If humans can't unite on religion, is there a purpose to religion?

[Truthseeker]

I'm not religious.

Truth isn't something else separate from the human mind. It has no consciousness or intent. It's just an abstraction.


The problem starts when people think it can be found by searching. If you don't know what what truth is, how does a person know when they find it? See how it's a trap?


Some of those folks are the one's who find it.

Of course it's not that they find it, it's that its a realization.

In addition to what I said, in all of the "revealed" religions, the Founders have sought, in my opinion, to make their followers more spiritual. Look at a religion like Christianity today for instance, which I know how Christians are like and what they are thinking because I Iive amongst them, most Christians aren't endeavoring to become more spiritual because of things like Christianity has devolved a lot to rituals and dogma rather than to spiritual precepts and there is a segment of Christians who believe that faith alone is sufficient for them to be "saved". So they are complacent about improving their behavior which goes hand-in-hand with being spiritual. The Baha'i theory is that the more you reflect the attributes of God, the more spiritual you are, which is the same as being close to God.

If the followers of the religions would actually endeavor to become more spiritual, like the Founders intended, they would be more spiritual. Religion, per se, does not work against spirituality. How it works in effect today keeps the followers from being more spiritual.

This is intended more as a counterpoint to your original post where you said that religion and spirituality are opposed to each other than the post above. If people were closer to God also, they would discover more spiritual truths, and be closer to what the truth is.

 

[Truthseeker]

How does this not apply to Christians? With about 41,000 sects Christians as a whole seem quite confused, so maybe that's because it's not the truth.

I don't know what the Christians believe now, and how they are divided, have to do with what Jesus originally taught or intended. Christianity to me is what was originally taught, what Christ intended for His followers to attain spiritually.

 

[Link]

I don't know what the Christians believe now, and how they are divided, have to do with what Jesus originally taught or intended. Christianity to me is what was originally taught, what Christ intended for His followers to attain spiritually.

There is two ways to define religion even Islam wise, to me Islam is true in the sense of what the holy Prophet taught, but it's false in the sense of what Islam is presented as today.

In my view, Quran and it's people are hidden in this age. There is no apparent religion that is totally on truth.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How will you answer your question?

IMO, nobody has ever chosen to follow a "prophet" for rational reasons.

Let's suppose no one, why don't you be different and be the first to stop this chaotic non-sense.

Plenty of people don't follow prophets at all. I'm hardly the first in this regard.

 

[Link]

IMO, nobody has ever chosen to follow a "prophet" for rational reasons.



Plenty of people don't follow prophets at all. I'm hardly the first in this regard.

1. Is your opinion a guess or on knowledge?
2. Who and what do you follow?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

1. Is your opinion a guess or on knowledge?

It's a conclusion drawn from experience.

Edit: though it's a conclusion I'll happily set aside if you show me that your choice to follow your prophet was rational.

2. Who and what do you follow?

I don't follow any person.

 

[Link]

It's a conclusion drawn from experience
I don't follow any person.

1. Is your experience enough to state it's knowledge or does it remain a guess?
2. Where do you draw your morals from?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

1. Is your experience enough to state it's knowledge or does it remain a guess?

Those aren't the only two options.

2. Where do you draw your morals from?

Why?

 

[Link]

Edit: though it's a conclusion I'll happily set aside if you show me that your choice to follow your prophet was rational.

If you accept miracles as a rational proof to a Guide chosen by God, my suggestion is ask God with a statement similar to: "God, if you are real, I am in need of proofs from you, whatever reason miracles would be hidden in this age, I am in need of them, so if you have appointed a guide that can perform them and show them, then do so and prepare my heart to accept and not accuse him of being a sorcerer if he does".

I can only show intellectual proofs, but the most type talked about in Quran, is miracles, because most humans need them to be certain.

Just wait it, be patient, and see what happens. Not saying to believe, just ask God in a humble sincere way even if you don't believe, perhaps he will send you his guardian king at a point in your life. I am not saying it will happen quick.

With peace and love brother.

 

[Link]

Those aren't the only two options.


Why?

I think you draw morals in a chaotic way, but I believe this is true of atheists in general, but, to me it's not healthy to be without a leader of guidance from God for that reason. If there is no guidance from God, morality is chaotic.

If there is no God, it doesn't seem there is a reliable way to draw guidance for love, and we can't really know who anyone really is value wise, because our morals and valuing is both chaotic.

 

[Link]

Whether an educated guess or not, knowledge is justified belief while anything less then it is some sort way conjecture which is guessing (even there is probability to it).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you accept miracles as a rational proof to a Guide chosen by God,

I don't, since miracles can't be rational proof of anything.

my suggestion is ask God with a statement similar to: "God, if you are real, I am in need of proofs from you, whatever reason miracles would be hidden in this age, I am in need of them, so if you have appointed a guide that can perform them and show them, then do so and prepare my heart to accept and not accuse him of being a sorcerer if he does".

Do you seriously think that this would be a rational way to establish anything?

I can only show intellectual proofs, but the most type talked about in Quran, is miracles, because most humans need them to be certain.

I've yet to see you present an intellectual proof of anything.

Just wait it, be patient, and see what happens. Not saying to believe, just ask God in a humble sincere way even if you don't believe, perhaps he will send you his guardian king at a point in your life. I am not saying it will happen quick.

With peace and love brother.

I think you misunderstood where I'm coming from.

I'm not looking for a religion to join or a prophet to follow. I've already dismissed your belief system as irrational and I'm not really looking to change my mind.

However, all knowledge is tentative, so if you can give a compelling case for why your worldview isn't as irrational as it seems, then go for it... but still, demonstrating that, say, leprechauns are real would be easier than demonstrating that Allah is real and that Muhammad really is his prophet.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think you draw morals in a chaotic way, but I believe this is true of atheists in general, but, to me it's not healthy to be without a leader of guidance from God for that reason. If there is no guidance from God, morality is chaotic.

God's useless as a source of morality, so this is a problem either way.

If there is no God, it doesn't seem there is a reliable way to draw guidance for love, and we can't really know who anyone really is value wise, because our morals and valuing is both chaotic.

So you reject reality because it's messy?

Some of us value the pursuit of truth over convenient, simplistic wrong answers.

 

[F1fan]

The best human on earth who would be the proof of God and word of light is definitely one and there is always such a person.

Really? Prove it. Who do you think this is?

As for the 2nd question, it's because of the sorcery of Iblis and his forces, that people don't perceive clear insights and proofs. As for the bad system, it's because we haven't accept God's chosen King. As for three, yes, unless he would force us to faith in which there would be no dignity and honor for humans left.

So you assert that objective thinkers like myself who reject these sorts of claims due to lack of evidence is due to Iblis, a being for which there is no evidence? If so, how do you know this is true versus imagined?

 

[Link]

Why do you reject the claim? Consider it a hypothesis, you can then try observing evidence of Iblis and his magic.

 

[Link]

I don't, since miracles can't be rational proof of anything.

Why is that?

 

[F1fan]

Why do you kings toreject the claim? s intellectual be

You consistently make a series of religious claims that have no basis in fact or reality. It's our responsibility as intellectual beings to demand others make claims that are rational and factual, and discern the personal beliefs that have no relevancy beyond them. This is a debate forum, not a place of fellowship.

Consider it a hypothesis, you can then try observing evidence of Iblis and his magic.

A hypothesis has to be factual and based on observations. Not only does no one observe an Iblis, no one has observed any evidence. Now if I'm wrong about that feel free to demonstrate it. Present evidence of an actual Iblis existing outside of imagination, and make sure the evidence doesn't require special interpretations or mental condition.

 

[Link]

Okay, I will make a thread.

I believe I can prove dark magic of Iblis being real.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Are you saying that those who are Christian and die knowing Jesus's message go to heaven when they die, but everyone that died before Jesus is in some type of holding pattern?

I like how you say ' holding pattern ' because all who died before Jesus died (John 3:13) are still: dead asleep.
Jesus (and the OT) both teach 'sleep in death' - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
Even King David did Not ascend - Acts of the Apostles 2:34-35 - so David is in that 'holding pattern of sleep'.
Like the others, David has to be awakened from death's deep sleep at the coming the time of Psalms 110.

Yes, people like those of Luke 22:28-30 are the ones called to heavenly life - Revelation 20:6; 2:10; 5:9-10.
Whereas the majority of people are offered the same opportunity as Adam had before his downfall.
The opportunity to live forever right here on a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden was.

If Adam had Not broken God's Law then Adam would still be alive on Earth today, and so would his descendants.
It's kind of like if you were working in your garden and someone came along and interrupted you.
Would you say because I was interrupted I am never going back to the garden, or rather, one the interruption was over you'd go back to your garden_______ Satan and Adam threw a monkey wrench into Eden's garden but that does Not mean God abandoned His garden, so once the ' sin issue ' is settled we can go back to the garden.
A beautiful paradisical Earth as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
Even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm not religious.
Truth isn't something else separate from the human mind. It has no consciousness or intent. It's just an abstraction.
The problem starts when people think it can be found by searching. If you don't know what what truth is, how does a person know when they find it?...........

I find we have various truths such as secular truth, general truth and religious truth.
Jesus found religious truth in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Being so well educated in them Jesus would base his teachings on them as religious truth.
This is why Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " It is written...." meaning already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures, thus Jesus could explain and expound Scriptures for us.