If the Jewish Messiah has already come….

[Rival]

I believe I have the Paraclete but Muslims do not.

Right so let me get this straight:

You believe God inspired a Book, the Qu'an, which he gave to a people who couldn't interpret or understand it properly in their native language for 1400 years, then you come along, can't speak Arabic, and magically interpret it correctly for everyone?

Okay.

 

[1robin]

I most closely associate myself with the Baptist view that a person having the Holy Spirit as guide will understand the message of Jesus and pretty much everything else as well.

BTW based on some recent posts about you being a Baha'i I assumed you were proposing that the scriptures of other faiths are true. Is that what you believe, if not what do you believe along those lines?

 

[Tumah]

The text does not say that, It says "Jesus Allah" and as I understand it the "is" is understood so that in English it would read Jesus is Allah. The merely or but is not in the text at all and is a case of adding one's own idea's to God's word.

Actually if you are referring to the text you quoted that was in the same color as the font you chose it doesn't. It says

إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ
But the messiah Jesus son [of] Mary messenger [of] All-h.
​

As you can see, there are quite a few words in between the two.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thank you Tumah for your thorough exposition considering why you believe Hezekiah fulfils Isaiah 9:6-7. I do not doubt for one moment the depth of your knowledge of history of this period and of the Hebrew Bible. In regards the history I do not question anything you say. But when you start making connections with other texts to make the Eternal temporal I struggle. So I have read arguments from other Jewish thinkers that view it differently.

Why do you start in the middle of a chapter? If you take it out of its context, you can make anything say whatever you want.

We both know that isn't true. Isaiah is a book unsurpassed in the Hebrew Bible and has strong Messianic themes throughout. The link you sent me earlier in this thread refers to at least 15 different chapters interwoven throughout the entire book.

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

The Messianic verses, like the history is not organised in a systematic, chronological order. It is a book of profound spiritual insight and so while the historic context is important, the transcendent message is timeless.

Translated from the Hebrew bible the key verse reads:
"That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this."

There is a difference between the 'plain meaning' of the verse and the 'literal meaning' of it. The plain meaning of a passage may be metaphorical if the literal meaning is not a logical interpretation.

In this instance the literal meaning of an Eternal King, Kingdom, and government makes most sense. Efforts to make this metaphorical in regards to a very temporal ruler that was part of a lineage of kings that ended long ago doesn't fit so well.

However, I can see why you would think that way so thank you for your post. This subject has long been debated. When I see arguments against either Hezekiah or Christ in regards to Isaiah 9 they make sense. When I see arguments to the contrary they appear convoluted. If the standard is the arguments the Jews and Christians use to oppose each others views, the same arguments expose weakness for their respective contrary positions. I will not labour the point.

 

[arthra]

If the Jewish Messiah has already come why hasn’t he made himself known? If the Messiah has made himself known, please explain how. Nowhere in Jewish or Christian scripture does it say he will be known by proxy. What I mean by “proxy” is one who speaks for another.

I'm sure you have read the verse of scripture found in Malachi 4:5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord"

A few years ago I was invited to speak at a United Church of Christ Convention in San Bernardino California. I was asked to say a few words... I told them I had been on pilgrimage to the Holy Land and visited Mount Carmel which overlooks the city of Haifa. While there I discovered there were at least two sites on Mount Carmel which were reported to be the Cave of Elijah... I visited both sites. One site near the crest of the mount Carmel was on the grounds of the Carmelite headquarters. The other was located on the west side of Mount Carmel near the base and was believed by many Jews to be the cave of Elijah. I discovered there was somewhere around Mount Carmel which was believed by many Muslims to be the Cave of Elijah.

What I told the Convention was that when Elijah returns he will visit the Muslim site of his cave on Friday... on the Sabbath he'll visit the Jewish site and on Sunday he'll visit the Christian site of his cave.

Well everyone had a laugh but in all seriousness as a Baha'i there's a sense in which we believe the spirit of Elijah has already returned... first in the person of John the Baptist... next in the person of His Holiness Siyyid Ali Muhammad the Bab... whose remains are actually interred on the slopes of Mount Carmel in the Shrine of the Bab.

 

[Tumah]

Thank you Tumah for your thorough exposition considering why you believe Hezekiah fulfils Isaiah 9:6-7. I do not doubt for one moment the depth of your knowledge of history of this period and of the Hebrew Bible. In regards the history I do not question anything you say. But when you start making connections with other texts to make the Eternal temporal I struggle. So I have read arguments from other Jewish thinkers that view it differently.

Since your keeping your cards to your chest, there's not much to respond to. I have however, taken my response to you from the most mainstream Jewish commentaries. And while there is some minor variance between them, none of them interpret this passage as a messianic prophecy. For obvious reasons. The passages both before and after are speaking about the same subject. There's no compelling reason to assume this passage is not as well.

We both know that isn't true.

No, we both definitely do not know that isn't true. I have seen Christians do it numerous times for the simple reason that it matched what the NT describes. Which of course is not a reason at all.

Assume no religious text has ever been written after Nehemiah. You've never heard of anyone from Jesus to the Bab or whomever. Now how do you interpret this passage?

Isaiah is a book unsurpassed in the Hebrew Bible and has strong Messianic themes throughout. The link you sent me earlier in this thread refers to at least 15 different chapters interwoven throughout the entire book.

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

The Messianic verses, like the history is not organised in a systematic, chronological order. It is a book of profound spiritual insight and so while the historic context is important, the transcendent message is timeless.

None of these are reasons to interpret the passage any other way than I have. Yes there are some messianic prophecies throughout the book. That doesn't mean that every passage should be understood to be one. There is context in the book. Choosing to ignore that, in favor of reinterpreting passages to refer to figures not consistent with the context, is self-serving.

Translated from the Hebrew bible the key verse reads:
"That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this."

In this instance the literal meaning of an Eternal King, Kingdom, and government makes most sense. Efforts to make this metaphorical in regards to a very temporal ruler that was part of a lineage of kings that ended long ago doesn't fit so well.

I haven't interpreted this as a metaphor. What I've done is - based on the context the passage is in, understood the intent of the author in the selection of words that he's used as being broader than its more common usage. What you've done is, seen key words and then interpreted the passage outside of its context.

My interpretation allows for continuous flow of thought - bearing in mind that chapter breaks are only about a thousand years old. And it also takes into account flowery words and poetic license. Quite common throughout even this passage and the whole book.
You're interpretation causes abrupt changes of topic and inconsistent interpretations of poetic phraseology.

At the very least, you should be able to point to other clear messianic prophecies and show how lacking any clear cut from the previous context, similarly need to be cut out.

As to what I assume are the two words you have a problem with.
ולשלום - and to/for peace
אין - there is not
קץ - end

Strong's H7093
קץ

1. end
a. end, at the end of (of time)
b. end (of space)

So you see, for the word, "end" it doesn't require a leap of faith to understand it as referring to the borders.

מעתה - from now
ועד - and until
עולם - forever

Let's compare that with 1 Sam. 1:22 where Hannah speaks about Samuel.

וישב - and he shall sit/dwell
שם - there
עד - until
עולם - forever

As far as I can tell, you have two choices:
To admit that the word "forever" doesn't necessarily mean "forever".
Or to believe that Hannah actually thought Samuel would live forever in Shiloh or the Tabernacle.

However, I can see why you would think that way so thank you for your post. This subject has long been debated. When I see arguments against either Hezekiah or Christ in regards to Isaiah 9 they make sense. When I see arguments to the contrary they appear convoluted. If the standard is the arguments the Jews and Christians use to oppose each others views, the same arguments expose weakness for their respective contrary positions. I will not labour the point.

That's not saying much. You can convince me in any direction about the nature of a neutrino because frankly I have no in-depth knowledge of it either. Its very easy to have a superficial understanding of the passage and find argument for and against compelling. Especially when its in the interest of your religious beliefs.

 

[Muffled]

Actually if you are referring to the text you quoted that was in the same color as the font you chose it doesn't. It says

إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ
But the messiah Jesus son [of] Mary messenger [of] All-h.
​

As you can see, there are quite a few words in between the two.

Please excuse me, I believe I was thinking of a different verse. The one I saw read right to left and I notice yours reads left to right. At any rate the Jesus and Allah were right beside each other in the Arabic text. The authors inserted a comma but I consider that commentary.

At any rate although God sends messengers, He is also a messenger in that He is delivering a message. When God sends Gabriel to give Mohammed a message, the first messenger is God , the second Gabriel and the third Mohammed.

 

[Tumah]

Please excuse me, I believe I was thinking of a different verse. The one I saw read right to left and I notice yours reads left to right. At any rate the Jesus and Allah were right beside each other in the Arabic text. The authors inserted a comma but I consider that commentary.

The text I quoted - as all Arabic, reads right to left. You can see this through the color-coding of the words I've provided.
Maybe you can provide the verse you had actually read.

At any rate although God sends messengers, He is also a messenger in that He is delivering a message. When God sends Gabriel to give Mohammed a message, the first messenger is God , the second Gabriel and the third Mohammed.

A messenger is the person who brings a message, not the one who creates a message.

 

[Muffled]

The text I quoted - as all Arabic, reads right to left. You can see this through the color-coding of the words I've provided.
Maybe you can provide the verse you had actually read.


A messenger is the person who brings a message, not the one who creates a message.

I don't believe I have access to it anymore.

Is this normal. I believe it is for Hebrew but the book I had on Arabic didn't mention it.

I believe the messages I have provided on this thread, I also created.

 

[Tumah]

I don't believe I have access to it anymore.

Well that's too bad.

Is this normal. I believe it is for Hebrew but the book I had on Arabic didn't mention it.

Yes. I believe its a common feature of Semitic languages.

I believe the messages I have provided on this thread, I also created.

Did you formulate the messages or create them?

 

[roger1440]

I believe you are deceiving yourself because you are responding to things I have said.

You still haven't explained the virgin prophecy.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Since your keeping your cards to your chest, there's not much to respond to. I have however, taken my response to you from the most mainstream Jewish commentaries. And while there is some minor variance between them, none of them interpret this passage as a messianic prophecy.

I had read commentaries from Jewish Christians. The ones that argued against Hezekiah being the fulfilment of these prophecies certainly resonated. That doesn't mean to say they are correct.

I had also wondered about where your views stood in regards to the mainstream so thank you for clarifying that.

No, we both definitely do not know that isn't true. I have seen Christians do it numerous times for the simple reason that it matched what the NT describes. Which of course is not a reason at all.

We know it doesn't refer to Stalin or Hitler. It doesn't refer to the myriad of people you and I come into contact in our day to day life. Shall I go on? We could make arguments for such people being a fulfilment of Isaiah 9:6-7 but no one is going to take us very seriously.

There are four serious contenders that I can see that should be considered:
(1) Hezekiah as you believe
(2) Jesus the Christ
(3) The messiah that either or both the Jews and Christians await
(4) Either two or all of the above

I'm starting to wonder if its all three. Then again I see the verses inspired by God as having many intrinsic spiritual truths, not just the most obvious one.

Assume no religious text has ever been written after Nehemiah. You've never heard of anyone from Jesus to the Bab or whomever. Now how do you interpret this passage?

We need to be real about this. It applies to the Jews, just as much as it does to the Christians or Baha'is. I have grown up with Christianity as my ancestors have. As one who became a Baha'i 25+ years ago I view the world through the lens of Baha'u'llah's revelation just as much as the Jews view the world through a Mosaic outlook. It would be as difficult for me to imagine a world without Christ as it would be for you to have a world without Moses. The world we live in would be unimaginably different without the profound influence both have exerted.

Yes there are some messianic prophecies throughout the book.

According to your reference at least 15 out of the 66 chapters. As I read I see more.

That doesn't mean that every passage should be understood to be one.

I never said it did.

There is context in the book.

Agreed

Choosing to ignore that, in favor of reinterpreting passages to refer to figures not consistent with the context, is self-serving.

So what's the context of the other messianic prophecies? Is there an assumption of superiority in the self-serving comment?

I haven't interpreted this as a metaphor. What I've done is - based on the context the passage is in, understood the intent of the author in the selection of words that he's used as being broader than its more common usage. What you've done is, seen key words and then interpreted the passage outside of its context.

My interpretation allows for continuous flow of thought - bearing in mind that chapter breaks are only about a thousand years old. And it also takes into account flowery words and poetic license. Quite common throughout even this passage and the whole book.
You're interpretation causes abrupt changes of topic and inconsistent interpretations of poetic phraseology.

At the very least, you should be able to point to other clear messianic prophecies and show how lacking any clear cut from the previous context, similarly need to be cut out.

I'm not certain anyone can authoritatively interpret the intent of Isaiah. It is a peerless and unprecedented work of literature. It was written over 2,500 years ago. As the book is prophetic are we not agreed the inspiration has come from God? The history appears a template upon which a vision is provided for the future. Do you really believe you can fully see the intent of the author? To do that is to see into the mind of God.

Its easy to see why you think I have interpreted the passage out of context. The question is, in a prophetic book with such a profound outpouring of spirit, with so many other messianic verses, is it really that unreasonable to see these verses as messianic despite the context.

Let's compare that with 1 Sam. 1:22 where Hannah speaks about Samuel.

Lets look at this verse that refers to Samuel:
"But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide for ever."
To me it speaks of the spiritual, not physical reality of Samuel. He will have the heavenly qualities that transcends this limited physical reality and will dwell in the realm of God forever. The author appears to be talking about the soul of Samuel, not the physical body.

The same could certainly be applied to Hezekiah. However the story and context could also be used to convey a prophetic message. It could easily be both.

That's not saying much. You can convince me in any direction about the nature of a neutrino because frankly I have no in-depth knowledge of it either.

The Eternal Covenant of God is of concern for everybody not just the academics and scholars. The relationship between the individual and institutions of religion, government, as well as healing have changed profoundly. No longer can the religious elites so easily tell their ever compliant and uneducated followers how they should think and behave. The foundations of religion have been shaken to the core for good reason. We are no longer bound by our narrow cultural norms. People are more educated, investigating the reality of life, and looking at religion. There is now choice and coercion, subtle or otherwise has become less accepted. Humility, patience, and all those virtues in Psalms are just as important for those investigating the truth as for successful living.

Its very easy to have a superficial understanding of the passage and find argument for and against compelling.

So lets explore the issues as best we can. Human knowledge is finite after all, and what we seek is a glimpse into the infinite.

 

[Muffled]

Well that's too bad.


Yes. I believe its a common feature of Semitic languages.


Did you formulate the messages or create them?

I believe I create them. I do not have a formula for my messages.

 

[Muffled]

You still haven't explained the virgin prophecy.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

I thought it was pretty self explainable but I believe the sign of a virgin birth announces the presence of God in physical form.

 

[viole]

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

I thought it was pretty self explainable but I believe the sign of a virgin birth announces the presence of God in physical form.

I believe that the "virgin" part was a translation error.

And by the way, who is immanuel?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Tumah]

I had read commentaries from Jewish Christians. The ones that argued against Hezekiah being the fulfilment of these prophecies certainly resonated. That doesn't mean to say they are correct.

I had also wondered about where your views stood in regards to the mainstream so thank you for clarifying that.

Jewish Christians. Not quite what anyone would call a "Jewish commentary".

We know it doesn't refer to Stalin or Hitler. It doesn't refer to the myriad of people you and I come into contact in our day to day life. Shall I go on? We could make arguments for such people being a fulfilment of Isaiah 9:6-7 but no one is going to take us very seriously.

How do you know? How do you know it doesn't refer to Stalin or Hitler? Here you go:

v1. The German nation that walked in darkness (caused by non-Aryans) saw a great light! Those that dwelled in the land of the shadow of death (where Jews were taking over the country) - light shined on them!

v2. You have multiplied the German nation! You've increased the joy! They were joyful before you (when they harvest the Jews) like the joy of the harvest. (when they took the property of the Jews, their happiness) was as joyful as people splitting booty!

v3. Because the yoke of the German nation's burden was removed (through Judenrein)...!

v4 Sounds of war, bloody garments of WW II! Lots of burning...

v5. The child Hitler was born to us! The governance of the Aryans was on his shoulders! He was a great adviser (when he convinced almost an entire nation to follow him)! He was mighty (through his army)! He taught the Aryans eternal principle (just like the father who who instructs his son Pro. 1:8) of Aryan supremacy and by virtue of that became their eternal father! He is the officer that will lead the Aryans to a peaceful world!

v6 The Third Reich would increase the governance of the Aryans and create a peaceful society. Hitler would sit on the "throne of David" a metaphor for the dictatorship that he would establish based on the true and righteous principles of Aryan supremacy. He was divinely appointed to this!

If the shoe fits.

There are four serious contenders that I can see that should be considered:
(1) Hezekiah as you believe
(2) Jesus the Christ
(3) The messiah that either or both the Jews and Christians await
(4) Either two or all of the above

I'm starting to wonder if its all three. Then again I see the verses inspired by God as having many intrinsic spiritual truths, not just the most obvious one.

I'm not sure if "I see it that way" is a valid response. Not any more than Christian's "the spirit of god told me".

We need to be real about this. It applies to the Jews, just as much as it does to the Christians or Baha'is. I have grown up with Christianity as my ancestors have. As one who became a Baha'i 25+ years ago I view the world through the lens of Baha'u'llah's revelation just as much as the Jews view the world through a Mosaic outlook. It would be as difficult for me to imagine a world without Christ as it would be for you to have a world without Moses. The world we live in would be unimaginably different without the profound influence both have exerted.

That's a cop out. We're talking about a critical review of the text. If you can't help but read whatever you like into the text, instead of trying to figure out what the text is telling you, you shouldn't be getting near any important books.

According to your reference at least 15 out of the 66 chapters. As I read I see more.

That may be related to the problem mentioned above.

So what's the context of the other messianic prophecies? Is there an assumption of superiority in the self-serving comment?



I'm not certain anyone can authoritatively interpret the intent of Isaiah. It is a peerless and unprecedented work of literature. It was written over 2,500 years ago. As the book is prophetic are we not agreed the inspiration has come from God? The history appears a template upon which a vision is provided for the future. Do you really believe you can fully see the intent of the author? To do that is to see into the mind of God.

Its easy to see why you think I have interpreted the passage out of context. The question is, in a prophetic book with such a profound outpouring of spirit, with so many other messianic verses, is it really that unreasonable to see these verses as messianic despite the context.



Lets look at this verse that refers to Samuel:
"But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide for ever."
To me it speaks of the spiritual, not physical reality of Samuel. He will have the heavenly qualities that transcends this limited physical reality and will dwell in the realm of God forever. The author appears to be talking about the soul of Samuel, not the physical body.

The same could certainly be applied to Hezekiah. However the story and context could also be used to convey a prophetic message. It could easily be both.



The Eternal Covenant of God is of concern for everybody not just the academics and scholars. The relationship between the individual and institutions of religion, government, as well as healing have changed profoundly. No longer can the religious elites so easily tell their ever compliant and uneducated followers how they should think and behave. The foundations of religion have been shaken to the core for good reason. We are no longer bound by our narrow cultural norms. People are more educated, investigating the reality of life, and looking at religion. There is now choice and coercion, subtle or otherwise has become less accepted. Humility, patience, and all those virtues in Psalms are just as important for those investigating the truth as for successful living.



So lets explore the issues as best we can. Human knowledge is finite after all, and what we seek is a glimpse into the infinite.[/QUOTE]

 

[Tumah]

I believe I create them. I do not have a formula for my messages.

What I mean to say is, are you conveying messages of your Christian belief or are you fabricating your own ideas and conveying them?

 

[roger1440]

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

I thought it was pretty self explainable but I believe the sign of a virgin birth announces the presence of God in physical form.

I don’t claim to be all that bright. Please explain to me how a virgin birth is a sign for King Ahaz. King Ahaz was dead over 700 years by the time Jesus was born.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thank you for you post

From the clash of differing opinions comes the spark of truth.

If the shoe fits.

Lets wrap this up and see what shoe really fits!

Hezekiah
- 13th King of Judah and reigned for 29 years. His lineage of kingship would only last another 100 years as Judea would eventually fall.
- Righteous King
- Witnessed the destruction of the kingdom of Israel
- Resisted siege of Jerusalem by Assyrians.
- Unlike his ungodly father Ahaz and son Manasseh, who he respectively succeeded and preceded in regards to Kingship he enacted worship of Yahweh and prohibited Idol worship
-Kingship under the shadow of the mighty King David who ruled over the United Kingdom and whose immediate descendants Saul and Solomon were recognised outstanding kings.

Jesus the Christ
- Jewish religious leader who became the central figure in Christianity.
- Despite teaching for only 3 ½ years and crucified to death by His own people nearly 2000 years ago His message spread far and wide. His religion is the most widespread on the planet with 2.2 billion adherents worldwide (cf 14,000,000 Judaism). Recognised to be awaited Messiah in the Hebrew Bible by His followers. Is considered by Islam (1.6 billion adherents) as being one of God’s important prophets.
- "Son of God"
- Questionable descent through male lineage to any physical kings and no known children.
- Earthly parents humble Godly people.

That's a cop out. We're talking about a critical review of the text.

OK then. Lets consider each in light of Isaiah 9:7

"That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this."

"That the government may be increased"
Hezekiah - Temporal King of Judea, King of Divided Kingdom that will end within 100 years. Yet to be restored after over 2,500 years.
Christ - No actual government but spiritual inspiration of more governments that any other person on earth during known history.

"and of peace there be no end"
Hezekiah - Threat of conquest throughout temporal kingship. Resisted invasion from Assyrians. This only postponed the inevitable and his people would eventually be conquered, exiled, and be gathered together again but under the rule of the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and finally Romans until being dispersed for over 1,800 years. Despite being returned to their "Promised Land" peace remains as elusive as ever.

Jesus - The largest empire in known history the British empire was Christian.
List of largest empires - Wikipedia

Peace however has always been a double edged sword.
The majority of the most peaceful countries on earth have Christianity as their main religion.
Global Peace Index - Wikipedia
Note Israel's low ranking
Although Christianity is in decline in the West it continues to flourish in many other parts of the world.

"Upon the throne of David"
Hezekiah - Under the shadow of King David and a physical descendant through recognised male lineage

Jesus - Not a physical King and although His followers claim descent from the root of Jesse, His claims of "Son of God" bring this into question.
However arguably a spiritual descendant from King David and rules upon a spiritual Throne at the right hand side of HIs Heavenly Father.

"and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever."
As formerly mentioned:
Hezekiah - Temporal King of Judea, King of Divided Kingdom that will end within 100 years. Yet to be restored after over 2,500 years.

Christ - No actual government but spiritual inspiration of more governments that any other person on earth during known history. The highest ideals have always been to rule with justice and righteousness but like Judea's relapses into idol worship, Christian inspired government have often fallen tragically short. However the movement continues to flourish and exert spiritual vitality.

"The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this."

The facts speak for themselves. Hezekiah does not come remotely close to fulfilling this prophecy and Jesus the Christ partially fulfils it. At best the verses refer to Hezekiah in an allegorical manner to emphasise a Messianic prophecy but this is unlikely given that One is Peerless and Incomparable, the other mortal and temporal. Only the Messiah awaited by both Jews and Christians can completely fulfil this prophecy.

 

[Tumah]

Thank you for you post

From the clash of differing opinions comes the spark of truth.



Lets wrap this up and see what shoe really fits!

Hezekiah
- 13th King of Judah and reigned for 29 years. His lineage of kingship would only last another 100 years as Judea would eventually fall.
- Righteous King
- Witnessed the destruction of the kingdom of Israel
- Resisted siege of Jerusalem by Assyrians.
- Unlike his ungodly father Ahaz and son Manasseh, who he respectively succeeded and preceded in regards to Kingship he enacted worship of Yahweh and prohibited Idol worship
-Kingship under the shadow of the mighty King David who ruled over the United Kingdom and whose immediate descendants Saul and Solomon were recognised outstanding kings.

Jesus the Christ
- Jewish religious leader who became the central figure in Christianity.
- Despite teaching for only 3 ½ years and crucified to death by His own people nearly 2000 years ago His message spread far and wide. His religion is the most widespread on the planet with 2.2 billion adherents worldwide (cf 14,000,000 Judaism). Recognised to be awaited Messiah in the Hebrew Bible by His followers. Is considered by Islam (1.6 billion adherents) as being one of God’s important prophets.
- "Son of God"
- Questionable descent through male lineage to any physical kings and no known children.
- Earthly parents humble Godly people.



OK then. Lets consider each in light of Isaiah 9:7

"That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this."

"That the government may be increased"
Hezekiah - Temporal King of Judea, King of Divided Kingdom that will end within 100 years. Yet to be restored after over 2,500 years.
Christ - No actual government but spiritual inspiration of more governments that any other person on earth during known history.

"and of peace there be no end"
Hezekiah - Threat of conquest throughout temporal kingship. Resisted invasion from Assyrians. This only postponed the inevitable and his people would eventually be conquered, exiled, and be gathered together again but under the rule of the Persians, Greeks, and finally Romans until being dispersed for over 1,800 years. Despite being returned to their "Promised Land" peace remains as elusive as ever.

Jesus - The largest empire in known history the British empire was Christian.
List of largest empires - Wikipedia

Peace however has always been a double edged sword.
The majority of the most peaceful countries on earth have Christianity as their main religion.
Global Peace Index - Wikipedia
Note Israel's low ranking
Although Christianity is in decline in the West it continues to flourish in many other parts of the world.

"Upon the throne of David"
Hezekiah - Under the shadow of King David and a physical descendant through recognised male lineage

Jesus - Not a physical King and although His followers claim descent from the root of Jesse, His claims of "Son of God" bring this into question.
However arguably a spiritual descendant from King David and rules upon a spiritual Throne at the right hand side of HIs Heavenly Father.

"and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever."
As formerly mentioned:
Hezekiah - Temporal King of Judea, King of Divided Kingdom that will end within 100 years. Yet to be restored after over 2,500 years.

Christ - No actual government but spiritual inspiration of more governments that any other person on earth during known history. The highest ideals have always been to rule with justice and righteousness but like Judea's relapses into idol worship, Christian inspired government have often fallen tragically short. However the movement continues to flourish and exert spiritual vitality.

"The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this."

The facts speak for them. Hezekiah does not come remotely close to fulfilling this prophecy and Jesus the Christ partially fulfils it. At best the verses refer to Hezekiah in an allegorical manner to emphasise a Messianic prophecy but this is unlikely given that One is Peerless and Incomparable, the other mortal and temporal. Only the Messiah awaited by both Jews and Christians can completely fulfil this prophecy.

Based on your Christian translation, that's what will come out, true. I provided a somewhat different translation which you seem to have chosen to ignore.