If you believe in God, why do you sin?

[Thana]

If I knew there was a video camera point at me and that my mother or my friend was watching me on a monitor, this would affect my behaviour. Wouldn't it affect yours?

All day, every day? For months, even years? And you think you wouldn't eventually convince yourself to do something that you know they wouldn't approve of? That's naive.

This is like saying that people who believe in "God" can pretend that "God" does not exist. At least long enough to get their rocks off.

I'm not saying they pretend God doesn't exist, My point was that people will do what they want and convince themselves of whatever suits their agenda and makes them feel better. They'll find a way to do what they want without the consequences holding them back.

 

[columbus]

This is like saying that people who believe in "God" can pretend that "God" does not exist. At least long enough to get their rocks off.

In Melosh's introduction thread I mentioned how much I prefer religions that are understood to fiction by the adherents, and this describes many abrahamicists. This thread is evidence.

Tom

 

[Willamena]

All day, every day? For months, even years?

:yes:

And you think you wouldn't eventually convince yourself to do something that you know they wouldn't approve of? That's naive.

Which is it? Do you believe humans are inherently immature, or inherently rebellious?

I'm not saying they pretend God doesn't exist, My point was that people will do what they want and convince themselves of whatever suits their agenda and makes them feel better. They'll find a way to do what they want without the consequences holding them back.

So inherently immature.

 

[fantome profane]

I just want to say that if "God" is watching me masturbate, "he" is the one that ought to be ashamed, not me. Voyeuristic pervert!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

God already knew what you were going to do before Earth even existed. With that in mind, I find this question quite pointless.

 

[Thana]

:yes:
Which is it? Do you believe humans are inherently immature, or inherently rebellious?
So inherently immature.

Not immature.. More like.. Hedonistic and selfish. Course, There are exceptions to the rule, But I feel comfortable saying the majority of us are hedonistic and selfish.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

All day, every day? For months, even years? And you think you wouldn't eventually convince yourself to do something that you know they wouldn't approve of? That's naive.

I think I might eventually forget about the camera if I wasn't thinking about it. Do you think theists eventually forget that God exists?

IMO, a theist who has forgotten that God exists is an atheist.

 

[Willamena]

More like.. Hedonistic and selfish.

That is immature.

 

[Thana]

I think I might eventually forget about the camera if I wasn't thinking about it. Do you think theists eventually forget that God exists?

IMO, a theist who has forgotten that God exists is an atheist.

I wasn't talking about forgetting that they are there, I was talking about your hedonistic desires overpowering your desire to be right or good in their eyes. And the more time passes, the more the desire grows.

It's simply wanting something more than you want something else. In other words, Wanting to masturbate more than you want your mother to believe you're an angel.

And in the religious sense, Wanting to sin more than wanting to be righteous.

This isn't rocket science, This is basic stuff that the guy in the video is trying to twist into being profound. It's not. Everyone has wanted something 'bad' more than they want to be considered good, Even if for a moment.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I wasn't talking about forgetting that they are there, I was talking about your hedonistic desires overpowering your desire to be right or good in their eyes. And the more time passes, the more the desire grows.

It's simply wanting something more than you want something else. In other words, Wanting to masturbate more than you want your mother to believe you're an angel.

I lived with my mother for nearly 20 years. I managed to get through that entire time never masturbating in front of her. Not even once.

How many times have you masturbated in front of your mother?

And in the religious sense, Wanting to sin more than wanting to be righteous.

This isn't rocket science, This is basic stuff that the guy in the video is trying to twist into being profound. It's not. Everyone has wanted something 'bad' more than they want to be considered good, Even if for a moment.

I don't think this is true. I think that for the vast majority of people, the idea that they're being watched is enough to stop them from doing things they don't want others to see them doing.

Heck - even a poster with "watching eyes" will do the trick:

Melissa Bateson and colleagues at Newcastle University, UK, put up new price lists each week in their psychology department coffee room. Prices were unchanged, but each week there was a photocopied picture at the top of the list, measuring 15 by 3 centimetres, of either flowers or the eyes of real faces. The faces varied but the eyes always looked directly at the observer.

In weeks with eyes on the list, staff paid 2.76 times as much for their drinks as in weeks with flowers. “Frankly we were staggered by the size of the effect,” Gilbert Roberts, one of the researchers, told New Scientist.

Freakonomics » Scarecrows work on people too

 

[Thana]

I lived with my mother for nearly 20 years. I managed to get through that entire time never masturbating in front of her. Not even once.

How many times have you masturbated in front of your mother?

Of course you're not going to choose to do it infront of her if you had the choice of privacy, But if you take my analogy (she's watching you through camera's, Every day for months/years) then eventually your desire will overcome you and you'll just go for it. That is human nature.

I don't think this is true. I think that for the vast majority of people, the idea that they're being watched is enough to stop them from doing things they don't want others to see them doing.

Mm.. There are camera's everywhere. You're constantly being watched when you go out in public and yet people still commit crimes, have sex, do embarrassing things in public.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

So this video showed up in my Facebook feed today:

[youtube]iJXxmwLj2Os[/youtube]
TESTING for Faith in God (Proof you do NOT believe) - YouTube

I have some issues with it, both in terms of its tone and its conclusion (because of compartmentalization, I disagree with their inherent assumption that a person's belief system is consistent with itself), but I think it raises an interesting question:

If you really do believe in God, why do you sin?

As the video points out, many (most?) people won't commit "shameful" acts in the presence of loved ones when the loved ones are aware of what's going on. In many cases, they'll be physically incapable of doing it because of a reflexive reaction to the idea. However, these same people often don't feel the same reflexive reaction about committing the same act in front of God.

The example given was masturbation: people who claim to believe in an all-seeing or omnipresent God - and claim to believe that this God disapproves of masturbation - would never think of masturbating in front of their parents or even strangers, but they will still masturbate "in front of God" when they're by themselves.

So... why is this? Why will people who claim to put God first often hold themselves to a higher standard when they're around other people than they will when they're only in the presence of God?

Very interesting question. Fruballs for originality.

It reminds me of the observation made by Anton LaVey;

"On Saturday night I would see men lusting after half-naked girls dancing at the carnival, and on Sunday morning when I was playing the organ for tent-show evangelists at the other end of the carnival lot, I would see these same men sitting in the pews with their wives and children, asking God to forgive them and purge them of carnal desires. And the next Saturday night they'd be back at the carnival or some other place of indulgence."

There are many out there who do conflict with whether or not they should do something before doing it. Most people do when it comes to the common understanding of respect. Have you ever had a chance to take something such as money, so little amount the person it belongs to probably would've never noticed it? Not just laying on the ground, but just siting outside of their billfold.

Similar happens to those who were raised in strictly religious households. On yahoo answers you may pass by a question once or twice a week asking "Should I masterbate" or "Do you think I should stop drinking beer on weekends and go to church instead?" or sometimes even "Do you think I could eat pork just once" etc.

It really all depends on the household rules when growing up. Not a lot of families relate their moral values strictly to religious values. Those that do, then the person wanting to break one of those values they grew up following is likely to question whether or not they should actually do it.

Sure a majority of people adhere to a religious belief system, but not a lot of them actually make it a part of their every day life. If a person grows up a Christian but never grew up with strict, Christian rules, they are not likely going to think twice before breaking those rules; either they are unfamiliar with those rules, or they have broken those rules a number of times before they became familiar with those rules and never had much problems from past experiences with breaking it, so why should they begin to question it now?


TL;DR? At least read the last paragraph, that pretty much sums up the point I'm trying to make.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Of course you're not going to choose to do it infront of her if you had the choice of privacy, But if you take my analogy (she's watching you through camera's, Every day for months/years) then eventually your desire will overcome you and you'll just go for it. That is human nature.

... you assume. I doubt you have anything to back this up but your gut feeling.

Edit: I've worked in workplaces with security cameras for years. Not once have I masturbated at work. Have you?

Mm.. There are camera's everywhere. You're constantly being watched when you go out in public and yet people still commit crimes, have sex, do embarrassing things in public.

Yes, because they forget the cameras are there.

... most of them. A few of them do those things because they know the cameras are there and want to be seen, but they're a bit different from the situation we're talking about.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

For example of what I was saying in the last post in order to make it a bit more clearer;

A person raised in a family that had ground rules based around vegan values is likely to question whether or not he should eat meat before he actually tries it for the first time.

A person raised in a family that had ground rules based around Christian values is likely to question whether or not he should break one of those ground rules before he actually does.

You may ask why there are more Christian families than there are people sinning without guilt - because not all Christian families form household rules based around religious values. I personally believe that there aren't as many strictly, religious families as there are skeptically defined families (in terms of understanding what is OK to do and what isn't).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For example of what I was saying in the last post in order to make it a bit more clearer;

A person raised in a family that had ground rules based around vegan values is likely to question whether or not he should eat meat before he actually tries it for the first time.

A person raised in a family that had ground rules based around Christian values is likely to question whether or not he should break one of those ground rules before he actually does.

You may ask why there are more Christian families than there are people sinning without guilt - because not all Christian families form household rules based around religious values. I personally believe that there aren't as many strictly, religious families as there are skeptically defined families (in terms of understanding what is OK to do and what isn't).

I think this might be missing the point a bit. It's not a matter of disregarding the rules you were brought up with; people can change their minds over time. It's a matter of disregarding the rules that you uphold right now (or rather, the rules that you think God upholds), whatever they are.

 

[Thana]

... you assume. I doubt you have anything to back this up but your gut feeling.

Edit: I've worked in workplaces with security cameras for years. Not once have I masturbated at work. Have you?

Again, You have the choice of the bathroom of just a few hours until you go home. You're not constantly being monitored, Which is what I'm talking about, Because God is omnipresent.

It's not a gut feeling, It's psychology and I've studied Psychology.
It's basic human nature. I don't know why you think it isn't.

Yes, because they forget the cameras are there.

... most of them. A few of them do those things because they know the cameras are there and want to be seen, but they're a bit different from the situation we're talking about.

They forget? Now who's assuming..

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I think this might be missing the point a bit. It's not a matter of disregarding the rules you were brought up with; people can change their minds over time. It's a matter of disregarding the rules that you uphold right now (or rather, the rules that you think God upholds), whatever they are.

Yes. But wouldn't you say that a person not raised holding said beliefs are more likely to be less devout to them/worry about them less? If someone presently believes doing X is wrong, but was not raised to believe it was, they are not going to feel as strongly about it I guess.

Perhaps guilt for doing something you find morally wrong does not come until later on, maybe it takes a while for recently-held moral beliefs to engrave itself in one's personality and daily life.

 

[Pegg]

So this video showed up in my Facebook feed today:

[youtube]iJXxmwLj2Os[/youtube]
TESTING for Faith in God (Proof you do NOT believe) - YouTube

I have some issues with it, both in terms of its tone and its conclusion (because of compartmentalization, I disagree with their inherent assumption that a person's belief system is consistent with itself), but I think it raises an interesting question:

If you really do believe in God, why do you sin?

As the video points out, many (most?) people won't commit "shameful" acts in the presence of loved ones when the loved ones are aware of what's going on. In many cases, they'll be physically incapable of doing it because of a reflexive reaction to the idea. However, these same people often don't feel the same reflexive reaction about committing the same act in front of God.

The example given was masturbation: people who claim to believe in an all-seeing or omnipresent God - and claim to believe that this God disapproves of masturbation - would never think of masturbating in front of their parents or even strangers, but they will still masturbate "in front of God" when they're by themselves.

So... why is this? Why will people who claim to put God first often hold themselves to a higher standard when they're around other people than they will when they're only in the presence of God?

thats a good point, i think it comes down to the strength of a persons faith and the degree of their relationship with God.

Someone might believe in God, but that wont necessarily motivate them to live by his laws and standards. In order to be motivated to obey, more is needed and the bible tells us that 'fear' of God is required in order to obey.

Exodus 20:20 So Moses said to the people: “Do not be afraid, for the true God has come to put you to the test, in order that the fear of him may continue with you so that you may not sin.”

Deuteronomy 5:29 If only they would always have a heart inclined to fear me and to keep all my commandments; then it would go well with them and their sons forever!


The 'fear' of God is that kind of fear we have for our much loved parents.... the fear of displeasing them comes from having a close personal relationship with them. Children who have a bad or distant relationship with their parents tend to be more rebellious and even deliberately do things that they know their parents dont like. A person would not carry out a shameful act in view of his/her parents if they deeply loved them and had a close bond with them though....they would avoid displeasing them.

When it comes to God ,its no different. If we truly see God and have developed a fear of displeasing him, then our motivation to refrain from bad conduct will be stronger then if we simply believe he exists but have no personal relationship with him.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Again, You have the choice of the bathroom of just a few hours until you go home. You're not constantly being monitored, Which is what I'm talking about, Because God is omnipresent.

It's not a gut feeling, It's psychology and I've studied Psychology.
It's basic human nature. I don't know why you think it isn't.



They forget? Now who's assuming..

I'm just speaking from my own personal experience. I've sometimes forgotten about a security camera that's watching me. I've never broken down and masturbated in front of friends.

In any case, at this point, you haven't provided any more support for your position than I have.

 

[dawny0826]

So... why is this? Why will people who claim to put God first often hold themselves to a higher standard when they're around other people than they will when they're only in the presence of God?

Human nature. Though, I doubt that this will be a suitable enough answer, I believe it to be the core issue. Believers are human too and are full of flaws.

Some of us in fact, acknowledge how imperfect we are and this contributes partially to our beliefs and commitment to acknowledge our own sinful behavior and repent of it.

Contrary to what the dude in the video suggests - I am aware of God watching and holding me accountable to my actions. Therefore, when I knowingly sin, I struggle with it. I look internally and question why I'm acting in such a way. This doesn't mean that I'm strong enough to always resist temptation, but, I'm certainly aware that when I do wrong in the presence of God and others, I'm accountable unless I feel remorse for my actions and make efforts to improve.

Most in my peer group who identify as Christian believe this way.

I didn't find anything in the video to be profound or telling. I think this line of questioning is par for the course with many believers. It's part of our spiritual development and growth.