Ignorance Doesn't Excuse Your Sin Sonny. Off to Hell You Go

[Skwim]

For starters, 2 thessalonians 1:9 says "eternal destruction." That is what fire symbolizes. Will reply to the other scriptures later.

Doesn't matter if that's what fire symbolizes, a five stars inscribed in a square symbolizes, or Donald Duck's rear end symbolizes, it's the same: everlasting/eternal destruction.


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[Jenny Collins]

So you acknowledge that the fire symbolizes eternal destruction. Good. Look at Rev 20:14. It says "death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire." Many translations translate the word hades and sheol as hell, but the mean the grave. Some bibles say "death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire." How can hell be thrown into hell ? How can death and the grave burn? Only flammable materials burn? It is symbolic of destruction. Death will be destroyed. In fact that verse goes on to say "this means the second death, this lake of fire. " It means it will be the end of death. Read Rev 21:4. It says "death will be no more ." Also the book of Isaiah says that "death will be swallowed up"

 

[Jenny Collins]

Matt13:47-50 says people will be separated. Bad ones will be thrown into a fiery furnace. The furnace is like an incinerator. Incinerators destroy things. They burn stuff into nothingness. It symbolizes eternal destruction. If someone cuts up wood, the wood still exists. But if they burn it, it turns to ash and can no longer be reconstructed. That is why fire symbolizes permanent destruction. Interestingly these scriptures talk about a net cast into the sea that brings up fish. The fish symbolize people. They arent literal, the net and sea are not literal and neither is the fire. As far as the reference to "weeping and gnashing of teeth" this shows grief and lamentation. Anger too. The Bible says that the pharisees gnashed their teeth at Jesus, out of anger. So weeping and gnashing of teeth, does not prove the anger and grief is from being tortured in fire. It just shows unhappiness in knowing that they have forfeited the gift of life and salvation.

 

[Jenny Collins]

Then what do you do with the scriptures that do show the god of Abraham to be a vicious god?

Matthew 12:47-50
47 “Also, God’s kingdom is like a net that was put into the lake. The net caught many different kinds of fish. 48 It was full, so the fishermen pulled it to the shore. They sat down and put all the good fish in baskets. Then they threw away the bad fish. 49 It will be the same at the end of time. The angels will come and separate the evil people from the godly people. 50 They will throw the evil people into the place of fire. There the people will cry and grind their teeth with pain.”

Matthew 13:40-42
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:46
46 “Then these evil people will go away to be punished forever. But the godly people will go and enjoy eternal life.”

Mark 9:43
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Jude 1:7
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

​

If they don't mean what they say then just what do they mean?


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Jude 1:7 compares it to the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah, and we of course ow it they were destroyed in fire. But we lso know that that fire has long ago een extinguished. It is not burning to this day.

 

[Skwim]

So you acknowledge that the fire symbolizes eternal destruction.

No more so than do five stars inscribed in a square or Donald Duck's rear end. Which raises the question, So What? Just like five stars inscribed in a square or Donald Duck's rear end, fire is not mentioned or any more relevant. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is no more grounds for the contention that fire symbolizes eternal destruction than the contention that Donald Ducks rear end symbolizes eternal destruction. You're pulling nonsense out of thin air.

[RE. Mark 9:43]Scripture about cutting hand off is clearly not literal. Hands dont make us stimble and we dont cut them off. It means whatever is a stumbling block we must remove. And what the scripture is supposed to say instead of Hell, is Gehenna which was a garbage dump.

Interesting that you have the inside scoop on what the words in the Bible really mean--I assume you have no degrees in ancient Greek or are a biblical scholar. In any case, the contention that Gehenna (also called the Valley of Hinnom) was a garbage dump is unsupported by history and archeology, although it was used for child sacrifice .

The Valley of Hinnom​

Furthermore, just why do you think "Gehenna" is used in a few translations of Mark 9:43 (about 11% of them)? Think this tiny valley could actually hold all the evil people in the world undeserving of heaven? Of course not. It couldn't hold a fraction of a fraction of them. So obviously it is used as a metaphor for where god really sent such people: hell.

Anyway, if you ac ept that it means literal fire, then you must caccept that we should cut our hands off

Do you honestly contend that where an object in a sentence is indicated by a euphemism or metaphor then all other objects in that sentence are also indicated by a euphemism or metaphor? If so I strongly recommend a refresher course in English composition.


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[Ben Avraham]

Scripture about cutting hand off is clearly not literal. Hands dont make us stimble and we dont cut them off. It means whatever is a stumbling block we must remove. And what the scripture is supposed to say instead of Hell, is Gehenna which was a garbage dump. Anyway, if you ac ept that it means literal fire, then you must caccept that we should cut our hands off.

Very good JC, I totally agree with you!

 

[Ben Avraham]

Everyone has an excuse for why the Bible does not mean what it says. Everyone will be given a chance to know what their sins are and to repent and stop sinning. Only those who refuse to repent and stop sinning will be punished.

So, the only way to set things right with God so that, our sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow is to follow the "3 R's": Repent, restore and return to the obedience of the Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19)

 

[Ben Avraham]

I believe I am not forgetting just recognizing that what you are saying is there is not really there.

Why don't you let me know? Perhaps the problem is because we both are reading from different translations. Mine is the JPS a Jewish translation of the Tanach while, if I don't make a mistake, you must be reading from the KJV.

 

[Ingledsva]

For starters, 2 thessalonians 1:9 says "eternal destruction." That is what fire symbolizes. Will reply to the other scriptures later.

Yep, in fact from Tanakh on, most fiery flame or fiery furnace references are related to the Smelting Furnace, which destroys the dross, leaving only the pure.

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[Ingledsva]

2Th 1:9 is not talking about torture.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

We have the fire reference again - which means the smelting furnace which destroys the dross, leaving the pure.

In the Greek the words are turned around giving a truer meaning.

2Th 1:8 In a fiery blaze bestowing vindication on them that don't acknowledge God, and that don't heed the message of the Lord Jesus Christos.


2Th 1:9 Which same, rightful penalty/judgment is death/destruction eternal from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power.

So no torture, - but death eternal.

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[Ben Avraham]

2Th 1:9 is not talking about torture. 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; We have the fire reference again - which means the smelting furnace which destroys the dross, leaving the pure. In the Greek the words are turned around giving a truer meaning. 2Th 1:8 In a fiery blaze bestowing vindication on them that don't acknowledge God, and that don't heed the message of the Lord Jesus Christos. 2Th 1:9 Which same, rightful penalty/judgment is death/destruction eternal from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power. So no torture, - but death eternal. *

The gospel of your lord Jesus "Christ" was the Tanach. Have you by any chance forgotten that Jesus was a Jewish man?

 

[Jenny Collins]

Skwim No, I don't have adegrre in bible languages. I don't one in order to know a handful of words. That is what lexicons, dictionaries and concordances for. It is very easy to learn individual words.

 

[Jenny Collins]

Skwim Gehenna WAS a varbage dump. Children may have been sacrificed there. Corspses of criminals were thrown there and eventually it just became a dump.

 

[Skwim]

Skwim Gehenna WAS a varbage dump. Children may have been sacrificed there. Corspses of criminals were thrown there and eventually it just became a dump.

From bibleplaces.com

"The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna

I have long wanted to do a little work to debunk the endlessly repeated myth that the Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) was a perpetually burning trash dump. There simply is no evidence to support the idea, but because it seems a reasonable explanation for the origin of the Hinnom Valley as “hell,” writers and preachers accept and propagate the story.

As with the legend about the rope around the high priest’s ankle, this popular myth seems to have originated in Jewish circles in the Middle Ages. McBride has more details and the sources in his post.

The explanation for the “fire of Gehenna” lies not in a burning trash dump, but in the burning of sacrificed children. Jeremiah is explicit that such occurred here:

Jeremiah 7:31–32 (ESV) — And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere.
Isaiah had already envisioned Topheth as the fiery destiny of an enemy of God.​

It is not difficult to see, from these and other texts (e.g., 2 Kgs 23:10; 2 Chr 28:3, 33:6; Jer 32:35), why Jesus and his contemporaries used the word Gehenna (“valley of Hinnom”) as synonymous with the place of everlasting fiery torment. Indeed, there is no reason to search further for ancient burning piles of discarded newspapers, product packaging, and junk mail.

UPDATE (4/29): The views of various scholars on the matter is presented in a new post"

source​

 

[Jenny Collins]

The idea of a place of literal fire is stlen from paganism, and Dante's inferno helped popularize the idea.

 

[Jenny Collins]

From bibleplaces.com

"The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna

I have long wanted to do a little work to debunk the endlessly repeated myth that the Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) was a perpetually burning trash dump. There simply is no evidence to support the idea, but because it seems a reasonable explanation for the origin of the Hinnom Valley as “hell,” writers and preachers accept and propagate the story.

As with the legend about the rope around the high priest’s ankle, this popular myth seems to have originated in Jewish circles in the Middle Ages. McBride has more details and the sources in his post.

The explanation for the “fire of Gehenna” lies not in a burning trash dump, but in the burning of sacrificed children. Jeremiah is explicit that such occurred here:

Jeremiah 7:31–32 (ESV) — And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere.
Isaiah had already envisioned Topheth as the fiery destiny of an enemy of God.​

It is not difficult to see, from these and other texts (e.g., 2 Kgs 23:10; 2 Chr 28:3, 33:6; Jer 32:35), why Jesus and his contemporaries used the word Gehenna (“valley of Hinnom”) as synonymous with the place of everlasting fiery torment. Indeed, there is no reason to search further for ancient burning piles of discarded newspapers, product packaging, and junk mail.

UPDATE (4/29): The views of various scholars on the matter is presented in a new post"

source​

I just found lots of sources that confirmed it was a garbage dump. And a couple of scholars who question it. I believe the ones ho say it was a dump. You mention kids being sacrificed in its fires. When Israelites copied the pagan nations and sacrificed their kids in fire, God was angry and said such a thing "had not come up into my heart" to sacrifice them in fire. Anyone who sacrificed kids in Gehenna was going against God's wishes. Torturing people in fire is something God finds abhorant.

 

[Ingledsva]

The gospel of your lord Jesus "Christ" was the Tanach. Have you by any chance forgotten that Jesus was a Jewish man?

Again! - Not my religion, - thus not my Lord Jesus!

I've already pointed out that Jesus was a Jew, so NO human sacrifice. Also that things Christianity says about Jesus were written later, some of it on erroneous material.

In Tanakh when they are talking about blazing fire, furnace, etc., they are talking about the blazing fire of the smelting furnace. That is the base of the word. The smelting furnace destroys the dross, leaving only the pure. Metaphor.

Now, what is your pertinent question, or reply, concerning my post?

*

 

[Ben Avraham]

Again! - Not my religion, - thus not my Lord Jesus! I've already pointed out that Jesus was a Jew, so NO human sacrifice. Also that things Christianity says about Jesus were written later, some of it on erroneous material. In Tanakh when they are talking about blazing fire, furnace, etc., they are talking about the blazing fire of the smelting furnace. That is the base of the word. The smelting furnace destroys the dross, leaving only the pure. Metaphor. Now, what is your pertinent question, or reply, concerning my post?

Sorry Ingledsva, I reread your post and now I see that you are in tune with Psalms 49:12,20. I totally agree with you.

 

[Ingledsva]

From bibleplaces.com

"The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna

I have long wanted to do a little work to debunk the endlessly repeated myth that the Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) was a perpetually burning trash dump. There simply is no evidence to support the idea, but because it seems a reasonable explanation for the origin of the Hinnom Valley as “hell,” writers and preachers accept and propagate the story.

As with the legend about the rope around the high priest’s ankle, this popular myth seems to have originated in Jewish circles in the Middle Ages. McBride has more details and the sources in his post.

The explanation for the “fire of Gehenna” lies not in a burning trash dump, but in the burning of sacrificed children. Jeremiah is explicit that such occurred here:

Jeremiah 7:31–32 (ESV) — And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere.
Isaiah had already envisioned Topheth as the fiery destiny of an enemy of God.​

It is not difficult to see, from these and other texts (e.g., 2 Kgs 23:10; 2 Chr 28:3, 33:6; Jer 32:35), why Jesus and his contemporaries used the word Gehenna (“valley of Hinnom”) as synonymous with the place of everlasting fiery torment. Indeed, there is no reason to search further for ancient burning piles of discarded newspapers, product packaging, and junk mail.

UPDATE (4/29): The views of various scholars on the matter is presented in a new post"

source​

Unger's Bible Encyclopedia says they were burning and burying bodies there before Josiah ceremonially polluted it by DIGGING UP THE Corpses and contaminating the alters to other Gods.

He says it became a laystall for solid waste, and sewage was conducted to it, to be carried off by the waters of the Kidron.

*

 

[Jenny Collins]

Unger's Bible Encyclopedia says they were burning and burying bodies there before Josiah ceremonially polluted it by DIGGING UP THE Corpses and contaminating the alters to other Gods.

He says it became a laystall for solid waste, and sewage was conducted to it, to be carried off by the waters of the Kidron.
Thank,you