nutshell said:
Then that person's knowledge of hot and cold will be limited to their own experience. There will be certain ends of the spectrum they will not know. Further, their knowledge of hot/cold will be relative. I just moved and everyone around me thinks it's warm, but I think it's hot.
So how can we compare on to the other when they are subjective in the first place? Anyway, this is getting off topic....
He was created with the same potential as all of us - to be like God. He progressed and learned God's plan and choose not to follow it. I don't know if he was created good, but he choose evil. I don't believe we were necessarily created good or evil. In fact, I don't believe God created us from nothing. We already existed as "intelligences" and, IMO, already had some characteristics that set us apart from each other. God organized those intelligences into spirits and began teaching us.
I'm still confused. Did Satan not know that he could never win against God? Or did he know that he could never win and yet still chose to do it anyway?
Eden was a paradise in that there was no death...but there was also no learning. Our goal is to become like God, but how could we do that without progression. Adam and Ever were "punished" because they did something they were told not to do by God. However, they were also told to have children, and we believe they could not do that until after they ate from the tree. You see, God set up contradicting commandments knowing that, eventually, they would break one or the other. It was his "switch" to get His plan in motion. And just because Adam and Eve were punished does not mean they will forever be separated from God. They repented and found grace with God.
And pray tell, how could we progress without learning? And were we meant to exist stagnantly? And God set up the whole fall thing? He set it up - in fact created the Earth to depend on this happening - , and then WE were punished? How is this fair? Why should we worship a god who creates a world that relies on such things, and then punishes us for doing exactly what he intended!
Perhaps God is waiting for all the Spirits he organized to come down and receive a body. Perhaps he's waiting for you...who knows.
perhaps he's waiting for the king of the Potato People to do a dance around a bent mushroom on Midsummer's eve under the full moon. make up any excuse you want, it all still boils down to, "I don't have a clue, but I'm right anyway." I don't buy it for a second.
Well, the scriptures themselves say it is not for man to know the mysteries of God. How do you expect us to argue against our own canon?
Ah, you now claim that "I don't have a clue, but I'm right anyway" is a good excuse because the Bible tells us? of course it would say that, it's the best way to cover itself. But it's no more legit than saying, "I swear I'm telling you the truth."
God has punished Satan. Satan will never receive a physical body and his progression has ended. All of us, by being on earth, surpass Satan in power and progression. What more punishment do you want? He will be shoved away in a quiet corner eventually, but while we live in an imperfect world, he is free to reign.
So now, not only is God able to defeat Satan but hasn't, now all humans are able to defeat Satan and we haven't? And you confuse the issue more. We can defeat Satan, except we can't because we live in an imperfect world? You are saying one thing and then immediately contradicting yourself.
The death of the OT was under a different law than we have today. Part of the His plan is having perfect Justice and perfect Mercy. The OT was under the law of Justice and the NT ushered in the law of Mercy. And, as stated, Satan has already been punished and will be punished further. I expect his fate is worse than death.
Jesus himself said that he did not come to overturn the laws of the Old testament.
Those names are written as we do good or do evil. They may not already be determined and in the book. Besides, I expect God knows exactly how things will turn out.
A God who knows the future raises a lot of problems. namely, how can we have free will if God knows what we are going to do (which I will cover later in this post), and it also means the Earth can't be a test, because God would already know the answer.
See my comments on Justice and Mercy above. As well as my belief Satan has been punished and will be punished again.
God's whipping boy, huh?
The test isn't for God's benefit ---- It's for us (are you passing?). He does know the outcome, IMO. Can you explain what you mean by "And at what point did you go from many devils to one devil?" God requires worship for our own benefit, not his (something about this thing called humility). No, he wasn't lonely.
Firstly, the many devils to one devil comment was towards Peace4all, when he was telling his story about how Satan became Satan. he said, "
And god knew this. so when god decided to create humans and asks the spirits to bow down to Adam they were outraged. To them it was an insult to having to bow down to such an inferior creature. Those spirits that did not bow to Adam soon were called satans." He clearly makes reference to many Satans, yret a little while later he is referring to only one. I was asking how the many became one. Did all the others die, or did they merge into one being or what?
Why is the test for our benefit? What do we get from it? Isn't it like saying, "I'm going to do a test that involves a hammer and gravity. I know that when I drop the hammer gravity will make it fall, but the test isn't for me, it's for the hammer."
Real Sorceror said:
You're assuming I believe in any of that.
Again, I can't limit my debate to your beliefs.
No. You chose to cross the street. It was your decision. I simply knew about it ahead of time. Just becuase I know something does not mean I am controlling you.
Okay, I honestly can't understand how you don't see the conflict here.
So let me try to simplify it.
Let's say there are two actions which I can perform. I can only do one of these action; it's impossible for me to do them both at the same time. For example, let's say these two actions are:
- perform brain surgery
- Fly a hangglider in the thermals over the mountains.
Obviously, I can only do one of these actions at a particular point in time. if I perform brain surgery, I can't also be hanggliding.
But we can represent it as any two actions, which I'll refer to as X and Y, when X and Y are mutually incompatible. If I do X, I can't also be doing Y. if I do Y, I can't also be doing X.
So, the question I am asking is this.....
If God has foreseen that I am going to be doing X at a particular time, am I capable of choosing to do Y instead at that same particular moment in time? it's a simple yes or no question as far as I am concerned.
if God has forseen that I will be performing brain surgery at noon tomorrow, then he must be right, and I must perform brain surgery. but in that case, how am I able to choose to go hanggliding? Simple answer is - I can't, not without causing God's foreknowledge to be wrong. This is impossible, as God (being God) is never wrong.
This is not based on my "interpretation". This is based on scientific evidence. The flood never happened. But as I said before, this for another thread.
And according to the interpretation of biblical literalists, it did happen. As I said, I will not confine my debate to your interpretation, even if it is one I share, and even if it is backed up by evidence. I am here to debate the interpretation of anyone who wants to have a debate with me. In a friendly manner, of course.
And I must disagree. Destroying everything on the planet is an act of extreme immorality and evil. God is incapable of evil.
I agree that it is a terrible act, and that it didn't happen, at least not as presented in the Bible (there is evidence of a large flood in that area, but it wasn't a worldwide flood.
However, I will debate the point with anyone who has a different interpretation.
My point was saying that according to a literal interpretation of the Noah's Flood part of the Bible God is willing to use widespread death as a punishment. Even though you may disagree with that interpretation, I am still allowed to debate that interpretation in regards to people who do take that story literally. As I said before, I will not confine my debate to your interpretation of things.
PetShopBoy88 said:
And, as I've said before, how? If nobody had committed evil before, how would evil be an option? How would anybody know about evil, to be able to choose it? You can't chose something you don't know exists.
I don't see that this is a logical argument. After all, we can ask, "If nobody had ever committed insurance fraud before, how could it even be an option? How would anybody know about insurance fraud, to be able to choose it? You can't chose something you don't know exists."