If there is the devil, why did God create him?

[Katzpur]

Hopefully soon!

Don't hold your breath!

 

[Hacker]

Don't hold your breath!

LOL, Okay!

 

[Katzpur]

God did NOT create Satan, he created Lucifer, his angel of worship. in heaven Lucifer was in essence God's right hand man. the POWER got to his head and he decided to become more powerful than God. HE (Lucifer) took 1/3 of the heavenly host (angels) with him when he left heaven. Lucifer made himself into the devil, or satan if you like.

God allowed Satan domain on earth, but he is coming again to take it back, read revelation, it tells of the hell satan will endure.

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I don't understand your answer. You say that God created Lucifer, not Satan, and then you say that Lucifer made himself into Satan. I take this to mean that you believer Satan is the name by which we know the being who was formerly known as Lucifer. Is that correct? If I am understanding you correctly, I'm at a loss as to why you began your post by saying, "God did NOT create Satan." Isn't that just splitting hairs?

 

[Real Sorceror]

Why would he want to destroy humans if he supposively loves us in hellfire for eternity? If you don't believe this then why even believe in Satan?

four things about my beliefs.
1) Hell is kinda like New Jersey. No fire. Lots of rude people.
2) Even those in Hell will eventually come to live in Heaven.
3) God does not want to destroy people.
4) I believe in various beings and beasts that could fill the role of Satan or might actually be Satan, just under a different name.
5) Sleepy........:thud:

 

[Katzpur]

four things about my beliefs.
1) Hell is kinda like New Jersey. No fire. Lots of rude people.
2) Even those in Hell will eventually come to live in Heaven.
3) God does not want to destroy people.
4) I believe in various beings and beasts that could fill the role of Satan or might actually be Satan, just under a different name.
5) Sleepy........:thud:

Don't go to bed just yet! I have just one question and then you have my permission to call it a night. (I think I'm going to, too.) Do you believe it possible that anybody might not want to live with God? If so, what will be their ultimte destination?

 

[Bishka]

It seems like he enjoys his purpose since he chose to be evil.

At times it would seem so, wouldn't it??

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

I think there has been one answer that nailed the reason for a Satan. Dualism. Got to have a protaganist and an antagonist to make for a decent story. Find me a movie without a bad guy in it and I'll show you a chick flick.

B.

 

[Katzpur]

At times it would seem so, wouldn't it??

I think that, for the present, he is positively having a ball! After all, the game isn't over yet, and he still thinks he's going to win. Sometimes, it appears as if he stands a pretty good chance. It's not going to be until it's all over that he realizes how screwed he is. You probably didn't see The Passion of the Christ, Becky. I'm about the only Latter-day Saint I know who did. But the scene depicting Satan's destruction at the end of the movie was an absolutely perfect portayal of how I believe the end is going to be for him.

 

[Bishka]

I think that, for the present, he is positively having a ball! After all, the game isn't over yet, and he still thinks he's going to win. Sometimes, it appears as if he stands a pretty good chance. It's not going to be until it's all over that he realizes how screwed he is. You probably didn't see The Passion of the Christ, Becky. I'm about the only Latter-day Saint I know who did. But the scene depicting Satan's destruction at the end of the movie was an absolutely perfect portayal of how I believe the end is going to be for him.

i didn't want to see it, because i'm sure the images would be with me for a long time - and i prefer the Lamb of God and the Testaments.

 

[Hacker]

At times it would seem so, wouldn't it??

Yes it does...that's why the whole concept confuses me, but thanks for the insight from the previous posts!

 

[Tiberius]

God* values choice and free-will. He does not like to control anyone's thoughts or actions. Evil is a side affect of free-will. God does not directly create evil, but He also does not limit our choices. If there is a Satan, I don't believe that God intended for him to be evil. Thats just how things turned out.

*not the Biblical God

However, even if we ignore the problem of an all knowing God being incompatible with the idea of free will, we still have the question of a god who didn't know that Satan was going to turn out to be a nasty piece of work.

Unless you want to arbitrarily redefine God to limit his powers in an attempt to solve this problem. But then aren't you just making up a God?

Can 'good' exist without the general concept of 'evil'?

Yes. Saving a person from a burning building does not cease to be an act of goodness just because there have been no evil acts.

Yes, but isn't God powerful enough to cast him out so he no longer exists? Do you think God has this ability to do so? Do you think he's the primary cause of destruction on this earth? IF not, then what's his purpose? Many people attribute his workings to the disasters of the world.

I agree. According to the Bible, God intended for Earth to be a paradise. This means God didn't plan on having Satan around screwing around. Now that he is, God does nothing?

Yes, but God has given even Satan free will.

So if God sees that Satan is going to be mean and nasty to Joe Smith down the street, can Satan choose to be mean and nasty to someone else instead? becky, if you're going to use free will as an answer, i'd really like to know how Free Will can exist alongside a God who knows for a fact what the outcome of our choices are.

People like to over-exagerate and inflate Satan to be the ultimate evil. This is not the case. Satan is a fallen angel, and while that makes him superior to you and me, it means he is nothing compared to almost any minor diety I can think of. Satan does not have the vast, omnipresent power often attributed to him.

And yet God still lets him hang around and screw up those wonderful little Humans that God made so lovingly. if God was prepared to wipe out all of humanity in the flood for some lowly human type sins, why doesn't he also wipe out Satan? Satan, after all, is only one being, and don't tell me his sins are less than what the people of Noah's time were doing.

I believe in a devil (Satan). I don't believe God created him evil, but that he chose to be evil. I believe in the need for both good and evil in the world. If there were no evil, it would be impossible for us to appreciate -- or even fully recognize -- the good. It is only because we can see it in contrast to evil that we are able to value it.

Then on a really hot day, how do you know if it is hot unless there is also a part of you that is cold so you have something to compare it to?

Perhaps, perhaps not, but some of us believe we know God's plan.

In other words, you haven't got a good explanation, so you're resorting to, "I don't know, but I'm still right anyway."

When I say that Satan chose to be evil, what I mean is that He chose to willfully rebel against God and to attempt to exalt himself above God, knowing that his choice was not only self-centered but that it would be destructive to mankind.

Yet if he was created Holy, then surely he would have known that he could never defeat God. What sort of moron starts a fight he knows he can't win?

Oh wait, God hasn't beaten Satan. After all, God still lets satan jump in and screw around with people, destroying the people that God loves and turning those people away from an afterlife in heaven. And God, being as loving and as powerful as he is, just sits back in full knowledge of all this and does bugger all.

See, I think that's an oversimplification. He chose not to be good. How's that work for ya?

Ah, and I don't choose to go outside, I just choose not to stay inside. And I didn't choose to kill that fly, I just choose to not let it remain alive. You're using essentially a double negative. If "not good" isn't the same thing as evil, what is it? If Satan isn't "evil" and satan isn't "good", what is he?

God gave Satan (known pre-mortally as Lucifer) free will. He chose to abuse it.

Again, didn't God know that Satan would abuse it even before Satan was made by God? And god still let it all happen? if so, then God must accept part of the blame!

I don't believe that even Satan chose to "be evil."

He was forced then? By whom? God? if so, what does that say about God? Or was there someone else who is responsible for Satan being evil?

He's been VERY punshied.

A punishment that still lets him commit the crimes he was punished for. What sort of punishment is that? A punishment is designed to STOP the person from commiting the crime again, hence locking people up where they can't kill, or fining them so repeating the offence becomes unprofitable.

Why then would God punish Satan in such a way that he is still allowed to do horrible things to us poor Humans? is God really that poor a jailkeeper?

He was cast out of His presence forever. He and his followers would never, ever have the opportunity to return to God.

And I bet Satan's bawling his eyes out about it as well. Seems to me being away from God is exactly what he wants.

Just out of curiosity, what would sound like punishment to you (for Satan, I mean)?

Hmmm.... How about destroying his sorry ***, or at the very least, imprisoning him somewhere so he can't screw around with the Humans?

God values choice and freedom

Again, free will and an all knowing God. How do we have the freedom to choose if God always knows what we will choose?

Ah, but heres the rub. What is God, first and foremost: A Creator or a Destroyer?

He destroyed just about the whole Earth in the flood, didn't he?

Okay, you lost me. Are you saying that the worse punishment God could possibly have inflicted upon Satan would have been for Him to cause Satan to cease to exist? How is that punishment? Doesn't there need to be awareness in order for punishment to be effective?

Oh, maybe you should write to the US government, tell them this and maybe they'll get rid of the death penalty.

Oh, and how many times in the Bible did God use death as a punishment? it's obviously a perfectly legit punishment as far as God is concerned, so who are you to question him?

He could. But I believe God has a concsience. He has morals.
Its not a matter of could He do it. Its a matter of is it right or wrong to utterly destroy His creation.

Again, I point you in the direction of Noah's Flood.

According to my belief, and to the best of my understanding, there will come a time when God will bring Satan's power to a screeching halt. His influence over human beings will be cut off completely and he will spend eternity in profound misery. While I will agree with you that, for now at least, Satan has no desire whatsoever to be with God, I see him as eventually recognizing that he has cast his eternal destiny in concrete and that it's not going to be a pleasant one.

Ah, so God will do it, he just hasn't got around to it yet.

What's the almighty waiting for?

let me guess - it's a part of God's plan and we aren't meant to understand it, or something like that.

Interesting how that answer is always pulled out when no other answer can be thought of.

God did NOT create Satan, he created Lucifer, his angel of worship. in heaven Lucifer was in essence God's right hand man. the POWER got to his head and he decided to become more powerful than God. HE (Lucifer) took 1/3 of the heavenly host (angels) with him when he left heaven. Lucifer made himself into the devil, or satan if you like.

God allowed Satan domain on earth, but he is coming again to take it back, read revelation, it tells of the hell satan will endure.

Any angel with such a priveledged position surely would have known there was no chance he could triumph, and yet Satan did it anyway? Does God routinely choose morons as his right hand men?

Again, the question of why God waited and allowed such pain and suffering for the people who live before the time of God's reclamation of the Earth....

I unerstand that if we never experienced suffering then we would not know the joy of being free from suffering.

What about in the Paradise of the Garden of Eden? Was there suffering there? Or were we meant to be in paradise but not be able to recognise it for the paradise it was? That's a bit mean of God, doncha think?

And carried on, the indicates that we were meant to fall, so we could truly understand the good things. Why then did God punish us for doing what he apparently meant us to do the whole time?

I think there has been one answer that nailed the reason for a Satan. Dualism. Got to have a protaganist and an antagonist to make for a decent story. Find me a movie without a bad guy in it and I'll show you a chick flick.

The Adventures of Milo and Otis.

 

[lilithu]

He was forced then? By whom? God? if so, what does that say about God? Or was there someone else who is responsible for Satan being evil?

Did you even read the rest of what I wrote or did you just react to the first line, which you completely misunderstood. I am not contesting that he made a choice. I am contesting that he chose to be evil.

What about in the Paradise of the Garden of Eden? Was there suffering there? Or were we meant to be in paradise but not be able to recognise it for the paradise it was? That's a bit mean of God, doncha think?

I said, we would not know the JOY of being free from suffering. There was no suffering the in the garden and one could argue that it was taken for granted.


There exists a thing called nuance.

 

[Tiberius]

let's take a look at the enitrety of what you said then.

I don't believe that even Satan chose to "be evil." That makes it too easy to dismiss, cause we can just look at that and say "Well I would never choose to be evil." Satan made choices contrary to God's will and the consequences of his actions may have been evil. Anyone of us could do that. And it may be the case that when faced with those consequences, instead of repenting he made choices even further contrary, which led to further evil. Anyone of us could do that.

makes him sound like a poor mixed up guy who just happened to fall into the wrong crowd. Hold an intervention, he'll see the error of his ways.

Sounds like you are basically saying, "It wasn't really his fault, he didn't mean for it to happen..."

kinda contradicts everything I ever learnt about the guy.....

Anyway, what does what we Humans would choose have to do with what Satan did? Why do you limit Satan to Human choices and motivations? Sure you can say you wouldn't choose to be evil, but how can you be so sure the same applies to the being that was once the right hand man of God?

 

[lilithu]

let's take a look at the enitrety of what you said then.



makes him sound like a poor mixed up guy who just happened to fall into the wrong crowd. Hold an intervention, he'll see the error of his ways.

Sounds like you are basically saying, "It wasn't really his fault, he didn't mean for it to happen..."

kinda contradicts everything I ever learnt about the guy.....

Anyway, what does what we Humans would choose have to do with what Satan did? Why do you limit Satan to Human choices and motivations?

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. :banghead3 Of course he is responsible for his own actions. I'm saying literally what I am saying: he did not choose to BE EVIL. Geeze louise, I don't think it's that hard a concept to understand.

No one that I know (perhaps you have experienced differently) wakes up one morning and says, "I've decided that from now on I'm going to be evil." Instead, what we do is we decide that it's ok (for whatever reason we use as justification) to do something that other people might perceive as an evil act. We decide that we're going to rob a bank, because we really need the money and the system has been screwing us anyway. We decide that we're going to invade another country because if we don't do it to them first, they're going to do it to us sooner or later. We decide that we're going to kill someone because of their ethnicity because someone of the same ethnicity killed our son. etc etc No one says "I'm going to be evil." Very few people perceive what they do as evil. Hitler did not think that what he did was evil. We all think we have reasons/justifications. Or the occasional psychopath descides that he or she doesn't need a justification. Even there, they're not choosing to "be evil." They are choosing to not care about anyone else, the consequences of which, one can rightly argue are evil.

Satan, if the Christian story is to be believed, decided that he was tired of God ruling everything and felt that he could rule just as well as God. He decided that he was going to rebell. He did not decide to "be evil." Now, many Christians will argue that any decision contrary to God's will is by definition evil. That's a semantic argument. What I am saying is that he did not wake up one morning and say, "I've decided that from now on I'm going to be the Prince of Darkness." He decided that he wanted to be God, and in doing so, made actions and subsequent decisions that eventually led to him being what he is now.

Do you guys honestly think that it was one single choice?

And as I said, it's too easy to write Satan off like that. To assume that he's the source of evil and we would never do that (except by his temptation, so it's still all his fault). In truth, any one of us can make choices that lead to suffering and evil. We may not recognize it when we do it. We think we have a justification. And yes, we are still responsible for our choices even if we manage to deceive ourselves.

 

[michel]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. :banghead3 Of course he is responsible for his own actions. I'm saying literally what I am saying: he did not choose to BE EVIL. Geeze louise, I don't think it's that hard a concept to understand.

No one that I know (perhaps you have experienced differently) wakes up one morning and says, "I've decided that from now on I'm going to be evil." Instead, what we do is we decide that it's ok (for whatever reason we use as justification) to do something that other people might perceive as an evil act. We decide that we're going to rob a bank, because we really need the money and the system has been screwing us anyway. We decide that we're going to invade another country because if we don't do it to them first, they're going to do it to us sooner or later. We decide that we're going to kill someone because of their ethnicity because someone of the same ethnicity killed our son. etc etc No one says "I'm going to be evil." Very few people perceive what they do as evil. Hitler did not think that what he did was evil. We all think we have reasons/justifications. Or the occasional psychopath descides that he or she doesn't need a justification. Even there, they're not choosing to "be evil." They are choosing to not care about anyone else, the consequences of which, one can rightly argue are evil.

Satan, if the Christian story is to be believed, decided that he was tired of God ruling everything and felt that he could rule just as well as God. He decided that he was going to rebell. He did not decide to "be evil." Now, many Christians will argue that any decision contrary to God's will is by definition evil. That's a semantic argument. What I am saying is that he did not wake up one morning and say, "I've decided that from now on I'm going to be the Prince of Darkness." He decided that he wanted to be God, and in doing so, made actions and subsequent decisions that eventually led to him being what he is now.

Do you guys honestly think that it was one single choice?

And as I said, it's too easy to write Satan off like that. To assume that he's the source of evil and we would never do that (except by his temptation, so it's still all his fault). In truth, any one of us can make choices that lead to suffering and evil. We may not recognize it when we do it. We think we have a justification. And yes, we are still responsible for our choices even if we manage to deceive ourselves.

Good post!:clap

Take a more 'modern' example; - Hitler.

When he was 5 years old, did he wake up one morning, and think, "Right, from this day on, I will be evil " ?

Surely, he grew into his "evilness" as he went on, the more evil he became (almost like a snowball effect) - although some could argue that his mental condition might has exacerbated his evil behavior.
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Just as when Walmart - it is the store you guys hate so much? - I am sure, wasn't started with the decision to undercut the opposition violently, to abuse the staff, to penny pinch.

Maybe the founder was an honest man, who wanted to make an honest living ?........

 

[Real Sorceror]

Don't go to bed just yet! I have just one question and then you have my permission to call it a night. (I think I'm going to, too.) Do you believe it possible that anybody might not want to live with God? If so, what will be their ultimte destination?

I believe in 9 Hells and 7 Heavens. They are all different dimensions, but you can visualize them stacked on top of eachother, with the Earth in the middle. As you go up things get closer to God, as you go down they get farther away. If someone really and truely didn't want to live with God, they'd go to the 9th Hell. Even after that, though, they still have the chance to leave. And since eternity is forever....well I just can't concieve of a being that hardcore.

 

[BFD_Zayl]

there needs to be a balance between all things, if there was only "good" in the world, there would be a small faction of that "good" that did things differently, and everyone else would percieve that difference as "evil" so really where there is good, there is evil.

 

[Katzpur]

Then on a really hot day, how do you know if it is hot unless there is also a part of you that is cold so you have something to compare it to?

No. I have a memory. I have experienced cold, and am therefore able to recognize that heat is its opposite. Anything beyond that is simply a physical response to stimuli.

Yet if he was created Holy, then surely he would have known that he could never defeat God. What sort of moron starts a fight he knows he can't win?

Let's stick with what I actually said. Where did I say that God created Satan/Lucifer as "Holy"?

If Satan isn't "evil" and satan isn't "good", what is he?

Again, you're misquoting me. I never said that Satan isn't evil. I said precisely the opposite.

Again, didn't God know that Satan would abuse it even before Satan was made by God? And god still let it all happen? if so, then God must accept part of the blame!

God had a purpose in allowing evil to exist alongside good. Therefore, he gets credit, not blame.

And I bet Satan's bawling his eyes out about it as well. Seems to me being away from God is exactly what he wants.

I bet he's having himself a hell of a good time right now. But it's not over yet.

Hmmm.... How about destroying his sorry ***, or at the very least, imprisoning him somewhere so he can't screw around with the Humans?

He will when He's ready. He doesn't operate according to your timetable.

Oh, maybe you should write to the US government, tell them this and maybe they'll get rid of the death penalty.

Does this have anything to do with the topic?

Oh, and how many times in the Bible did God use death as a punishment? it's obviously a perfectly legit punishment as far as God is concerned, so who are you to question him?

Since when did I question Him? If anybody's questioning Him, it's you. Given the fact that you don't even believe in Him, there is about as much point in you questioning Him as there is in me questioning the tooth fairy. Why do you bother?

 

[Katzpur]

I believe in 9 Hells and 7 Heavens. They are all different dimensions, but you can visualize them stacked on top of eachother, with the Earth in the middle. As you go up things get closer to God, as you go down they get farther away. If someone really and truely didn't want to live with God, they'd go to the 9th Hell. Even after that, though, they still have the chance to leave. And since eternity is forever....well I just can't concieve of a being that hardcore.

That is really interesting. With a certain amount of stretching, it corresponds roughly to my belief.

 

[Random]

If there is the devil, why did God create him? I am not sure which religions believe in a personal devil but know that Islam and Christianity do. Also the bible says that God creates evil, why would he allow for such wickedness to present in this world if he loves mankind? Why not destroy this devil? Is he not powerful enough to rid the world of this devil on his own?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

This is the same as the philosophical Problem of Evil: if God is omniscient, knowing therefore that Lucifer would turn on Him and Humanity would fall into sin, why procede as planned?

There is no reasoned rationale to it, seemingly, unless it is part of our intended life experience as dictated by God's ordinance. When faced with this problem there are few options: either abandon faith and reject Him, or continue to believe despite or because of the intuited end of the path. I chose the latter, but everyone must decide according to their own capacities.