own: I once had to fight a large legal firm for unemployment benefits because I was fired for . . . and I quote (because I asked for it in writing) . . . . stapling papers together the wrong way. That would be on the left side instead of the right side, despite the fact that I'd never been counseled on this preference.

The system shouldn't be designed for slackers & fraudsters to game it. But government is in the business of taking money from us (business) & then doling out a portion to former employees. Since they get to keep a large percentage of revenue, they've little incentive in efficiency & integrity.

Hey! Did you just give me an anecdote?
I've seen numerous cases of employees fired for cause, but the state gives'm benefits anyway.

I can hang with that.

Be careful that you don't let engineers infect you.

 

[Marisa]

Be careful that you don't let engineers infect you.

Never fear. I keep a can of lyesol in my purse in case of emergencies.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Dr. King would be revolted to see what's happened to an entire race of humans that live in a
gimme more culture.
There, that's one cops take that's been there done that.

It's a motivation issue. The solution to motivation issues is to organize emotion. Mainly the family, that's where most emotions is. But if family doesn't work, then people should organize in terms of a friendship group. I believe gangs are in essence such friendship groups. Gangs are the instinctive solution of people to the motivation problem. I think gangs should be reformed on a democratic basis and get status as a social unit besides family as a social unit.

 

[Politesse]

What this post really demonstrates is that "policing" someone does not lead to understanding them. Inspiring WWII Christmas glurge excepted, across the trenches of a war is not a good environment for fostering empathy, or even clear sight. This person walked every day through entire neighborhoods of mostly decent people who did their best to do things "the right way", who hate violence and love God and each other, and he only saw the gangbangers and tweakers. Well, I suppose seeing the gangbangers and tweakers was his job. But I'm not going to accept his testimony as quality social analysis, you know?

 

[metis]

I meant to write "Wanna HEAR" not here. Duh!

I'm white. I served 22.5 years in the mean streets.
My city was at least 40% ethnic, mostly African American Blacks.
I joined the force at the tail end of the race riots in the late 60's & early 70's.
Black people HATED me tho I was raised very poor right along side of many of those I dealt with.
This nation got started off badly by allowing slavery in the south.
This nation fought a bloody Civil War to end this abomination. 600,000 dead at least
and who knows how many wounded physically and mentally?
Former slaves had a tough time being accepted in the new "free" culture.
A free culture in name only as we all know.
The real black hero's were Fredrick Douglas (a personal hero of mine) and Dr. Carver, the Tuskegee
Airmen, those of the only black tank Division that fought in WWII with great courage, and
not in the least Dr. King.
In order to do something to help black our government began paying blacks to live.
Paying them to have children, giving away free NEW hoses, and grand educational opportunities.
This is a very brief synopsis of welfare but I think the points will be made.
This started a multi-generational "gimme" attitude of "entitlement".
"I'm black, I'm young, and it's YOUR fault I'm po' and live in da hood".
When I was a cop we arrested people caught shoplifting. Most all were young blacks.
I've searched black thieves cars and found trunks FULL of expensive clothing stolen
from who knows where?
Parents of these thieving young people simply took them from custody without a word said
against stealing. Hmmm?
I am not racist I am realistic.
We created a monster of young blacks who feel entitled to do what they want and when caught
they protest. Now everyone has video and the video we see on the news is the portion of the
event that looks the worse for authority and the best for victims.
When a white cop reacts badly it gets national attention. It should.
But do we see the whole picture?
Have you ever been surrounded by hundreds of black people threatening, cursing, advancing
upon your alone self?
I HAVE! It ain't pretty.
I NEVER went for the gun. I remained totally calm as I'm NOT afraid of blacks. I grew up with
blacks. Turned out to my credit in the long run.
We live in a world of African Americans many of whom grew up without a father and on the
benefits of the government (read tax payers).
Young blacks live in an aura of entitlement without responsibility.
Our nation is coming unglued and it's going to get even uglier.
The black citizens of America have FAILED completely to assimilate into the American culture.
Dr. King would be revolted to see what's happened to an entire race of humans that live in a
gimme more culture.
There, that's one cops take that's been there done that.

Let me say, "it's complicated" as there's so many different factors that are involved. However, let me focus in on just one-- the issue of "polarization".

I would assume that most blacks and whites are not racist. However, with that being said, most Americans are probably quite "race conscious"-- unless one lives under a rock and never reads or watches the news.

As with so many other occurrences, when a racial conflict occurs, there's going to be this "polarization" phenomenon that tends to kick in, and an increasing number will tend to take sides on the issue of which race they are. This puts pressure on those in the middle who may find themselves hated by both sides, so for security's sake they will tend to drift whereas they're less likely themselves to feel the hatred, usually becoming more inclined to back those in their own race because this is most of the people that form their primary and secondary groups.

This tends to create what's often called "the snowball effect", so we see this "we"/"they" dichotomy develop and magnify, and this happens even in areas whereas there's a spin-off effect (such as "police versus blacks") that only indirectly relates. Then when this keeps snowballing, other situations tend to become racially tinged as well, even if race had nothing to do with them.

It's a mess, and it is one that defies solutions, although as long as situations don't keep feeding it, over time it can dissipate.

 

[sun rise]

Anecdotal experience, when extensive, is a view of the world which can allow us to detect BS in statistics.
Social Justice Warriors infect academia on a massive level. They can play games with assumptions &
analysis. I've seen it at the Institute For Social Research & even Scientific American....even basic math mistakes.
The "whole picture" is important. And broad experience is at least as important as "studies".

And I arrived at this conclusion by seeing anecdotes.
Economics is nothing but micro-economics (individual incentives & actions) in aggregate.

Sorry but no. Anecdotal experience can and is used to reinforce confirmation bias. Yes there are bad statistics around "How to Lie with Statistics" is still a good book to read. But the answer is not to toss science away in favor of emotional bias but to fix the studies by careful peer review and replication.

To toss your words back at you In an engineer's parlance, design is making intelligent compromises for an optimal result. Using the best statistics we have while trying to improve them IS an intelligent compromise tending toward an optimal result. Cherry picking anecdotes is not.

 

[Politesse]

Let me say, "it's complicated" as there's so many different factors that are involved. However, let me focus in on just one-- the issue of "polarization".

I would assume that most blacks and whites are not racist. However, with that being said, most Americans are probably quite "race conscious"-- unless one lives under a rock and never reads or watches the news.

As with so many other occurrences, when a racial conflict occurs, there's going to be this "polarization" phenomenon that tends to kick in, and an increasing number will tend to take sides on the issue of which race they are. This puts pressure on those in the middle who may find themselves hated by both sides, so for security's sake they will tend to drift whereas they're less likely themselves to feel the hatred, usually becoming more inclined to back those in their own race because this is most of the people that form their primary and secondary groups.

This tends to create what's often called "the snowball effect", so we see this "we"/"they" dichotomy develop and magnify, and this happens even in areas whereas there's a spin-off effect (such as "police versus blacks") that only indirectly relates. Then when this keeps snowballing, other situations tend to become racially tinged as well, even if race had nothing to do with them.

It's a mess, and it is one that defies solutions, although as long as situations don't keep feeding it, over time it can dissipate.

With the added complication that those boundaries aren't just perceptive, and they aren't optional. You can't choose not to identify with your race, or to void the advantages or disadvantages that come with it. I would venture that most people are racist to some degree - how would you even survive in the contemporary US without understanding how people are going to look at you, what jobs you get to work, how much your high school diploma is worth, what neighborhoods you will be allowed to live in, what will happen if you wear a hooded sweatshirt in front of a cop?

 

[metis]

With the added complication that those boundaries aren't just perceptive, and they aren't optional. You can't choose not to identify with your race, or to void the advantages or disadvantages that come with it. I would venture that most people are racist to some degree - how would you even survive in the contemporary US without understanding how people are going to look at you, what jobs you get to work, how much your high school diploma is worth, what neighborhoods you will be allowed to live in, what will happen if you wear a hooded sweatshirt in front of a cop?

I think that would largely relate as to how one may define "racist", and for me I tend to define it as a feeling that certain race(s) are inferior or superior based on emotional feelings. I'm race conscious, for example, but I'm not a racist using my definition.