If you believe in God, why do you sin?

[Ingledsva]

Human nature. Though, I doubt that this will be a suitable enough answer, I believe it to be the core issue. Believers are human too and are full of flaws.

Some of us in fact, acknowledge how imperfect we are and this contributes partially to our beliefs and commitment to acknowledge our own sinful behavior and repent of it.

Contrary to what the dude in the video suggests - I am aware of God watching and holding me accountable to my actions. Therefore, when I knowingly sin, I struggle with it. I look internally and question why I'm acting in such a way. This doesn't mean that I'm strong enough to always resist temptation, but, I'm certainly aware that when I do wrong in the presence of God and others, I'm accountable unless I feel remorse for my actions and make efforts to improve.

Most in my peer group who identify as Christian believe this way.

I didn't find anything in the video to be profound or telling. I think this line of questioning is par for the course with many believers. It's part of our spiritual development and growth.

But the question was WHY?

Why do you prevent yourself/have self control from doing what your religion considers sin - in front of your children, or loved ones, or people you want to respect you, - BUT you WILL do those same "sins" in front of your God? of whom you said - "I am aware of God watching and holding me accountable to my actions."

Why do you feel enough SHAME in front of a human you care about - that it prevents you from committing the "sin,"

but have NO SHAME doing those same "sins" in front of your professed GOD?


*

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Human nature. Though, I doubt that this will be a suitable enough answer, I believe it to be the core issue. Believers are human too and are full of flaws.

I don't consider it suitable, no. Saying "human nature" doesn't answer anything. "Human nature" is just what people tend to do; the question here is why people do what they do.

I'm fine with the idea that humans are flawed, but I don't see how this explains why someone would be more flawed when they think only God is watching and less flawed in the presence of other people.

 

[dawny0826]

But the question was WHY?

Why do you prevent yourself/have self control from doing what your religion considers sin - in front of your children, or loved ones, or people you want to respect you, - BUT you WILL do those same "sins" in front of your God? of whom you said - "I am aware of God watching and holding me accountable to my actions."

Why do you feel enough SHAME in front of a human you care about - that it prevents you from committing the "sin,"

but have NO SHAME doing those same "sins" in front of your professed GOD?

I've already answered your questions. I don't purposefully go out of my way to sin when in the presence of God either. If I do anything that I know is wrongful, I struggle with it. I'm not proud of it and I repent for it.

I have also already stated that I believe it human nature to do certain things alone (but in the presence of God) that you might not do in front of others. But, this isn't to say that the believer doesn't feel embarassment, remorse, shame and guilt if engaging in something that is sinful while alone (but in the presence of God) OR that the believer purposefully defies God when alone.

I don't deliberately go out of my way to do wrongful things in any context. I am however, human and I catch myself doing that which isn't right or could be improved upon at times.

 

[dawny0826]

I don't consider it suitable, no. Saying "human nature" doesn't answer anything. "Human nature" is just what people tend to do; the question here is why people do what they do.

I'm fine with the idea that humans are flawed, but I don't see how this explains why someone would be more flawed when they think only God is watching and less flawed in the presence of other people.

I don't know WHY I am inclined to do crappy things from time to time, Jeff. I can't answer WHY outside the scope of my religious beliefs as to where sin originated.

I think you misread me, because, I wouldn't consider myself more flawed when only God is watching. God is always watching. Sin is sin.

 

[Thana]

I don't consider it suitable, no. Saying "human nature" doesn't answer anything. "Human nature" is just what people tend to do; the question here is why people do what they do.

I'm fine with the idea that humans are flawed, but I don't see how this explains why someone would be more flawed when they think only God is watching and less flawed in the presence of other people.

Consider this, If you're caught by someone doing something wrong, There are consequences, But if you do something wrong infront of God, there aren't any consequences. Atleast, no worldly consequences.

That is why one is more willing to sin infront of God than they are people.

 

[Ingledsva]

But the question was WHY?

Why do you prevent yourself/have self control from doing what your religion considers sin - in front of your children, or loved ones, or people you want to respect you, - BUT you WILL do those same "sins" in front of your God? of whom you said - "I am aware of God watching and holding me accountable to my actions."

Why do you feel enough SHAME in front of a human you care about - that it prevents you from committing the "sin,"

but have NO SHAME doing those same "sins" in front of your professed GOD?

I've already answered your questions. I don't purposefully go out of my way to sin when in the presence of God either. If I do anything that I know is wrongful, I struggle with it. I'm not proud of it and I repent for it.

I have also already stated that I believe it human nature to do certain things alone (but in the presence of God) that you might not do in front of others. But, this isn't to say that the believer doesn't feel embarassment, remorse, shame and guilt if engaging in something that is sinful while alone (but in the presence of God) OR that the believer purposefully defies God when alone.

I don't deliberately go out of my way to do wrongful things in any context. I am however, human and I catch myself doing that which isn't right or could be improved upon at times.

You still miss the point.


Why do you have more respect (and fear) for humans - then for your God?


If you can respect/fear - what humans think - and therefor don't commit the sin, -


But don't feel enough respect/fear - of what your God thinks - and therefor go ahead and commit the sin -


even though you know - from your NOT doing it - in front of people you care about - that you are capable of NOT DOING SUCH SIN -


then that is a slap in the face to your God. :yes:


*

 

[Ingledsva]

I don't know WHY I am inclined to do crappy things from time to time, Jeff. I can't answer WHY outside the scope of my religious beliefs as to where sin originated.

I think you misread me, because, I wouldn't consider myself more flawed when only God is watching. God is always watching. Sin is sin.

Being born into a world of sin, - does not mean you need to, - or automatically will, - sin.


*

 

[dawny0826]

You still miss the point.


Why do you have more respect (and fear) for humans - then for your God?


If you can respect/fear - what humans think - and therefor don't commit the sin, -


But don't feel enough respect/fear - of what your God thinks - and therefor go ahead and commit the sin -


even though you know - from your NOT doing it - in front of people you care about - that you are capable of NOT DOING SUCH SIN -


then that is a slap in the face to your God. :yes:


*

I think you have missed my point.

I don't discriminate against sin performed before people or sin performed in front of God alone. I construe sin in any context to be unacceptable in the eyes of God. Therefore, I strive to live a life that reflects Christ and is free of sin.

However, I don't know a single human being alive who is capable of pure perfection. I'm telling you honestly that I'm not perfect and I make mistakes. I don't purposefully set out to do the wrong things and have a reptenting spirit for any wrongdoing...regardless as to who I'm in the company of.

It's still human nature to be embarassed by, angered over or distraught by actions.

You'll find fault in anything that I say, regardless as to my honesty.

 

[dawny0826]

Being born into a world of sin, - does not mean you need to, - or automatically will, - sin.


*

It doesn't. You falsely assume that the believer somehow STRIVES to sin in front of God and/or places the value of action in front of peers to be of greater importance.

I don't hold this opinion.

I don't know if you and I subscribe to the same defnitions of sin. It it would be unfair for either of us to project out understandings upon anyone else as fact.

I'm of the opinion, that I'm incapable of imperfection. Perhaps you hold another understanding. More power to you.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Consider this, If you're caught by someone doing something wrong, There are consequences, But if you do something wrong infront of God, there aren't any consequences. Atleast, no worldly consequences.

That is why one is more willing to sin infront of God than they are people.

I think the fact that you pretty much equated "no consequences" with "no worldly consequences" speaks to the main issues of this thread. It suggests that "non-worldly" things have a lower sort of existence compared to "worldly" things.

As an analogy, even though I've never set foot outside North America, I would never say something like "... there are no consequences. At least no North American consequences." Even though I've never experienced anything outside North America, I still treat all the other continents as places that actually do exist just as much as here.

 

[Thana]

I think the fact that you pretty much equated "no consequences" with "no worldly consequences" speaks to the main issues of this thread. It suggests that "non-worldly" things have a lower sort of existence compared to "worldly" things.

As an analogy, even though I've never set foot outside North America, I would never say something like "... there are no consequences. At least no North American consequences." Even though I've never experienced anything outside North America, I still treat all the other continents as places that actually do exist just as much as here.

Your analogy really just isn't the same, I get what you're trying to convey, But it just doesn't work when you compare it to spiritual/worldly.
We're not just talking about different places, We're talking about mindset and priorites etc.

Besides, We're worldly beings, It's much harder to focus on spirit and eternity than it is to focus on flesh and temporary.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I've never been convinced that most people who claim belief in god(s) actually believe in said deity in any meaningful way because of their inconsistency between the behaviors such a belief should entail and their actual behaviors. Personally, I don't think most peoples' claimed beliefs are examined or considered enough to be meaningful. It's mostly just social affectation and psychological projection.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your analogy really just isn't the same, I get what you're trying to convey, But it just doesn't work when you compare it to spiritual/worldly.
We're not just talking about different places, We're talking about mindset and priorites etc.

I don't understand what you mean.

Besides, We're worldly beings, It's much harder to focus on spirit and eternity than it is to focus on flesh and temporary.

That's what I was getting at with my analogy: I admit that I do focus on the people around me more than the people far away, but I still recognize that those people exist and take them into account in my decision-making.

... though I'm still not sure that what you're saying really supports your case. Yes, a person on the other side of the planet is far away and sometimes easily ignored. Do you believe that God is far away and easily ignored? Wouldn't this have implications for your theology?

I've heard many theists tell me that literally all of creation testifies to God and his greatness. If this was really true, how could you ever put God out of your mind?

 

[Quintessence]

I've heard many theists tell me that literally all of creation testifies to God and his greatness. If this was really true, how could you ever put God out of your mind?

Couldn't this easily be accounted for given the fact that the human animal has relatively telescopic awareness or salience of phenomena at any given moment in time? We cannot place our conscious attention and focus everywhere at once, nor are we capable of maintaining conscious attention on a single thing or idea for long periods of time. It just seems to me that it is extraordinarily unrealistic to expect anything to occupy someone's mind during all of their waking hours. I'm pretty sure it's a physiological impossibility for the human species. The only near-exception that comes to mind are extremes of meditation, where literally the only thing the person does for days, weeks, months, maybe even years on end is meditate.

 

[Thana]

I don't understand what you mean.


That's what I was getting at with my analogy: I admit that I do focus on the people around me more than the people far away, but I still recognize that those people exist and take them into account in my decision-making.

... though I'm still not sure that what you're saying really supports your case. Yes, a person on the other side of the planet is far away and sometimes easily ignored. Do you believe that God is far away and easily ignored? Wouldn't this have implications for your theology?

I've heard many theists tell me that literally all of creation testifies to God and his greatness. If this was really true, how could you ever put God out of your mind?

I don't think He is far away but yes I think He is easily ignored, People do it everyday. Ignore His guidance, His teachings, His message. As an (assumed) Atheist, In my mind, You attest to that. So no it does not have implications on my theology.

Also, that's a little unfair and unrealistic. Is Abiogensis always on your mind? Do you always think about it when you look at everything you believe is the result of it?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Couldn't this easily be accounted for given the fact that the human animal has relatively telescopic awareness or salience of phenomena at any given moment in time? We cannot place our conscious attention and focus everywhere at once, nor are we capable of maintaining conscious attention on a single thing or idea for long periods of time. It just seems to me that it is extraordinarily unrealistic to expect anything to occupy someone's mind during all of their waking hours. I'm pretty sure it's a physiological impossibility for the human species. The only near-exception that comes to mind are extremes of meditation, where literally the only thing the person does for days, weeks, months, maybe even years on end is meditate.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that someone being inundated with constant reminders of something to be conscious of that something as long as he's being reminded of it.

If you don't think that believers are being inundated with constant reminders of God, fair enough, but then you're not the sort of believer I was describing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't think He is far away but yes I think He is easily ignored, People do it everyday. Ignore His guidance, His teachings, His message. As an (assumed) Atheist, In my mind, You attest to that. So no it does not have implications on my theology.

Obviously, I'm talking about a viewpoint that I don't agree with here, so it's difficult for me to defend. But I have been told by some believers that atheists actually believe in God but just pretend that he doesn't exist.

So I take it that you disagree with the claim that unbelievers are "without excuse", right?

Also, that's a little unfair and unrealistic. Is Abiogensis always on your mind? Do you always think about it when you look at everything you believe is the result of it?

That's not a fair analogy:

- while I think that abiogenesis is the best explanation we have for life, I don't think that everything I see "testifies" to the truth of abiogenesis.

- I might not be thinking about abiogenesis every waking minute of the day, but I never accidentally slip into creationism when I lose my concentration.

If I was surrounded by nothing but posters that said "hooray for abiogenesis!" then yes, it would probably be hard for me not to think about abiogenesis.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

So this video showed up in my Facebook feed today:

[youtube]iJXxmwLj2Os[/youtube]
TESTING for Faith in God (Proof you do NOT believe) - YouTube

I have some issues with it, both in terms of its tone and its conclusion (because of compartmentalization, I disagree with their inherent assumption that a person's belief system is consistent with itself), but I think it raises an interesting question:

If you really do believe in God, why do you sin?

As the video points out, many (most?) people won't commit "shameful" acts in the presence of loved ones when the loved ones are aware of what's going on. In many cases, they'll be physically incapable of doing it because of a reflexive reaction to the idea. However, these same people often don't feel the same reflexive reaction about committing the same act in front of God.

The example given was masturbation: people who claim to believe in an all-seeing or omnipresent God - and claim to believe that this God disapproves of masturbation - would never think of masturbating in front of their parents or even strangers, but they will still masturbate "in front of God" when they're by themselves.

So... why is this? Why will people who claim to put God first often hold themselves to a higher standard when they're around other people than they will when they're only in the presence of God?

Just because you believe in God, doesn't mean that your god disapproves of these things. For example, I am a Deist, and my god really doesn't care if I masturbate or not. He/She/or It may not even be aware of what I am doing, and even if so, what harm is it doing? Why should He/She/It care? However, for those who are Christians, which I am assuming that this is targeted against, they already believe that all humans are of sinful nature regardless of their belief or disbelief. That's kind of the whole point of Christianity. That humans are sinful, and in need of a savior, regardless of what they believe.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Just because you believe in God, doesn't mean that your god disapproves of these things. For example, I am a Deist, and my god really doesn't care if I masturbate or not. He/She/or It may not even be aware of what I am doing, and even if so, what harm is it doing? Why should He/She/It care?

The issue is that people who believe in God and think that he is aware of what he's doing often go against what they think God wants of them. The masturbation example was just that: an example.

 

[Nakosis]

I think in Christian theology their sins are forgiven. They accept they cannot live the perfect life. Even Hitler would be forgiven of his sins in accepting salvation through Jesus Christ.

Most Christian try to do Gods work, Gods will but know they will fail. They try not because it will affect anything, they try because they love God.

I suppose that means they don't have to overcome all temptations of the flesh. It's not really required. They have salvation in spite of their sins. However their desire to make God happy modifies their behavior somewhat. Their willfulness doesn't change just because they've been saved. Some though feel their desires will be altered by the Holy Spirit. They will start to lose their sinful nature.